Muslim woman refused French citizenship

[Clair]

I read about this today on several French news websites and I see it has also made the British press:

Muslim woman refused French citizenship for her 'submissive' views

La nationalité française refusée à une Marocaine pour "pratique radicale de la religion" (translated by google)

La Burqa, symbole (translated by google)

[woolybananasbrother]

Is there a problem?

[trees 2]

More power to the French government.

These people would gladly put women back to the dark ages. How ANY woman can support them is beyond me[:(]

[Richard T]

It's not completely clear to me whether the objection is to a) her state of dress b) her religious views or 3) her victimisation by her husband and male relatives, but it nevertheless provides a good opportunity for bandwagon jumping by anyone looking for an excuse to practise their own brand of xenophobia.

However the thrust of the argument seems to be that she should be excluded from French citizenship primarily because she is a victim of her (French) husband's abusive domination. Surely it is the husband who should have his citizenship revoked.

To me this ruling smacks of those islamic laws which punish female rape victims for allowing themselves to get a position where they may be raped.

Richard T

[Clair]

Her application was refused for "lack of assimilation to French society".

The objection is that her choice of a radical religion is incompatible with the

core values of the French society, specifically  the principle of gender

equality.

During interviews conducted for the purpose of her application with social services and the police, she was covered from head to toe with a black dress, showing only her eyes.

The couple volunteered that they follow a rigid version of Islam based on a strict and literal interpretation of the Koran, that she dressed that way at her husband's request and that she did not contest her submissive status.

There is no mention of "her victimisation by her husband and male relatives".

[Richard T]

[quote user="Clair"]Her application was refused for "lack of assimilation to French society".

The objection is that her choice of a radical religion is incompatible with the

core values of the French society, specifically  the principle of gender

equality.

During interviews conducted for the purpose of her application with social services and the police, she was covered from head to toe with a black dress, showing only her eyes.

The couple volunteered that they follow a rigid version of Islam based on a strict and literal interpretation of the Koran, that she dressed that way at her husband's request and that she did not contest her submissive status.

There is no mention of "her victimisation by her husband and male relatives".[/quote]

Perhaps you don't understand the concept of brainwashing.

Richard T

[woolybananasbrother]

That applies to both the men and the women.

Still, they are right to refuse her application.

[Clair]

[quote user="Richard T"]Perhaps you don't understand the concept of brainwashing.

Richard T[/quote]

I was trying to explain that the refusal was solely related to her acceptance of the practices required by her religion.

What causes her acceptance of such practices did not come into consideration.

What you think I understand is neither here nor there.

[Russethouse]

A ruling like this kind of lets the genie out the bottle - what other beliefs are going to be considered not compatible.

I guess someone like David Icke could be excluded if it was judged his beliefs didn't fit ( I guess every cloud.......[;-)] )

[Clair]

The refusal

of nationality "is not linked to a problem of religion but of conduct

reflecting a lack of assimilation into French society".

[quote]"she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from

French society".

"She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives

in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and

the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind,"[/quote]

Somehow, I don't think David Icke's unusual beliefs provide strong enough ground for "lack of assimilation into society" [Www]

[Russethouse]

Oh, I'm not so sure .......[:)]

The theory remains the same, somehow the goal post has been moved.

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="Clair"]The refusal of nationality "is not linked to a problem of religion but of conduct reflecting a lack of assimilation into French society".

[quote]"she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society". "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind,"[/quote]

Somehow, I don't think David Icke's unusual beliefs provide strong enough ground for "lack of assimilation into society" [Www]
[/quote]

There is a very good analysis of this case in today's edition of Liberation.  My take on it is that without a level of education to show what living in France is really about, the woman is caught between a rock and a hard place tho if she still accepts her role after being exposed to all this publicity and exposure to French Society, she's clearly decided where her allegencies are.  I think that the French government/State's approach to religion is about right and if there are religious fundamentalists in the country, they either accept French values and social mores or forgo their ability (not a right) to become French citizens.

Surely, it's the similar argument as the UK debate about multi-culturalism, when there are effectively ghettos being set up by any number of faiths/fundamental groups who 'decline' to be part of the mainstream British culture.  But surely, it's always been rather like that, Huguenots and Jews pre-date Muslims in East London, the insular Chinese communities etc etc were around for many years, working and living in introverted communities which only changed when second and third generations married out after being exposed to other cultural influences.  And it still happens in the ultra-orthodox London Jewish communities, not just the Muslim areas, where the Jewish communities trade, educate, marry and work within their specific group of families and areas - and interestingly, nobody says a word about them, though of course, they are by and large, all born in the UK .

As for David Icke, my grandson has just filmed an in-depth interview with DI, his first for some years and it's likely to be on the Biography Channel apparently.  Well, perhaps we can stop paying his Uni fees if they pay him for this one!!

