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Re: Alcohol - addiction and its treatment


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Gemini man,

I am unable to give you a full reply as I am under sanction from the mods not to speak my mind. You may not know this. If I do they will ban me for being inane, for not conforming to their rules and for interrupting what they consider to be the flow of the debate. In this context that boils down to censorship as alternatives may not be explored. But that does not stop you throwing pretty gross words at me.

Perhaps you might like to read the three starter research reference I quoted as they will maybe begin to explain the complexity of the problem.

You may also like to consider the motives of  those who confess in public forums to serious conditions.

I would also remind you that this is a commercial forum dedicated to successful living in France and to rose coloured spectacles. The debate we would have would not be in that tradition and would therefore be inappropriate. On the other hand if you want to have a squabble then I am up for it. You know where I hang out. Bring some of the others from this thread and lets get at it. (That is an invitation not a threat)

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For reference here are the links and relevant part of the text that WB posted in the Alcohol thread:

Here are three starter references for anyone who seriously wants to get into this, but beware, it is a huge field:

http://adam.about.com/reports/000056_7.htm

http://www.doctordeluca.com/Library/AbstinenceHR/EffectivenessAlcRx05.htm

http://www.doctordeluca.com/Library/AbstinenceHR/EffectivenessAlcRx05.pdf

Quite clearly I favour one set of approaches whilst others favour alternatives. What is certain is that 12 step and group sessions are not the only way to go, nor is public confession.

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Wooly,

I have no problem with you or your views and I would forcefully defend the right for anyone to speak out if and when they feel strongly on a subject.

My problem is simply that I feel, and it would appear so do some others, that your posts are denying Chris Head and indeed Meg to raise a subject in public that affects many of us.

I am not saying that you or your daughter are wrong in your opinions but I am saying you do not and should not have the right to stifle discussion of a subject in an open forum because you disagree with it.

And on the subject of the moderation of these forums I personally am firmly in favour of mods doing their job otherwise any contentious debate would end in a verbal punch up and I'm not interested in that.

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My objection to the contents of the other thread is essentially visceral and stems from a deep suspicion of public display. Please read the two togehter. I realise that what I offer is not part of the trendy tripe that has held sway for a long time, but then that is for others  not me to think about. My view is not a solitary one as there have been a number of messages of support, but in private. The research articles mentioned in the other thread will indicate that the public route is by no means the only successful one.

I believe nothing can be served by the public statement of woes. As a model it is meaningless and an example useless one has been a direct part of that experience. I believe it to be part of an attention seeking behaviour which is part of the original problem and not a solution; It is similar to the church confessions of the type "I am a sinner look what I have done, now I am redeemed". And the more detail the better. And the rather prurient searching for detail is also rewarding to the confessor and to the confessee. The former is rewarded with more attention, the latter with satisfaction and possibility of offering a kind of absolution to the victim. We are in the territory of the Daily Mail and Sun.

So, that is largely why I tried to state a dislike of what was happening on the parallel thread which I found ugly and unnecessary.

The thread was/is essentially sterile as it did not attempt to offer any constructive way forward from confession, no routes, no ideas, no strategies. As such it was pointless beyond a siren call of good resolutions. Like New year's Resolutions. Which are not kept because there is no plan as to how to keep them.

However a discussion of how to stop becoming and alkie or how to have a chance of beating it once there might be interesting and certainly of more use.

So, if you have had problems with booze (lets leave the heavy stuff out of it perhaps), what are your strategies for dealing with it and how do they stack up against the research? Game for a shout?

 

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[quote user="Gemini_man"]Wooly,

I have no problem with you or your views and I would forcefully defend the right for anyone to speak out if and when they feel strongly on a subject.

My problem is simply that I feel, and it would appear so do some others, that your posts are denying Chris Head and indeed Meg to raise a subject in public that affects many of us.

I am not saying that you or your daughter are wrong in your opinions but I am saying you do not and should not have the right to stifle discussion of a subject in an open forum because you disagree with it.

