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[quote user="Quillan"]

I think that most sensible people would agree that those who get good private pensions of say £30k a year or more should not get winter fuel allowance and really I don't see why they should get the state pension either. The money saved can be given to those that are more deserving and much less financially well off.

[/quote]

Well I do.....Because I've paid for it.

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There seems to be a common myth running through this thread that people are entitled to WFA , state pension and other benefits because they have "paid for it" during their working lives.

This a myth - all these benefits are paid from current government expenditure i.e they are paid for by those currently in work paying tax and NI - not from some mythical funds built up through previous contributions.

The same is largely true of police pensions, and I guess, firemen as well.

Taking a broader view one can argue that ALL state benefits,pensions, public service pensions etc are actually paid for by taxing those in the "private sector" . Taking contibutions from public sector workers to then pay them benefits later is simply the treasury recycling the taxes paid by the private sector.

rgds

Hagar

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Hagar"]

There seems to be a common myth running through this thread that people are entitled to WFA , state pension and other benefits because they have "paid for it" during their working lives.

This a myth - all these benefits are paid from current government expenditure i.e they are paid for by those currently in work paying tax and NI - not from some mythical funds built up through previous contributions.

[/quote]

No misunderstanding of this fact on my part.... I've paid for others during my working life and the pact with the state is that the same will be done for me when I no longer work.

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Well put Derek.

The problem is that there are large numbers in my parents' generation (born in the 1920's and who saw and supported the introduction of the welfare state) who feel that "the pact" has long since been broken.

I feel that leaves many of my generation facing very uncertain futures as they reach retirement age  themselves.

rgds

Hagar   

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When people say they have 'paid for it', I suspect they mean that they have paid taxes all of their life, funding the past government expenditure which was used to pay for other people's pensions.  Now that they are entitled to their own pension, it's not unreasonable for them to expect it to be paid out of current government expenditure....

(Edit:  crossed with Derek)

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Just to clarify the point of confusion over the entitlement of the subject of the show mentioned in the OP.  Although he may not be entitled to his OAP for another 3 years (that makes him 62) the WFA is payable from 60 - so this is why he believes he is entitled to it.

Russethouse, you're right in what you say about him saving on a UK TV licence, however, he will be paying for a French one, even if he only watches UK TV, so the saving is not as great as you say.  Where he may be making a huge saving is if he drives a car as he will not be paying any road tax here in France.

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[quote user="Hagar"]

Taking a broader view one can argue that ALL state benefits,pensions, public service pensions etc are actually paid for by taxing those in the "private sector" . Taking contibutions from public sector workers to then pay them benefits later is simply the treasury recycling the taxes paid by the private sector.

rgds

Hagar

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Well  Blow me down

I did not realise that Public sector employees did not pay income tax, National Insurance, VAT or excise duty.

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[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="Hagar"]

Taking a broader view one can argue that ALL state benefits,pensions, public service pensions etc are actually paid for by taxing those in the "private sector" . Taking contibutions from public sector workers to then pay them benefits later is simply the treasury recycling the taxes paid by the private sector.

rgds

Hagar

[/quote]

Well  Blow me down

I did not realise that Public sector employees did not pay income tax, National Insurance, VAT or excise duty.

[/quote]

Well - Now you know

rgds

Hagar

 

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[quote user="Hagar"]There seems to be a common myth running through this thread that people are entitled to WFA , state pension and other benefits because they have "paid for it" during their working lives.

This a myth - all these benefits are paid from current government expenditure i.e they are paid for by those currently in work paying tax and NI - not from some mythical funds built up through previous contributions.[/quote]A myth [:-))]

Whilst both your statements may be basically correct they are unrelated.

Yes of course we have paid for it, how can you say we have not ?

It matters not where that actual money is, or went, or is coming from, having had money compulsorily deducted throughout their working lives why should anybody be disqualified from reaping their due benefits.

Given the past record of governments of all persuasions I'm sure a great many would have welcomed the opportunity to not pay the proportion of their taxes which notionally goes towards the state pension and and other benefits and make their own provision. That would never be allowed to happen of course because the feckless and ner-do-wells would take advantage of it and still end up as penniless burdens.

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[quote user="Keni "]

As a train driver, my OH contributes to his pension fund. The difference was that originally he was part of the government pension fund (BR), upon privatisation, his pension went into the big world to be administered unto by fund accountants.

