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Well I've just read through that lot for the first time.........highly entertaining.

I retired a year ago back in the UK, this year I did get the winter fuel payment........I also have a thirty five per cent rise in my fuel bills this year so the net worth is about nill overall.

 

Now I know where the Australians get their famous saying from

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[quote user="tegwini"]

Yes Quillan emgencency services can have messy, grim aspects to their jobs - but not often, thankfully, at Manchester airport.  The only plane crash in his time happened when he was off duty, they do  get lots of leave.  They keep themselves busy on duty watching TV, keeping fit, cooking, cleaning fire engines & the firestation - not bad really.

The problem I have with the system is that it is so easy to retire  early from his fireservice 'on the sick' and many do just that - and at 50, and the pension is good enough to live on even with such an early retirement.  This fireservice did strike, and this closed down the airport - perhaps more than once.

The trouble is the UK cannot afford  so many  people 'on the sick' at present,  goodness know what the future will bring ...

[/quote]

Sorry about going a bit off subject but I just feel I have to correct something.

I can't speak for what has happened at Manchester Airport but I can speak about the London Fire Brigade as I have a family member who worked for them (as I said earlier). Taking early retirement due to medical reasons effects the pension and lump sum payment depending on the level of incapacity. Disability is graded 1 to 5 and only those on 1 get a full pension and lump sum but those poor people who get that have to be extremely disabled along the lines of paraplegic. Its also a very long process taking around 2 years before the thing is settled during which time, if they are allowed to retire, they will be on the lowest payment. In the case of Post Traumatic Stress it can take up to 4 or more years before the level of pension is agreed.

The person you are talking about may have 'swung the lead' I can't say as I don't know, all I can say is that when I asked by Brother in Law he only knows of two. possibly three in 25 years plus service who have 'got away with it'.

Life is certainly different down in London for the brigade, OK they clean their engines, service their kit but they also do charity work at fetes (50% in their own time) fire inspections of hotels and private homes, education talks in schools and quite a few other things. But even if they didn't the three prime services are not like an ordinary job, we pay for them as a form of insurance so that when we need them we know they will arrive and help us. Teachers get a lot of holidays as well (I was going to say MP's but thought better of it [;-)]), we could all say thats pretty good but then if you know people in the profession then you know they actually work a lot longer than the holidays imply usually at home at weekends and in the evenings doing prep work. London Firefighters do shifts of 12 hours, 4 days, 4 nights (thats 92 hours over 8 days which equates to a 57.5hr standard working week) then 4 days off, they don't get public holidays and they don't get Christmas off either but of course they do get between 4 and 5 weeks paid holidays a year depending on length of service.

As for the UK not being able to afford paying for people on long term sick I thought that this was all the fuss was about when the government said they were going to re-interview all such people to see if they can find any form of work for them. What the government can't afford is short term immigration of workers that do pay in to the system but the benefits, like free health, are disproportionate to the money they put in to the system, sort of pay £20 in and get £200 of treatment out, not accurate I know but you get the drift.

 

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[quote user="Quillan"]As for the UK not being able to afford paying for people ... What the government can't afford is short term immigration of workers that do pay in to the system but the benefits, like free health, are disproportionate to the money they put in to the system, sort of pay £20 in and get £200 of treatment out, not accurate I know but you get the drift.

[/quote]

At the risk of upsetting a lot of people, does that not remind you slightly of early-retired British and the French health system?

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Ron I apologise - you were right and I was wrong. Thanks you Clark Kent for explaining. Obviously 'contracted out' doesn't mean what I thought it did and the fact that I was widowed before I was 60 has possibly added to my confusion.

While we're setting things straight, and at risk of going off at another tangent, I would like to say that my pupils were not swine.