And on the subject of the moderation of these forums I personally am firmly in favour of mods doing their job otherwise any contentious debate would end in a verbal punch up and I'm not interested in that.


[/quote]

Where I had a major problem is that noone sought to challenge what was actually happening with the public confessions and that they were taken at face value. I did not seek to stifle it beyond registering my objection because I entered at a time when, I think, the essential of the public confessing had taken place. I was also shocked at the sycophantic tone of the congratulations which were offered.

And as I said above, the failure to offer a really useful insight into "how" to go about this which would have really have been useful to those of us who drink too much or who think we have a problem.

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WB.

I will start by suggesting that your sarcastic first post in this thread is unecessary, unwarranted and, IMHO, rather silly.

There are plenty of other fora on the internet, dedicated to confrontational argument.

This forum is operated by a large advertising and marketing group as part of their commitment to the virtual World and is free.

Since it is the premier forum on France and things French, the majority of members are very grateful to be allowed the privilege of participation: myself included. It is a highly valuable resource, since it numbers many members with probably the best hands-on knowledge of actually living in France and coming to terms with statutory realities and regulations; as well as some excellent knowledge-based areas which are extremely useful. Let's respect these parameters.

To business:

The website references you provided are hardly representative of either mainstream psychological professionals or collective opinion. Indeed the first is in fact a commercial operation as part of a search engine.

The second states papers presented by two individuals. One swallow rarely makes a Summer.

The best starting source is surely the professional body websites in the UK and the USA?

On the british site reference I posted earlier in the thread, there is copious practical data concerning both Group and other pyschotherapies. To me, that represents a cogent starting point.

I'll provide it again:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/4/1052166/ShowPost.aspx#1052166

CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy), is now seen as probably the greatest single step forward in the practical treatment of a range of personal, mental and psychiatric disorders. There is one core problem: there are too few fully trained practitioners as yet.

As with so many things, in the UK, mental health funding (which covers a very wide area of problems, many of them common and increasingly prevalent) is derisory. Which has allowed the cowboys and the lunatic fringe into the equation; sadly. "Counsellors" using ersatz CBT, NLP and other "Therapies" are even being employed by PCTs (Primary Care Tr usts  (The same bunch who employ the GPs) as an outsource, which should be deeply worrying to most.

The internet, of course, is awash with "Health" resources; a few very good, the majority pretty awful! Many are of course masquerading as a health resource when they are either advertising sites trying to sell herbal remedies et al, or US based businesses promising cures for everything from cancer to warts.

Now when I studied psychology, formally at college, I well remember our lead lecturer telling us to write a book on psychology when we graduated: since no one could prove we were wrong! The economics lecturer stated the same thing!

Personally, I would not go against mainstream professional opinion, unless I was totally convinced by empirical experience and evidence.

You seem to want to, based on the rather remote fact that your daughter is a psychiatrist; sadly unless you can point me at learned papers, research work, experimental research with control groups, I would be hard put to accept your point of view, entitled as you are to it. It's my cynical academic training wot does it!

 

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

WB.

I will start by suggesting that your sarcastic first post in this thread is unecessary, unwarranted and, IMHO, rather silly.

There are plenty of other fora on the internet, dedicated to confrontational argument.

This forum is operated by a large advertising and marketing group as part of their commitment to the virtual World and is free.

Since it is the premier forum on France and things French, the majority of members are very grateful to be allowed the privilege of participation: myself included. It is a highly valuable resource, since it numbers many members with probably the best hands-on knowledge of actually living in France and coming to terms with statutory realities and regulations; as well as some excellent knowledge-based areas which are extremely useful. Let's respect these parameters.

To business:

The website references you provided are hardly representative of either mainstream psychological professionals or collective opinion. Indeed the first is in fact a commercial operation as part of a search engine.

The second states papers presented by two individuals. One swallow rarely makes a Summer.

The best starting source is surely the professional body websites in the UK and the USA?