We calculated that if we retired in the UK, on his pension, paid into for 34 years + top up where possible, we could not afford to stay in the UK - our council tax for a small 2-bed terrace is over 1K, upon reaching 65 Chris's pension will be around 2.5K, because it is designed to decrease, year on year. Because he has paid into the BR fund all these years, he is considered as 'contracted out'. So, no bonuses etc, all he has is what he has paid. So, stock market fall = pension fall. Admitted there is the lump sum, but that will be needed for living on, house repairs etc.

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that when the Government split from BR and privatised the railway, they took a lump sum from the pension fund, leaving a 12mill hole - which the workers have had to plug!

So, we want to move to France to be able to maintain a stable level of income - a smaller home with a smaller council tax, a bit of land to be able to grow our own veg.... Oh yes, we have paid our pension in, so why not be entitled to benefits - as you are within all EU countries?

[/quote]

This post puzzles me.

 I retired from the railway after just 11 years service. Firstly with BR then with a private train operating company and on a lower salary than a train driver.

 My pension is more than £2.5K per annum. Admittedly I always paid in as much as I could to top it up but I am astonished that someone in this position with such long service could end up with so low a pension.

cheminot

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[quote user="ErnieY"]

Yes of course we have paid for it, how can you say we have not ? [/quote]

Actually my post was in response to two earlier posts on the previous page - particularly Bugsy's where he/she talks of " making a greater contribution to the pension fund" - What pension fund ?? It does not exist .

[quote user="ErnieY"]....why should anybody be disqualified from reaping their due benefits. [/quote]

Unlike some others on this thread I have never suggested they should. WFA is designed as a universal benefit i.e like health care in the UK it has no relation to any form of contribution . I think it should remain that way - others may disagree.

[quote user="ErnieY"] ...........  I'm sure a great many would have welcomed the opportunity to not pay the proportion of their taxes which notionally goes towards the state pension ..............[/quote]

I have never met anyone who would withold their taxes on the basis that it funds the state pension. - Unless of course they happen to believe the "myth" that there is some link between the taxes they pay and their own pension benefits.

myth : A popular belief that is false or unsupported by facts.

rgds

Hagar

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[quote user="Hagar"][quote user="ErnieY"]

Yes of course we have paid for it, how can you say we have not ? [/quote]

Actually my post was in response to two earlier posts on the previous page - particularly Bugsy's where he/she talks of " making a greater contribution to the pension fund" - What pension fund ?? It does not exist .

[/quote]

You may, of course, struggle with this Haga, but it was a figurative expression.  I've attached a link here to help you with it.

[:@]

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I've been following this site for sometime as I feel it keeps me up to date with the way the British are thinking, how true or false that is I don't know, but it's the best method I can find at the moment. I'm married to a French woman, my employer moves me regularly around Europe, currently we're in Paris. As a true ex-pat worker my employer has maintained my NI contributions in the UK.

I think maybe I'm 1-2 generations under the median age group of the site membership, so maybe I've got a totally different perspective on this topic. I always understood current NI contributions were used to fund the requirements of the current pensioners, calling it National INSURANCE was a total misnomer, introduced by the post-war Labour Government, of which the majority were ex-pupils of my old school. Who send ex-public school pupils had no social conscience?!. That said, contributions did entitle one to reciprication upon retirement. That contract was irrevocably broken by a previous goverment when the tie to average earnings was broken, I know my contributions are funding current pensioners, yet when I retire my state pension really will be valueless. And I didn't get to vote on this, too young when it was introduced, non-resident now. I know I have to make my own arrangements for my old age, end of story, but Hey-ho at least I'm doing my bit for Society with my current NI contributions.

As regards Winter Fuel Allowance, my parents receive their payment, they don't need it that is for sure, but I would suggest you think long and hard about Means Testing. The amount saved would be completely offset by the administration costs. As an example I would give you the Secu budget in France, administered by an army of (un)civil servants tasked with saving the state money, yet manage to lose EUR 10Billion each year. It must be cheaper to pay to some undeserving people, however much that hurts, than to allow the (un)civil servents to run riot. Apologises to the numerous talented and hard working genuine civil servents, but it's been a day of dealing with your French counterparts.

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Mythbusters...

Some benefits, such as the state pension, are based on your record of having made a certain number of contributions or earned a certain number of credits. You are able to receive these virtually wherever you live. Moreover, the state pension can be supplemented by you having made additional contributions according to your earnings (state second pension, formerly SERPS) but at a considerably reduced rate if you have contracted out through having a personal, or employer's, pension scheme.

