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Post election violence


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Well said Thibault. In my opinion this sort of behaviour entrenches beliefs even more so and will only make their causes ( if there really are any with the people behind this violence) more difficult to get the majority behind.
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[quote user="Thibault"]

Presumably it was one person, one vote.  Presumably everyone who wished to vote, voted.  I assume that no corruption was involved in either of the rounds.  In a democratic political system, doesn't one have to accept the verdict of the ballot box?  If you feel the  "wrong" candidate was elected in a free, fair and democratic election, surely the response is to organise and work towards voting that candidate out at the next election, rather than violent demonstrations, burning cars and burning schools etc. 

After all, isn't that the way democracy is supposed to work [:)]

[/quote]

I am in complete agreement with you here. One thing that always amazes me is how the far left are often cited as loveable extremists whilst the far right are (rightly) demonized. Let's not forget that Communist leaders are responsible for far more deaths than their Fascist counterparts - Stalin, Chairman Mao etc... Ah bless!![8-)]

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[quote user="Cjb"] Let's not forget that Communist leaders are responsible for far more deaths than their Fascist counterparts - Stalin, Chairman Mao etc... Ah bless!![8-)][/quote]

Those guys did have many, many years loner than, say Hitler, to bump their evil totals up though. Still, it's not a competition.

Where have you been for so long Cjb? It's nice to see you (and you have another dinky critter if your avatar is anything to go by.)[:)]

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Obviously those guys (gals?), like all the violent types throughout my lifetime who have protested or damaged property after this event or that event can just be called racaille or worse.  It can alse be pointed out that they are supposed to have accepted meekly and easily the veridct of the urns or whatever event sets them off.  But they don't.  I don't disagree wiht any of that.  I just wondered if anyone had thoughts other than "lock em up".  This lock em up strategy has not made them go away in France, or in America or in England.  They still pop up.  This strategy has not diminished their number, new generations take up the "scum behaviour", different colours, different countries, and people wring their hands.  I have heard the lock em up or shoot em (depends the country) response for ages.  Does anyone have other thoughts? 

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Just in case any of you would like to read a personal acccount of the violence at Place de la Bsstille.  I got sent this via another list.  I find that many people have no real personal experience of such events, and this begins to give a bit of the flavour.  Just for information, NOT for advocacy.  Its not always like you see on television.

"I (David who signed at the bottom NOT TV) was there, as you'll see, but this is mostly a

report by my friend Jen Dick who was on the other side of the

square.

As I am writing you, it is chaos outside.  Just now I

had to get up and watch the street explode with tear bomb casings, kids rushing

this and that way, hemmed in on both sides by police.  And I mean on my little

street. I am not even speaking of what has been happening on Place de la

Bastille.  And it is now 1am.  I took some water out for a few protesters whose

eyes were bright red from repeated tear gassings.  Now some of the smoke rises

up to my window, floating in to
sting lightly my nose.  This is what the new

election has already wrought, and no press anywhere.  A bit frightening, really,

the absence of the French press.  Makes one wonder whether this will be the new

attitude to protesting "report nothing, as if it never happened at all, then

continue on your merry way". I talked to some guys filming for Czech news

earlier.

Earlier, when there were masses (of mostly young people, anti

sarko and pro segolene voters) outside, I watched as people were cannoned with

water at the corner tonight, in front of Hippopatamous, and groups massed and

then fled in circles, constantly forced to circle back into la place de la

bastille by police blockades.  Long before anything was happening, the police

had formed barriers around la place.  They were decked out in their plastic

shields, helmets, shoulder and body pads.  They were waiting to get to do

something.

And certainly, the extremes of what I have seen here tonight

would not have broken down into such a series of conflicts as are still going on

this late had the police not attacked the quiet protesters who had amassed

simply to share their disappointment, their traditional flares flowing bright

red off place de la bastille around 9pm.  But the police had been sitting round

in their giant trucks all afternoon, bored and ready, so.... that is what

happens.

What, may you asked, happened?  A little after 10 some kids

getting bored with the nothingness of standing round la place in a quiet mass

came across those green construction tin sidings that you see on the streets

around parts of the road under work.  They started to drum on them, making an

impressive racket, and suddenly the soporific crowd decided to flow towards

them--and I do mean suddenly there was this flow, this mass energized, like a

river flodding all of a suddent, and I started to flow AWAY from them as did

some others--because you could feel what this would lead to.  The beating on the

panels was loud and the police along Richard Lenoir behind them seemed mal at

ease with this shifting, more active crowd, and then--before I knew it--standing

as I was, just watching people amble here and there, people suddenly were

running, in droves, towards me then past then stopped head to head with the

little blockade on rue de la bastille.  It was obvious that over by Fbg St

Antoine there had been the tear gas start, and things degenerated from there.