[tj]

a step in the right direction, not before time though!!

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

If she hasn't conformed to all citizenship criteria then she shouldn't become a citizen. Simple as.

When I (Richard) went for Australian citizenship 4 years ago, I had to fulfil a hell of a lot of criteria in order to become a citizen. It was ridiculous how much I had to do, but I did it, and so I became a citizen.

[woolybananasbrother]

Isolationism of the kind the French are trying to avoid is called apartheid. (And before anyone says it, apartheid is not just a case of the ruling caste isolating itself). This results is racism then inward looking and subsequently stunted communities controlled by the most extreme elements and is a recipe for misery and conflict. I hope the French are making a stand, but they should spell it out clearly.

[nectarine]

just in support of David Icke, if you read his books from the very start and follow them through in sequence, then a lot of what he is saying makes sense.  If however, you pick up the last one and read it, entirely out of context, then you could easily think that he is bonkers.  I keep an open mind on what he says - he is certainly challenging the power of the European Parliament which he says is trying to strip away individuality and initiative, turning us into 'robots', and believes that the global economy is based on going to war with someone .... is that really so unbelievable?

But back to the original subject, re. the Muslim ruling - I think it is a brave decision but there is bound to be the usual backlash and demonstrations and cries of discrimination.  Will the French give in that easily?

[Clair]

I amin two minds about this ruling.

On one hand, I can easily understand why the decision was made, but on the other, I am uneasy about a secular state discriminating on religious grounds.

Bold move though...

[woolybananasbrother]

There is no discrimination here.

[Chancer]

Agreed no discrimination at all, France welcomes citizens of all colours and religious beliefs but to become a French citizen one must assimilate.

If the recent healthcare debacle had gone the wrong way and lots of UK immigrants (Brits to you Wooly) had decided to apply for citizenship I believe that a large majority would have been refused on the same grounds. The type of people that talk of being "integrated" (notassimilated) but dont speak the language.

[trees 2]

I agree with the above: I've met Brits who've lived entirely abroad for years, by their own admission, yet whose grasp of the language is abysmal. A few mispronounced words at best.

[Russethouse]

But I would suggest that there are relatively few Brits who ever intend applying for French nationality - and probably even less after this!

[5-element]

[quote user="Russethouse"]But I would suggest that there are relatively few Brits who ever intend applying for French nationality - and probably even less after this![/quote]

Sorry, maybe I am being dense, but I can't see why there would be fewer Brits applying for French nationality NOW than before the burqa incident: surely, there cannot be that many Brits living in France whose identity revolves around the wearing of the burqa?

I really must be missing something here. Or maybe you mean, if the attribution of French nationality depends on mastery of the French language?

[Russethouse]

I was referring to

[quote user="J.Rs gone native"]

Agreed no discrimination at all, France welcomes citizens of all colours and religious beliefs but to become a French citizen one must assimilate.

If the recent healthcare debacle had gone the wrong way and lots of UK immigrants (Brits to you Wooly) had decided to apply for citizenship I believe that a large majority would have been refused on the same grounds. The type of people that talk of being "integrated" (notassimilated) but dont speak the language.

[/quote]

and this  from trees 2

: I agree with the above: I've met Brits who've lived entirely abroad for years, by their own admission, yet whose grasp of the language is abysmal. A few mispronounced words at best.

[5-element]

Thank you for dotting the "i"s R.H.

I have yet to be convinced that France refusing citizenship to a UK immigrant on the grounds of their bad (or lack of) French. The burqa question is something quite specific and is a cover up (pardon the pun!) for a whole range of other issues.

Why would a UK citizen want to acquire French nationality? Certainly not for the same reasons as "other" immigrants, the ones who are brown, black, moslem, and who come from less privileged parts of the world. Those UK people who are interested in applying for French citizenship would  have a grasp of the language, as they would have some interest in France, its people, its culture ... or perhaps be married to a French citizen. which would facilitate the acquisition of French citizenship would anyway.

Apart from being able to vote in the presidential and legislative elections, or unless one is looking for a career in the Post Office, what would be the advantages of acquiring French citizenship? Perhaps, to put the final touch to one's integration - which is fair enough.

But I still can't see droves of British people applying for French citizenship. Just like you said, RH. As for "less because of this", I cannot see it.

[tj]

[quote user="5-element"]

But I still can't see droves of British people applying for French citizenship. Just like you said, RH. As for "less because of this", I cannot see it.

[/quote]

For a Brit the change of citizenship/nationality is rather a downgrade, so why would they? for the lady in question its rather the opposite I think!

Would be interesting to hear from anyone who has given up their British passport for French one though.