Hoddy
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And just another correction. Manchester Airport fire brigade are NOT public servants like the  Fire service. They are employees of Manchester Airport .All airport fire brigades are employees of the owners of the airport, pay scales, terms and conditions of service therefor vary and I bet that a private coy are not going to allow employees to take ill health retirement just on a whim . 
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Exactly but with one difference they wanted to do retrospectively but ended up doing it only for those after a certain date which is the right way to do it in my opinion. I think 5 years is too long (WB's post) but certainly 2 years payment in before you can draw out. I wonder how many take an E106 with them to the UK?
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[quote user="Boiling a frog"]And just another correction. Manchester Airport fire brigade are NOT public servants like the  Fire service. They are employees of Manchester Airport .All airport fire brigades are employees of the owners of the airport, pay scales, terms and conditions of service therefor vary and I bet that a private company are not going to allow employees to take ill health retirement just on a whim . [/quote]

I think actually they are employed by the CAA and come under CAP699 (see the CAA website).

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[quote user="Hoddy"]While we're setting things straight, and at risk of going off at another tangent, I would like to say that my pupils were not swine. Hoddy[/quote]

Not one, not ever, you never wanted to give one a smack ever? Must have been an outstanding school, I mean that really, not lightheartedly which my comment was.

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A close family member worked for the Brigade and went 'out on the sick' at 50 years old due to a bad shoulder since when he's been sailing a 40' boat around the med for the last ten years - so the sea air has done him a lot of good obviously. During his time most of the guys down at the station had two jobs and with many being ex plumbers, chippies, and sparks, they did pretty well.

Sour grapes because he retired 15 year ahead of me? A little, but then he does not get a winter fuel allowance!

 

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[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Hoddy"]While we're setting things straight, and at risk of going off at another tangent, I would like to say that my pupils were not swine. Hoddy[/quote]

Not one, not ever, you never wanted to give one a smack ever? Must have been an outstanding school, I mean that really, not lightheartedly which my comment was.

[/quote]

'Education is casting fake pearls before real swine'

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I think it's the word 'swine' with its connotation of an uncontrolled herd that bothered me Q. We are after all, talking about the majority of our children here. Certain individuals were quite despicable and I'm rather ashamed to admit that I did once take one under the stage and thrash him.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that they are individuals. We lose touch with most of them, of course, but I know that my former pupils include three published authors, two convicted murderers, two murder victims, an executive producer at the BBC, a member of the National Theatre Company and so on. My biggest surprise is the number of them who died before me. All in all they were just a fairly ordinary cross section of society although we did have a higher proportion than the national average of pupils from ethnic minorities.

Hoddy

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[quote user="Bannon"]

A close family member worked for the Brigade and went 'out on the sick' at 50 years old due to a bad shoulder since when he's been sailing a 40' boat around the med for the last ten years - so the sea air has done him a lot of good obviously. During his time most of the guys down at the station had two jobs and with many being ex plumbers, chippies, and sparks, they did pretty well.

Sour grapes because he retired 15 year ahead of me? A little, but then he does not get a winter fuel allowance!

[/quote]

Of the 10 or so fireman that I knew most of them had full time businesses which they did in their off days and after night shifts which were thankfully mostly spent sleeping, nearly all of these retired early on the sick with partial but very generous disability pensions.

At the time one of the guys was building houses and all of the trades on site came either from his station or others, things then started tightening up on second employment or business interests which was when most started leaving,.

My ex-brother in law had so nadgered his knees working on the side as a carpet fitter that he could no longer pass the annual (or perhaps biannual fitness test) where he was expected to be able to carry a prone body down a ladder, his examiner turned a blind eye "just this once" and soon after he was quick to volunteer to carry down the victim during a real fire where by chance he happened to permanently damage his knee, most of the others left in this manner disabled in the course of duty.

That was all in the past and things are now much tougher and the pension scheme is no longer attractive either.

The one fireman that I know that worked until his official retirement age never had a second job, I dont think he ever had a day sick but he also never ever had a "shout" (a fire) in his whole career at Gatwick airport. Mind you he was one of the first soldiers to hit the beach during the Normandy landings so clearly deserved some good fortune.

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I suspect that a shift pattern which included four consecutive days on followed by four consecutive days off may have had something to do with their "secondary" jobs. Were not the strikes of a few years ago linked to opposition to changes in working practices?