On the british site reference I posted earlier in the thread, there is copious practical data concerning both Group and other pyschotherapies. To me, that represents a cogent starting point.

I'll provide it again:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/4/1052166/ShowPost.aspx#1052166

CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy), is now seen as probably the greatest single step forward in the practical treatment of a range of personal, mental and psychiatric disorders. There is one core problem: there are too few fully trained practitioners as yet.

As with so many things, in the UK, mental health funding (which covers a very wide area of problems, many of them common and increasingly prevalent) is derisory. Which has allowed the cowboys and the lunatic fringe into the equation; sadly. "Counsellors" using ersatz CBT, NLP and other "Therapies" are even being employed by PCTs (Primary Care Tr usts  (The same bunch who employ the GPs) as an outsource, which should be deeply worrying to most.

The internet, of course, is awash with "Health" resources; a few very good, the majority pretty awful! Many are of course masquerading as a health resource when they are either advertising sites trying to sell herbal remedies et al, or US based businesses promising cures for everything from cancer to warts.

Now when I studied psychology, formally at college, I well remember our lead lecturer telling us to write a book on psychology when we graduated: since no one could prove we were wrong! The economics lecturer stated the same thing!

Personally, I would not go against mainstream professional opinion, unless I was totally convinced by empirical experience and evidence.

You seem to want to, based on the rather remote fact that your daughter is a psychiatrist; sadly unless you can point me at learned papers, research work, experimental research with control groups, I would be hard put to accept your point of view, entitled as you are to it. It's my cynical academic training wot does it!

 

[/quote]

My first post at the top of this thread was in fact a response to a post preceding it, before the threads were split, and also relates to a situation that inhibits my answering in the way I would have liked.

The research papers were starting points for discussion and are no better or worse than any of the British stuff. I was pointed towards one by an MD. They cannot be distinguished any more than can the British ones. My practical references are not British as I have not ever really lived there but that there is a use of partly trained semi-professionals to carry out these addiction services does not surprise me.

What is clear as RH says is that the approach exemplified by the beginnings of the other post are by no means the only acceptable ones and one has the right to object to them. You are very right that CBT is proving an extremely valuable (but not perfect) tool in fighting addiction.

I have already stated what I think happened at the head of the other thread last night.

However, where are the strategies that enable people to deal the problem, put in place by individuals or professionals (eg the Priory)?

OK, I'll start.

1. Dont keep booze of any sort in the house

2. Dont go through the booze section of the supermarket.

3. Avoid habit situations which involve booze, eg meeting in a bar or cafe

4. Have a single intimate person who you can confide in or fone, preferably a professional with whom you have worked out your strategies.

5. Admit the underlying problems: you might be bored out of your skull in France, your marriage might be bad etcetc and addrress these.

6  Do not feel you have to shout your problems from the roof tops or share them with all and sundry. Certainly do not feel you have to shake hands with        everyone and state "Hi I'm X and I'm an alcoholic. Your problem is common which you know, but you don't have to make it public.

OK guys, how about you add strategies that might be useful to other people facing this problem.......

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Wooly,

There is little in your last post that I disagree with. I am not a sheep and far more likely to shy away from any popularist redemption theory than be attracted to or influenced by it. Indeed anything Evangelical or Gospelish leaves me colder than cold ie. it would have a negative effect.

I have cancelled the rest of this post because the thread is moving too fast making it somewhat irrelevant!!

But I will say: many of us may have a perceived alcohol problem, even if not admitted, simply because we either drink too much or too regularly. This is the point I would be interested in discussing rather than the "how should I best deal with being an alcoholic" point of view.

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I am now slightly uncertain as to which of these "alcohol" threads to pose my thoughts on.  To answer you, Wooly, I do hear what you are trying to say and I do sense your frustration with trying to get your viewpoint across.  However, you must understand that not everyone wants, or finds helpful, your sort of cut-and-dried scientific solution, based on research by Professor this and Doctor that.

The human condition encompasses more than bare facts, "provable" formulae and reductionist you-do-this-and-you-end-up-with-this scenarios.  There is another dimension which is not so easily pinned down.

