inheritance.no kids!!

[Guest CFrost]

Hi everyone, just had a thought or two.  We make the permanent move finally after 3 false starts mid november.  We have changed to the Communate universal (is that how you spell it??) for inheritance to the surviving spouse (thats me) But as we have no kids and the french law doesn't recognise  english wills, how do we go about nominating a neice to receive our estate (whatever is left of course) to do with as we have discussed, which means spend the lot and have a jolly good time doing so But seriously, how do we go about arranging this, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful.

many thanks in advance

kimberley

[Alexis]

Someone will be more up to date than me but I don't think that you can arrange this.  There are strict inheritance rules here and I believe that if you don't have children, it is brothers and sisters who come first.  I am not sure about parents....

I am like you.  Spend the lot.

[anneb]

Over the last three years I was quite involved in French inheritance law as first my mother and then my father, who lived in France, died. I found an invaluable guide here http://www.prettys.co.uk/personal_law/french_property/services.shtml

Download the Introductory Guide to French Succession Law and French Inheritance Tax.

You can't get round the héritiers réservataires (protected heirs) bit. If you don't have children then the next people who inherit your stuff are your parents, then your brothers and sisters and so on in a very similar way to English Intestate Law. However, I believe there is a portion of your estate that you can leave to whomsoever you will and for which you would therefore have to write a French Will for, but I would advise you to see a notaire about this.

If you have anything left in England, either bank accounts, shares or property, that complicates things further because even though it comes under French Law your executors have to obtain English Probate which is a minefield compared to French Inheritance Law !

bw's

Anne

[Loiseau]

...I believe there is a portion of your estate that you can leave to whomsoever you will ...

 

Trouble is, if they are not a close relative, they may end up having to pay - I think - 70 per cent tax on the value of what you leave in this way.
A notaire told me that my house will go to my only daughter. Fine, but I'd have liked to cut my stepchildren in equally too.  He was horrified at that suggestion - or even that I should leave them that small slice you mention - because of the tax implications for them.

Angela

www.the-vendee.co.uk

[Guest CFrost]

HI everyone, thanks for your replies.  Some very interesting reading coming up!  Will check out notaire and solicitors, failing that, the only thing left would be to spend the lot before we go upstairs

thanks again

kimberley

[anneb]

Hi Kimberley,

My turn to ask you a question - how did you go about changing your marriage contrct to Communate Universalle ? Was it easy ?

From further reading, it looks like if you have no children, grandchildren, parents or grandparents, you have no 'protected heirs' which means you can leave your money to who you like but you will have to write a French Will to specify who (and English Will if you have assests in England which rreflects exactly your French Will).

bw's

Anne

[Guest CFrost]

Hi Anneb

We found it quite painless as the immobilier organised all the details with the notaire during the purchase of our house.  All he needed to do it was a copy of our marriage license, birth certificates and residence ID and that was it.  It was all signed and completed on the same day as the house and cost wise I think it was about 300 euro.  Have a chat with your local notaire and he/she should be able to do it for you.

Hope this helps

Kimberley

Chadeniers 17

[anneb]

Hi Kimberley,

Thanks, I'll write to our notaire. As you might have guessed, we inherited our house and put for our marriage contract "sans contract" - l certainly wasn't thinking of our future inheritance matters at the time and the notaire wasn't either. I imagine we'll have to get things changed on the house documents. :-(

bw's

Anne

[azor04]

Hi,

I spoke to my notaire last March about this as I am not married and have no children.

1/4 of your french estate goes to each parent (provided they are alive).  The remainder will go to your siblings in equal shares.  However, if you want to bypass this process hence in your case leaving it to your niece (only siblings part), then you need to provide your notaire with following details

Name, address, date of birth, name of parents.  Also if your niece is not alive by then who your estate goes to eg her husband, kids or someone else.

I was given a fee of 150euros for this work.  However, if I want to make alterations at a later date it will cost me a lot more.