  Some students confronted outright the very staunch, immobile line of CRS cops

on rue de la bastille, screaming hysterically into the unperterbable police

faces things like "Why?  What were we doing to deserve this?  You don't have the

right to gas us!" etc. Others took a more diplomatic tack, but none got a single

response from this last-of-the-fallback police lines.

Eventually, the

Place de la Bastille was just a huge smoke cloud, there were bonfires that the

pompiers came and put out on occasion, and fireworks and flares went off here

and there.  Humourously, a man asked the line of CRS by my house whether he

could cross through their line and go home.  They said no, he'd have to cross

bastille to take blvd de la bastille.  The man laughed outright into the

policeman's face and pointed at the now-deserted (temporarily) place de la

bastille full of huge clouds of billowing smoke and tear gas.  He pointed and

laughed, like "yes, right, I am going to just stroll into that to head home".

Things kind of stayed in this space for awhile until the police decided

to advance, pushing their trucks into the place (on this side, I could not see

roquette or Fbg St Antoine).  Then the water cannon was brought out, shooting

people with massive gusts of water.  It was impressive how some people just

stood and took it.   A lot of people scattered I don't know where, perhaps went

home, too, others tried to leave and found themselves stuck because of police

barricades, whereas others dispersed and regrouped over and over to face off

with CRS groups.  I did see police surrounding an injured person thus keeping

them from being further trampled.  But did they also injure them in the first

place? That was not clear.  A guy behind me on his cell phone was saying "C'est

mai 68 ici" though I did think that was a bit exagerrated.  I heard glass

windows had been broken on cafés and shops across the way, but could not go out

and verify that myself.  Black smoke paired with the light grey tear gas smoke

in place de la bastille as bonfires filled the air. 

Later, people

dispersed even more, then regrouped at the edge of my street, then dispersed

again until I thought everyone had gone home.  A silence ensued, but on occasion

there are these groups running round, confronting and being confronted by the

police.  I can hear them now, far off, on occasion BOOOing, on occasion chanting

or shrieking, on occasion accompanied by sounds like what that watercannon

sounded like, but I cannot see it anymore. 

But now that it is 2am the

traffic is starting to return to the center and this is a sign that people have

generally headed home for now.

Another friend (David B) says he

also was out on the opposite side of bastille where, it was "tear gas, full on

riot....we were on bastille... didn't get water canonned... we weren't on the

steps or near the column by that time.. because we fled tear gas down roquette

and sheltered in Quick... for a long time there was so much gas you couldnt get

out for more than a minute... and police sealed off the street at rue de

lappe...windows were broken down charonne and also ledru rollin...opera stpes

looked good because above the gas" He says he could see broken windows at "that

furniture shop at the metro sortie faubourg st antione... then a crowd running

down charonne from tear gas smashed lots of stuff" He also said, and this is

what I noticed too: "Atmosphere was so strange - half "this is a game" and half

"you bastard fascists how can you do this? lets get the fascists"

Well

thought you all might like to know that this is what Bastille was like, since it

may never make the news.  Night

Jen

I hadn't realised that

it was banging on the metal screens that made that noise - I thought it was the

police banging on thier shields. I saw a couple of things thrown at the police

before they attacked but I agree that it was a brutal attack on an almost

entirely peaceful crowd.

Spoke to people who'd been clubbed for no reason as

well as gassed and girls who'd done a peaceful sit-in protest who were

watercannoned... the water had some agent in it like the tear gas that made your

whole body burn all over where it soaked through your clothes or touched your

skin.

 

What was the police intention, I wonder?

To punish people for

protesting?

Maybe it was a premeptive attack?

Intended to start a

riot?

 

I think if they'd ignorred us we'd have continued to feel

depressed and disempowered by the election vote. Attacking us made us oddly

elated and gave us a chance to vent our anger - whether by shouting, or by

refusing to move despite tear gas and water cannon ("Resistance" was one of the

chants) or - for a small minority - by starting bonfires and throwing bottles

and stones.