You might scoff and question all you like, Wooly, but there are "miracles" for want of a better word.  Reaching out, sharing experiences, gaining strength and support, loving and being loved; I could go on but, being an intelligent person, you will not need me to spell it all out.  THAT was Chris and Meg and people who know them through the forum, having a healing and encouraging experience.

You can be sure that there is nothing wrong with that.  It's not about weakness versus strength or self-discipline versus professional help, or even an individual versus a group.  It's just people being distressed, getting over things, needing to reach out and having that comforting, answering press of the hand or reassuring post.

Strangely, I don't believe that you are actually being deliberately contentious on this occasion.  I do genuinely think you can't see the other (diametrically opposite) viewpoint to yours.  Just accept and be generous, Wooly.  That way, you'd maybe end up being more relaxed about what goes on out there in the world and have a better perception of your own part and purpose within it.

Finish for now and hope I don't have to write such a long post again.  I don't mind the brickbats if anyone wants to throw some of those in my direction.  

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One way forward is that of breaking habits. There are dozens of these which have to be perceived individually. Thus, for example, it is say 1700hrs therefore time to go through the rictuals of  choosing, opening a bottle, the smelling, savouring etc. I suspect (no proof) this applies as much to an alcohol habit as to an addiction. So, replace the habit with something else, say preparing vegetables for dinner or somesuch.

Underlying all this may be other causes. Your life is boring or needs filling (often the case in France in  winter). Look carefully at what resources you have or could develop. The old clichĂ©s of hard work are all very well but there are thousands of others too. Write a thousand words a day (my solution). Get on a Forum or two. The solutions are legion.

 

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What I know, from posts on here and elsewhere, is that both our wooly fruit and Gluey are sensible and thoughtful chaps both, in spite of what tiny, out-of-context snippets of the above might initially lead one to believe!

I think Wooly makes a good point, and to a certain extent I'm a little sorry that this argument got separated from the other thread because to my mind it is relevant. Whereas the AA approach, and public confession stuff undoubteldy work for some, the danger always seems to me to be, that if it goes unopposed and unquestioned then some - especially on public and open fora - may be tempted to do likewise on a whim, and regret it - or suffer because of it - at some time in the future.

I don't know a great deal about the field - apart from what I have learnt from a close brush with the profession when dealing with a private family matter - but what I do know, from bitter experience, is that some vulnerable personality types often clutch, unprepared and undiagnosed, at any straw which might appear to be available to them.  If it is the wrong one, the results can be truly devastating.  Anybody approaching any psychological problem - alcohol, drug related, or any mental illness - needs to do so with great care and professional properly qualified help, before jumping on the first available bandwagon that comes along.

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JohnEric:

That is as one has come to expect, an excellent post and contains much condensed wisdom!

I am a great little believer in empiricism: i.e. if it works, don't knock it!

This was proven to me quite a few years ago (from memory, about 25??), with accupuncture.

At that time the mainstream medical profession scorned it as hocus pocus and stated in unequivocable terms that it was valuless.

When President Nixon was negotiating with China to re-open relations, he sent a senior aide, an ex naval very senior officer. This chap unfortunately suffered acute appendicitis whilst in what we used to call Peking. The Chinese offered him their top surgeon and facilities. He was neatly in a cleft stick! Did he refuse and the Chinese lose face? In the end, a subtle compromise was reached. The Chinese surgeon would carry out the operation and a senior ex-naval surgeon from Johns Hopkins would "Watch".

Next came the choice of anaesthetic: would he have Western or Chinese? The Chinese turned out to be accupuncture!

In the end he chose accupuncture (brave man!) and suffered absolutely no pain as he watched his own appendix being removed, in a theatre as good as any in the USA!

Since that time, accupuncture has been accepted by many mainstream practitioners as a valuable aid to alleviating pain as well as improving certain conditions.

I know: I've had it and it works!