Hope this helps

 

 

[joanhomerJoan Homer]

Don't know if this helps, but earlier this year I was helping sort out the affairs of a recently deceased friend. He was English, had lived over here for 14 years, but had made an English will leaving his house to an English friend. The notaire told us that as an English resident he was entitled to do this and that therefore, as regards the provisions of the will, English law takes precedence (ie. no héritiers réservataires, even though his mother is still alive). Once probate has been granted in the UK the French notaire will take care of the inheritance tax side of things.

Warning though : the inheritance tax is due 6 months from the date of death and in the case of my friend, with there being no blood relationship, kicks in at the monumental rate of 60% ! Something my friend hadn't considered when leaving the property with the intention it should be used as a holiday home - the only way to pay the tax will be to sell the house. Could have been better organised !

Bon courage anyway,

 

[anneb]

An English Will won't hold up in France if it goes against the rights of protected heirs. If there are no protected heirs then it will be fine. But if there are no protected heirs then it is REALLY VITAL that a French Will is written.

If, for some unfortunate reason, only an English Will has been written then that will have to be shown to the deceased's notaire for them to register it before it is given to the English Probate Registry. The Probate Registry will not begin the process of granting Probate until they have certified copies of the Acte de Notoriété or the Certificat d'Hérédité pertaining to the deceased, and those cannot be given until the French notaire knows by the Will who the deceased property and assets are going to. The Probate Registry will not begin the process of Probate until they have one of those two documents, certified, and a certified translation, because they cannot grant Probate unless they are sure that what the Will says is in accordance with the Law of the deceased's country of domicile...and they have to have proof of it with reference to the individual, not the law in general.

If a person has property or assets in both countries it is therefore essential to write both an English Will and a French Will which should not contradict each other nor invalidate each other in any way.

bw's

Anne

[anneb]

Hi Joan,

Just re-reading your email....and see my previous mail, but a parent (the mother) is an héritier réservataire, and French law applies to French property, whether or not the deceased was domiciled in France or England. But from my understanding of your mail your friend was domiciled in France and therefore all his assets, both English and French, come under French inheritance law. I think the notaire has got it wrong.

As well as that, few notaires know the complexities of English Probate....few English people do ! If your friend was domiciled in France, Probate won't be granted until the Probate Registry have certified confirmation of your friend's 'succession' as declared by the French notaire.

bw's

Anne

[joanhomerJoan Homer]

Hi Anne,

You seem very knowledgable on this topic; are you a lawyer yourself ?

As to the situation with my friend's will, I simply explained what the notaire told us. He has a copy of the will and the Probate Registry are dealing with things at the UK end currently. That's as much as I know at the moment. The beneficiary was planning to see an English lawyer also qualified in french law so whether that will raise further questions, we'll have to wait and see.

As I said before, my friend didn't really organise things very well in the end, unfortunately. He had previously owned the property through an SCI jointly with his partner who predeceased him. Following that he should have ensured that his beneficiary replaced his partner as part-owner of the SCI; this apparently would largely have avoided the problems we have encountered. Unfortunately, in spite of having been diagnosed with prostate cancer 5 years ago, then bowel cancer, he put off doing anything about it, thus leaving his friend in a mess and ensuring that the house has to be sold. A pity, because that's not what he intended.

Joan

[Patmobile]

I'm sure someone will be able to correct me if I'm wrong on this. I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that, if there are no protected heirs, and you want to leave your estate to someone not closely related without them becoming liable to punitive rates of inheritance tax, you can legally adopt your chosen heir or heirs.

This makes them your protected heirs, and the rate of taxation (if any) on the estate is reduced.

[Will]

I understand legal adoption can work in the case of stepchildren, even when they are no longer minors, though I have also heard that some lawyers in France are reluctant to advise this as they see it as tax evasion (rather than avoidance) which of course is illegal.

I've never heard of people adopting any other relations/friends/business associates etc though I suppose it could be possible, and is an interesting thought. Although because the sole reason for doing this would seem to be to get out of paying inheritance tax, it may not be acceptable to the authorities.