 

Cheers all,

David

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When one thinks of the number of people that have lost their lives fighting for democracy, I find it very difficult to sympathise with those who are violently protesting against it. Would we be so understanding of far-right violent protests in reaction to a Segolene Royal victory? Me thinks not! Extremism is extremism whether it be on the left or the right - in fact the two extremes tend to have quite a lot in common.
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[quote user="Cjb"]When one thinks of the number of people that have lost their lives fighting for democracy, I find it very difficult to sympathise with those who are violently protesting against it. [/quote]

That's true, but don't forget the paradox about democracy, that it can vote itself out of existence.   Maybe they think that's what's happened, that the electorate have been fooled into voting for someone who's not that interested in democracy?

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[quote user="Cjb"]When one thinks of the number of people that have lost their lives fighting for democracy, I find it very difficult to sympathise with those who are violently protesting against it. Would we be so understanding of far-right violent protests in reaction to a Segolene Royal victory? Me thinks not! Extremism is extremism whether it be on the left or the right - in fact the two extremes tend to have quite a lot in common.[/quote]

Actually I am not sure I have noticed much understanding, either in the sense of sympathy, or in the sense of ability to explain and relate to this violence.  The reason I have been intervening, and not very successfully, is to find out if anyone has anything very different to say about such people and their actions.  That is, anything other than that they should not do it, that they are probably people not worthy of understanding, that they should be busted and put in jail like any other criminals, and that their actions are without any kind of rationality or logic.  So far that's all we have got.  Mabye that's all there is, either on this forum, or for any people who do any kind of politically motivated violence.  Fair enough.  Its not like its a new phenomenon though.  And its not like it will stop.  Perhaps the usual hand wringing, wishing it would not happen and putting them in jail (or just beating them up a bit) is not the solution that works.  The jails are very full in the the UK and in France.

What is it that you think the "extremes" have in common, other than being not in the centre?

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It's a tough one 13W.  If one says anything that in any way appears to condone violence, one will be shot down in flames, and I guess that's right.  I've always been a great believer in protest but am completely anti-violence in any form.  However, it is very easy to see how, faced with this situation, these things get out of hand.  Especially with a police force which appears tooled up and ready for combat at the first scent of trouble.

It is easy to see how a sense of dis-enfrachisement (sp?) leads to this sort of thing.  You are angry.  On your own, in a small group, that anger probably stays at the verbal level.  In a big group of people who feel similarly angry, it manifests itself in a physical way.  The big problem for the protestors is that in fact it just works against their cause because those who might have some sympathy with their arguments, feel morally bound to condemn them for their actions alone because it goes against their own - not unreasonable - code of conduct.

Somebody said above that the non-violent solution should be the political one.  They should work hard to strengthen their political base so that their preferred candidate gets in next time.  However, the problem is that these people do not have a political voice, do they?  In fact many of them do not have a voice at all and they see a future which is worse than a few days in jail.  It is easy for us, on the whole those who are joining in this debate can string a sentence together.  We can express ourselves easily and say what we mean.  The frustration for a huge section of society is that this is not available to them.  They don't really know what it is that makes them angry, or how to change it.  Their anger is, I suspect, the only thing they have left, and violence the only way they have left to express it.

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[quote user="TreizeVents"][quote user="Cjb"]When one thinks of the number of people that have lost their lives fighting for democracy, I find it very difficult to sympathise with those who are violently protesting against it. Would we be so understanding of far-right violent protests in reaction to a Segolene Royal victory? Me thinks not! Extremism is extremism whether it be on the left or the right - in fact the two extremes tend to have quite a lot in common.[/quote]

Actually I am not sure I have noticed much understanding, either in the sense of sympathy, or in the sense of ability to explain and relate to this violence.  The reason I have been intervening, and not very successfully, is to find out if anyone has anything very different to say about such people and their actions.  That is, anything other than that they should not do it, that they are probably people not worthy of understanding, that they should be busted and put in jail like any other criminals, and that their actions are without any kind of rationality or logic.  So far that's all we have got.  Mabye that's all there is, either on this forum, or for any people who do any kind of politically motivated violence.  Fair enough.  Its not like its a new phenomenon though.  And its not like it will stop.  Perhaps the usual hand wringing, wishing it would not happen and putting them in jail (or just beating them up a bit) is not the solution that works.  The jails are very full in the the UK and in France.

What is it that you think the "extremes" have in common, other than being not in the centre?
[/quote]

I can appreciate what Cooperlola is saying but violence will only hurt their cause in my opinion (perhaps someone can explain to me what this cause is other than the fact they are not happy with the election results). TV, you appear to be unhappy with what has been said so far because people feel these violent actions and protests are wrong. I take it that the only response you would really like to see is an understanding of the violent reactions and perhaps to give in to them and let them have what they want, the candidate that was not elected by the majority. Maybe I'm wrong.

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