As one leading US doc was honest enought to report" My Hypocratic Oath requires me to alleviate pain and suffering: this does with no known side effects. Therefore I simply must use it!"

So the point of this over-long rambling tale is that if Chris and Mog or indeed anyone finds value, support and help in kicking their problem through let's call it "Open Forum Therapy" or OFT if you like, great!

It's probably a valuable support after they have been through the professional treatment post the initial trauma: not a substitute for that, of course.

Same with Group Therapy: some love it and find it extremely helpful: some hate it and many would, I'm sure hate it since they are private people who believe mainly in self-help. Which, of course, many New Wave therapies support, like Self Accualisation and Transactional Analysis, since they assist people to "find themself". Which is the aim, really, of CBT: it is focused on the patient dispelling perceptional assumptions and programmed reactions to a series of conventional stimuli. You could almost call it "De-Brainwashing"!

That said, there is one not so obvious danger in the Self Helpers; and this is, that the very act of bottling up any problem and being incapable of sharing it and airing the realities of their misgivings, can lead to excessive introspection; and eventually introprospection, which is probably why they have the problem in the first place!

The reference on alcoholism and a Self Help Analysis, BTW, WB, is pretty standard stuff for any addictive compulsive disorder, be it drugs, alchohol, eating disorders, chocoholism whatever.

The problems with psychology, of course, are that it's firstly highly subjective and second, clinically it's case-based: and all cases tend to enjoy wildly different components! No one can prove you wrong, as I said before!

With enough investment, more practical, effective and useful tools and treatments would become available. The cash simply aint there!

 

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Dunno what I think of WB's approach, much of it is way too complicated for me to follow.

If I may speak in my language....

Bottom line is that we all find ourselves in situations in life from time to time that have enveloped us, to get ourselves out of them and back to a place that we feel comfortable with, or onto safer or healthier ground seems a whole lot more difficult than what we did to get ourselves into them; especially addictions.

In my experience...trauma (such as bereavement, violent death, violence, an accident, betrayal etc), genetic makeup, societal (is that a word?) pressure (professional, social & financial) can all lead to a mental state that leaves a person susceptible to wanting to seek comfort from something....and one day you find yourself up to your eyes in the crap and thinking there's not many places to turn.

Getting oneself out of the crap, properly and long term is no way an overnight thing, knowing now what I do I recognise the complexities involved in thoroughly getting well, it has to come from within, nobody can do it for you apart from yourself...the pro's are there to help but can't make you well...and it 'aint gonna happen overnight.

There are so many things to address but the first is to be absolutely and brutally truthful to yourself, identifying anything and everything that doesn't fit in your life and that should be changed, relationships for example; marriage, 'friends', work collegeagues...are they right? For example I lived with somebody who had been a heavy drinker since the age of 17 or 18 (I was teetotal up to the age of 29), all of our 'friends' where not of my choosing, I didn't have very much control of who 'invaded' my personal space qnd now in my sober state I wouldn't want to share time with that person again.

Work...I took the safe route and did stuff that in truth bored me to tears; but my responsibilities always seemed so much more important than what I wanted to do, after all you don't gamble when there are people relying on you to feed them do you?

Time off....I personally never learned how to, that in itself is a disease; I'm a grafter and never knew when or how to stop...that is one of the harder aspects of getting well again: I spent some time the other day with somebody I'm very close to and we did absolutely nothing apart from walk and talk! It was one of the best days since I can't remember when, it was like spiritual food and I learned masses that day.

Physical health & mental health....the biggie...I could write pages on the subject; but it's the same as the rest of it, brutal truth and honesty have got to be the starting point, hard work, discipline, advice and persistence are absolutely paramount. I don't personally see the point, for example; in giving up something that has made you feel crap for a month or two to make yourself feel a bit better (losing weight for summer is a good example) to then go and put the weight back on. I personally use exercise and nutrition as my main approach to improving my day to day feeling of mental and physical wellbeing and hopefully to try and correct some of the damage that's been done, I still smoke but have been told not to stop that just yet. After what amounts to just a few weeks I've dropped 13kilos; have a good body and coudn't possibly imagine poisoning it again and undoing all that work.  