[anneb]

[quote]Hi Anne, You seem very knowledgable on this topic; are you a lawyer yourself ? As to the situation with my friend's will, I simply explained what the notaire told us. He has a copy of the will and...[/quote]

Hi Joan,

I'm not a lawyer, but my parents lived in France for over thirty years and when my mother died three years ago I was involved with French inheritance and then when my father died a year later I was involved in it again only more so as I was the executor of my father's English Will. Even though my parents had done everything more or less 'right', the process was still complicated and convoluted, not to say highly stressful, and I had a massive amount of work to do for the Probate Registery to enable them to Grant Probate - Probate only being needed if the deceased has any assets in England as banks etc in England will only release assets on production of Grant of Probate. English banks etc do not recognise the French Certificat d'Hérédité or Acte de Notoriété which you could loosely call the French equivalent. Conversley, in France English Probate is not recognised, but the Certificat d'Hérédité or Acte de Notoriété are easy to obtain by comparison ! Because I was so very much involved with the Probate Registry and because Probate is not straight forward I became very involved with the French notaire's side of things too.

Anyway, when an English person dies domiciled in France (living there for more than 183 days of the year) then the Probate Registry will be very concerned before they grant Probate to see that they will not be breaking the inheritance laws of France, and so they will need to see certified copies of all French inheritance documents relating to the deceased before they will issue the Grant. If your friend only stayed in France for holidays totaling less than 183 days per year then his domicile will be England and things should be straight forward....but I see you say he lived in France for 14 years !

If your friend's house was purchased with an SCI then it's true that it can be left to whoever the deceased wills as it's not covered by French inheritance law apart from the tax side, but that is if the deceased dies domiciled in England. If an English person is living in France for more than 183 days of the year then both the French and English will count them as domiciled in France and then all their worldwide assets come under French inheritance law.

I think your friend's beneficiary would do well to get in touch with your deceased friend's executor in England at this stage in time ! I see you say she is seeing a lawyer specialising in French law....yes that's what I did too and this lawyer tried to get things moving at the Probate Registry and was practically tearing her hair out !

bw's

Anne

[pj roberts]

Hello

I'm new to a lot of this stuff, and find it very interesting and informative. But can someone please tell me what are "protected heirs" . Thanks John

[anneb]

Hi John,

'Protected heirs' (héritiers réservataires): under French Inheritance Law you cannot leave your assets to whoever you want like you can under English Inheritance Law. The 'reserved portion' has to go to your 'protected heirs' first. These protected heirs are firstly your children and, if there are none, your parents. The 'reserved portion' when there are children, is half if there is one child, two thirds if there are two children, three quarters if there are three children and so on. You cannot cut your children out of your will under French law. Even illegitimate children have equal rights to legitimate ones. Children and parents come before spouses who are not 'protected' which is why there's always so much discussion about this on this forum and others. I don't know what the reserved portion is if there are no children and only parents...it's too complicated !

If you are domiciled in France (that is living there more than 183 days out of the year) then all your worldwide assets come under French Law. If you are domiciled in the UK then only your French property comes under French law.

Hope this helps !

Anne

[pj roberts]

Thanks Anne

That's made a few things clearer. I have no children, and my elderly parents are unlikely to outlive me. Does that mean that my partner (we might marry one day)would be next in line to inherit my tumble down shell in Normandy, or would my sister be next in line ?

Thanks

John

[anneb]

Hi John,

It says in the guide to French successon law that I posted the link to in an earlier post, that :

"Your surviving spouse is a protected heir if you have no living decendants or ascendants. Other relatives or unmarried partners are not protected heirs".

So from my reading of that, your partner would be a protected heir if you do get married, once your parents have passed on that is, but if you don't get married you'd have no protected heirs once your parents are gone in which case it would be vital that you write a French Will clearly stating your wishes so that you do not die 'intestate' under French law.

bw's

Anne

[anneb]

PS... see my mail above...if you die 'intestate'' your sister would inherit.

[pj roberts]

Thanks again Anne. I'd better start preparing myself for an offer of marriage !

John