My son applied to join the local fire brigade about seven years ago. There were about eight vacancies. Initial screening was carried out one sunday at three fire stations. His application pack number was about 600. He learned that there had been well over 1200 applications. I wonder why?

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Obviously the firemen at Manchester airport are not local gov'ment employees - someone mentioned firemen, BUT their working conditions and pay ARE similar.  My friend's husband spoke with pride how a strike could close down the airport- and he was the no.2 there!    Consequently, their pay and conditions matched other firemen's - including then,  the chance to retire early- including  cheating the system.   And, they do have other jobs too.

Other posters have written about retiring on the sick, and this is not a whim-  I was told about the plan to retire on the sick and  it was planned over months, perhaps years, and many  others did it too!

And, it's true, as someone else posted above, they get lots of applications - hundreds for 1 or 2 vacancies.

Teachers do get above average leave, but often work in the holidays, and 18 hour days during the term time are not unknown. And,  their initial  pay is less than many civil servants : eg the initial pay of prison warders, policemen & etc - none of whom have much, if any, prior training or qualifications. 

 And, teachers do meet criminals.  I have taught 2 murderers, and 1 murder victim, (did my duty and attended her funeral),  and they have to teach these potential criminals in large numbers 30:1 - and no protection, big hats, handcuffs, coshes   ... - if only !!  

  Obviously most kids are not all like this, but it only takes one or two disruptive delinquents to mess up a lesson, and the chances of the others. 

The costs of 'going on the sick' whether from a job or not  costs the UK billions  Quillan - the heating allowance, and I have just received mine (£250),   is a  minimal  cost for ex-pats.   The cost is tiny, almost  nothing compared to the enormous amounts wasted by this  useless government.  

 ALL  OAP ex-pats should get it too.

tegwini 

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Hoddy

you were very brave to thrash one - I started teaching in the days of caneing - and it was a deterrent.  None now, so they can do what they want, and they do know their rights.    Like you - such a variety - Rhodes Scholar, consultant surgeon  etc ...

NormanH

I do like your expression :  " fake pearls... " so very true.

Tegwini

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[quote user="Clarkkent"]

I suspect that a shift pattern which included four consecutive days on followed by four consecutive days off may have had something to do with their "secondary" jobs. Were not the strikes of a few years ago linked to opposition to changes in working practices?

My son applied to join the local fire brigade about seven years ago. There were about eight vacancies. Initial screening was carried out one sunday at three fire stations. His application pack number was about 600. He learned that there had been well over 1200 applications. I wonder why?

[/quote]

Sorry perhaps I didn't explain that bit clear enough, they work 4 days followed by four night then they get 4 full days off so they fork 8 days in every 12.

Well all I can say is if people feel that firemen are over paid, slackers and cheaters who get big pensions for doing nothing then when your house is on fire don't call them just on that principle alone after all if you don't use them then they will have nothing to do and the government can cut them back further saving even more money.

As to all OAP's getting Fuel Allowance absolute tosh, they should be means tested, the amount should be much bigger, up to £1,000 per person based on the 39% rise in fuel costs this year alone and they will be going up even more over the next 10 years to pay for the new energy sources.

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Forgive me. I didn't mean to imply that firefighters were overpaid, slackers and cheats. My own son is a firefighter - but not with a county fire brigade. But I am still puzzled why there should have been nearly 170 applicants for each vacancy one Sunday in 2002.

 

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Quillan

Might as well  means test for the pension too - and while you're at it, how about a graduated fees cost, with a sliding scale based on income  for all hospital treatment.  You could also start to charge people for use of schools too!

Where this would end  -   ???   And £1000  fuel allowance  per person, crumbs !!   That would heat a large house.     And,  Fuel Oil was cheaper here when I bought it a few weeks ago - less than last year. 

But, means testing would require an even larger army of civil servants.  As a UK tax payer I would not like that.  And, few people would accept means testing these days - would you?