Tip...take off all your clothes and stand in front of a mirror and ask yourself if you like what you see?

The whole thing is like tabbing up a mountain, sure you might stand at the bottom and look up and say "F*** me" I'll never get up there, but if you want it bad enough, you"ll do it; you'll need rests, it'll hurt from time to time, you might need someone dragging you along sometimes, but imagine turning around halfway up and quitting and how you'd feel about yourself?

 The world is full of theorists and talkers like the Woolly one, it's the doers who will always prevail...well in my world at least.

 

 

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[quote user="Chris Head"]

 The world is full of theorists and talkers like the Woolly one, it's the doers who will always prevail...well in my world at least.

[/quote]

Whatever works for you is going to be what you see as the best. Well done Chris.

But there is enough space and scope in the world for a diversity of approaches, just like there is a diversity of people. Sometimes doers can talk (like you, Chris), and sometimes  talkers and theorisers can do. It does not have to be a metter of "either" "or". This is not a rugby match where someone has to prevail, everyone can prevail in the right circumstances, surely!

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Thank you Chris. That was a truly valuable post because it identifies some of the real issues to be dealt with. It rang many bells.

That part of your approach I utterly agree with.

And for other commenters, not to say too much, it is not just theoretical in my case either.

But there are horses for courses I guess.

Another question for discussion if you like? How much do you reckon that the heavy drinking culture at UK Uni's contributes to long term drinking problems. I refer perhaps to the situation a few years ago as I havent been near a UK Uni for a few years now. My gut feeling is that it is a big culprit, but would be interested in others' opinions.

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I am finding that this giving up or cutting down the alcohol is a lot more complicated than I thought.  After Chris' original post, I thought I'd have a go at cutting down my consumption, especially as I have a suspicion that I am drinking more since I have been living in France.

Started the day with good intentions.  Came the afternoon and I started to prepare a chicken casserole for dinner.  Damn, can't put in a glass of white wine to enrich the stock as, if I opened a bottle, I am likely to consume the best part of it afterwards.  Chicken casserole tasted bland and uninteresting and only the dog thought it was OK.  So, what would make the food taste better?  Yes, you've guessed, a lovely glass of my favourite malbec from Argentina!  I did stop at just the one glass and then had to spend the rest of the evening drinking apple juice and mugs of tea.

This evening, thought I'd make my favourite pasta dish which I have nicknamed "peasants' spaghetti" because it is a rich, robust dish with lots of garlic, olive oil, sardines, roasted pine nuts and yes, unfortunately, a large measure (about 150 mls) of wine.  Decided against that and thought I'd cook some swordfish instead.  The piece of fish was HUGE and, when I wanted to start cooking, it was still solid from the freezer.  By this time, it was getting late and we were hungry.  Dug in the freezer and found some oven chips left me by my English neighbours after their last visit to their holiday home.  So, it was egg and chips and, well, THAT'S not much of a dinner is it.  So, I cracked open the lightly-oaked chardonnay that I didn't open yesterday and I had one small glass.

After dinner when I was writing a letter to France Telecom (more about this on another thread), I felt unable to tackle this horrible task without refreshing my glass.  I only half-filled it this time but it's still not very good, is it?

You see, trouble is, I don't really have a stressful life and I am certainly not bored or missing Wales or any of those things.  I just LIKE the taste!  I used to drink gin in the summer, whisky in the winter and wine all year round.  But, I have a sneaky feeling that I am enjoying it all too much!

Oh well, back on the wagon tomorrow..............

 

 

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"Sometimes when I reflect back on all the wine I drink
I feel shame. Then I look into the glass and think
about the workers in the vineyards and all of their hopes
and dreams
.
If I didn't drink this wine, they might be out
of work and their dreams would be shattered.
Then I say to myself, "It is better that I drink this wine and let their
dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
~ Jack Handy

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