Other benefits are granted on the basis of being ordinarily resident in the UK. Once you choose to cease being resident, you lose these benefits. Loss of these benefits - free treatment under the NHS is the best-known of these - should be taken into account before you decide to move to another country. The fact that you may have paid tax and NI over many years, and in some cases continue to pay UK tax, is, unfortunately, irrelevant. By ceasing to be resident, you lose these benefits.

The fuel allowance which is at the heart of these discussions is a bit of a hybrid which just adds to the confusion over benefits, in that, basically, if you were receiving it before ceasing to be resident you can continue to receive it, but if you are not resident when you reach eligibility, you are not entitled.

I did see something on another French-related site that suggested if people became UK resident for one week a year (September 20-26) they could receive the winter fuel allowance. I think there is a bit of muddled thinking there, but I mention it in case anybody who feels they really are hard done by can investigate further.

Edit - the post above this one is pretty much spot on. And it is even more true with French pension contributions for those of us who work, or have worked, in France.

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Well I have just got back from Boules and this is a hot topic amongst the couple of Brits there and the French members. Apparently this two minute slot on the Politics show has been talked about on our regional TV channel. The outcome of it is that the Quillan Boule club are having a whip to buy some wood for the Brits who can't afford to heat their houses. If anyone wants to donate money (I have given 20 Euros) get in contact with me via a PM and I will tell you how to send it and yes I'm serious.
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[quote user="Quillan"]Well I have just got back from Boules and this is a hot topic amongst the couple of Brits there and the French members. Apparently this two minute slot on the Politics show has been talked about on our regional TV channel. The outcome of it is that the Quillan Boule club are having a whip to buy some wood for the Brits who can't afford to heat their houses. If anyone wants to donate money (I have given 20 Euros) get in contact with me via a PM and I will tell you how to send it and yes I'm serious.[/quote]

You are, of course, joking!  What makes the "needy" Brits of Quillan any more important than those in the rest of France?  Charity begins at home.

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Well, I've managed to read through all of the preceding posts and have come to two conclusions.  First, it must be colder in winter in the South of France than anyone around here ever thought.  If not, why is all the fuss coming from there and not from up here in the sunny north?

Second, surely the deal is you get the benefit offered by the country you live in.  France has offered people with oil heating 200 euros if they have a zero income tax bill.  The people on the TV programme live in France.  If they declare their income here as they should, and if it's already been taxed in UK as I understand they claim, then they will have a zero tax bill here.

Sounds to me as if they are already claiming the French benefit and want to get the UK to pay them as well.  Greedy?  Or is it just what we expect from the average British migrant?

Patrick        

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[quote user="oscar"]

[quote user="Quillan"]Well I have just got back from Boules and this is a hot topic amongst the couple of Brits there and the French members. Apparently this two minute slot on the Politics show has been talked about on our regional TV channel. The outcome of it is that the Quillan Boule club are having a whip to buy some wood for the Brits who can't afford to heat their houses. If anyone wants to donate money (I have given 20 Euros) get in contact with me via a PM and I will tell you how to send it and yes I'm serious.[/quote]

You are, of course, joking!  What makes the "needy" Brits of Quillan any more important than those in the rest of France?  Charity begins at home.

[/quote]

I don't know what was actually said on our regional TV news but its the French who were talking about having a whip. Actually the most common question me and my mate got asked (as the token Englishmen you might say) is why don't we claim our allowance in France, see what I mean about being all tared with the same brush, both of us are not even pensioners. Apparently around 75% of Quillanaise do although I can't verify that, its only gossip. They are also wondering why the Brits move to France if they can't afford to heat their houses. At times the French have such a logical response to such things.

Oscar, because they were on telly [;-)]

What I thought was funny is what my mate said, these people have told all their mates back in the UK that they have moved to the warm South of France (didn't the reporter say it was warmer in Manchester or somewhere?) living a life of luxury and things are so cheap and you silly lot have to stay back in the miserable, crime infested UK etc, etc. Now they are on TV begging for money to heat their houses, you have to smile.

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[quote user="woolybanana"]Can I have some wood too please? We bananas freeze in winter and go black all over. A frozen hand of bananas and their babanas is not a nice sight.[/quote]

Bananas are like farmers, I've yet to meet a poor one so NO you can't have any so there.

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Given whats gone on recently, that article is almost funny........................[:@]

My wife said, "Well, give me back a decent pension instead of that married woman robbery that politicians created, and I'll give you back my winter fuel allowance"

[:)]

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Michael Jack, chairman of the Select Committee for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is a Tory MP by the way[:-))], sign of things to come no doubt [Www]

I wonder who "retired plod" of Quillan who is not entitled to claim it anyway is going to cast his vote for now? [6]

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