A really silly idea!

Tegwini

 

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ClarkKent - My comments weren't aimed at you, sorry. Why are there so many applicants for firefighters, I don't really know to be truthful, it could be a multitude of reasons. What was it for your son? For some I believe its like a family tradition, dad was one so the son(s) become one. I know from my meetings with my brother in laws mates there is a family type feeling not too dissimilar from that encountered in the armed forces which may come from the fact its such a dangerous and potentially life threatening job.

Means testing, simple really, use the same system as other countries, if your registered for tax then its based on the amount of tax you pay. People with private or civil service pensions may pay tax once they draw their OAP (or in some cases before) and depending on the amount you can have a sliding scale. Those that pay nothing can get the maximum (£1000 as I suggested) whilst those ex corporate directors and chairpersons get nothing. Rather than set up a new department you can let the tax office implement it as they have all the data. It is after all only a computer program. Admitedly you may need a few extra low level people to load the cheques in to the printer but in the main it can be done by direct debit in to their bank accounts.

If you want to save money lets get rid of some of the doctors surgery staff. We have 9 doctors in our surgery but only one receptionist/typist. Our hospital has the same for their X Ray department as does the MRI scanner in Carcassonne and in all cases you walk out with a result on the the day you visit and you don't have to wait months either to get an appointment either. I have also seen the 'back offices' in schools, when I installed SIMS which amongst many function's it was suppose to automate many of the procedures that they required staff for. What happened, the back room staff count went up because they needed people to operate SIMS. Perhaps if we got rid of some of these jobsworths and the government let people get on with their real jobs then those that deserve the money like doctors, nurses, teachers, policemen, ambulance drivers and firefighters could get paid a decent wage.

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Quillan

Anything 'extra' the government here does invariably leads to extra people & costs, and loads more 'jobsworth jobs'.   Since Labour has been in power they have added over 1 million people to the state payroll with no noteworthy improvement in anything.

Take the NHS, and yes it is overstaffed in many aspects. Is it still the biggest employer in Europe ?  Billions more spent and no real improvement.  My local hospital - Salisbury District Hospital has lots of admin. people, and you can see  as many as 4 receptionists working, for example in the eye clinic, and a shortage of the specialists that patients do want/need  to see.   And surprisingly they are still using old WW2 prefabicated buildings for some of their departments, with patients even being moved across a road between buildings. We have a new main building, which could have had a centralised reception system, but that wouldn't make sense to them would it ?  My local GP seems to have 2-3 receptionists and certainly much less than 9 doctors, 6 perhaps.  More paperwork with a centralised state system???

I still can't see means testing as an alternative here - it would be so unpopular and no gov'ment here would have the guts to do it.  And, I suspect that it would cost more to implement than it saves.

Tegwini

 

 

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I think we both agree there are 'Jobsworths'  but I don't think the emergency services fall in to that group.

I wonder just what the reaction really would be. I remember when they did away with married mans allowance claiming they would replace it with something different which they did but it never quite matched the married mans allowance amount. They said the same when they effectively did away with mortgage relief but they did. Lets be honest here from what I see these days on the news the Brits just lay down and take it and the government does exactly as it wants but that a different issue

I think that most sensible people would agree that those who get good private pensions of say £30k a year or more should not get winter fuel allowance and really I don't see why they should get the state pension either. The money saved can be given to those that are more deserving and much less financially well off.

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I think that most sensible people would agree that those who get good private pensions of say £30k a year or more should not get winter fuel allowance and really I don't see why they should get the state pension either. The money saved can be given to those that are more deserving and much less financially well off

And how do you propose to weed out the feckless and lazy from those who are genuinely more deserving ?

There are millions of people who worked hard all their lives and by dint of their own labors are finacially comfortable, why should they keep trying to look after themselves if they will be penalized in the end?

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[quote user="Quillan"]

........................ and really I don't see why they should get the state pension either.

[/quote]

Really !........................perhaps because those same people have made a greater contribution to the pension fund in the first place.

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