Politics Show

[Russethouse]

The Politics Show BBC is about to show a feature about Brits living in Southern France wanting the heating allowance

[NormanH]

Will try to catch it later on iPlayer

revise it...

it's available here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/politics_show/7745864.stm

[Gastines]

Just watched it. The main complaint seems to be that if you've paid your dues in the UK surely you should be entitled to the benefits. The labour Government seems to be hell bent on handing out cash to all and sundry who haven't contributed and probably never will.

They also said that the Pound is expected to dip below one euro next year.Happy days.

Regards.

[AnOther]

I agree, if you've paid your dues, and continue to if like me you're still working in UK, then you should get the benefits. Terry Rooney (Labour surprise surprise) displayed both his ignorance and barely concealed contempt for anyone who had the temerity to leave UK.

One thing puzzled me though:  I can understand them both being UK tax payers if on public sector pensions but in the article it says Bob's wife is still paying NI, what's that about I wonder ?

[maconnaisemaconnaise]

I watched it live and again on

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/7745864.stm

I have also emailed the program as I feel strongly about this. I hope others do too. I wonder at the legality of it when both have paid the same contributions.

Why does this ignorant man presume that only rich people emigrate? Or does he presume that they are only people that ran away from a Labour government ie not Labour voters anyway! The politics of ignorant envy?

The thought of the pound worth less than a euro is frightening.

[Mikew]

Only the Rich move to the South of France.........

[Harvey]

 

Yes, I too saw this programme and my jaw dropped when I heard his comment of  'only the rich move to the South of France' Does that mean I will be ok as I live in the North of France [:)] I wonder why he was the spokes person for this question - I missed his introduction. Here is his website and email address, I suggest we all send him an email...... we can't let him get away with comments like that.....can we..... 

http://www.terryrooneymp.co.uk/ 

[email protected]

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Gastines"]

 The Labour Government seems to be hell bent on handing out cash to all and sundry who haven't contributed and probably never will.

Regards.

[/quote]

Yeaah them barsteward socialists how dare they care for those less fortunate than you gastines.

It was in fact a Labour Government that introduced the winter fuel allowance in the first place, you would have frozen to death under Thatcher and hundreds did, but that is fact not mentioned much in the Daily Wail or by it's southern France readership.  So yes gastines they do give away money to those who don't deserve it, the elderly in the UK who cannot afford to pay fuel bills and do not give it to those who chose to leave the UK and by doing so at their age chose to give up certain rights and financial entitlements.

Funny you never hear these whinging barstewards moaning about the regulated electricity prices, cheap diesel and wine in France do you? And how nice to see that cheeky barsteward ex-copper thinks he still has a moral right to vote in a country he willingly chose to leave.[:@] 

[Russethouse]

Can I suggest we debate the argument, not attack the poster ?

Thank you.

[NormanH]

A link to the other thread on the topic

I presume they won't be averse to picking up the €200 euros allowance  from France if they have fuel oil..a point conveniently forgotten in the programme.

[Quillan]

The thing about this group of people one of whom is a friend and the others passing acquaintances is that they have mostly retired early and have worked in government so are drawing civil service or local government pensions. Several have also received lump sums which is how, in conjunction with the proceeds of the sale of their old homes they bought their houses over here. In fact one or two still have their old houses back in the UK. So for them to imply that they have chosen to pay tax in the UK is misleading as they really don't have much choice.

My personal thoughts are that if you effectively emmigrate from your country to another then morally you shouldn't vote in your home country, I am sure I have probably opened a can of worms with that statement but thats how I feel. Different of course if you are on secondment and still resident in the UK. I personally decided not to vote in the UK, I have nothing there and to be honest what happens there has little or no impact on me (unless they vote to leave the EU of course). I do however vote locally in France, something for which I am grateful as local politics effect my day to day life.

Moving to France, or any other country, is a life style decision, nothing to do with jumping from a sinking ship or alike but in making these sort of decisions one should always do ones homework particularly in the field of personal rights and other things that may effect you once you have moved away from the UK. You certainly shouldn't rely on living off the whole of your monthly income with no safety margin.

I actually agree with what Terry Rooney said but not the way he said it, he could have said the same thing but a bit more tactfully. The rules are the rules, they are clear and concise and are on the The Pension Service website. So really I can't see what right they have to complain if they don't meet the criteria.

[Russethouse]

 I think a lot of the complaints are a symptom of the concern some people are feeling about the erosion of their incomes from the UK.

It's not what they thought would happen and  some people are surprised and disappointed to find themselves having to watch the pennies in a country where safety nets are few and far between, especially when they moved for a better quality of life.

[Quillan]

I agree but surely everyone knows that exchange rates never stay the same. Seven years ago(ish) it was 1.60+ then it went to 1.40+ after a few years and now its down to 1.20ish so its not like it has happened overnight. If we had calculated our income from the UK on 1.60 seven years back we would be in serious problems now had we had to rely on a UK income but we didn't although to be fair I wouldn't have thought it would have dropped this low back then.

I believe that people coming over three years ago (the ex policeman for example) should have built in something a bit better than a 15% variant. I mean if, as somebody in the other thread said, the guys pension was £15k that was about 21/22k Euros three years ago. When the question comes up about how much you need to have to live in France most people on the forum say about 20k Euros if you live really frugally. Now £15k gets you about 18k Euros (less transfer fee every month) and another 300 Euros is not going to make much of a difference because they are still under the suggested minimum income to live on. What sort of life is that when all you can do is either walk or ride a bike as anything else is too expensive and you can't afford it, not exactly living the dream.

As somebody said if these people have registered for tax in France and knowing that only Quillan has town gas these people will be on Oil, gas (hardly likely) or wood (most likely as the region has tons of it) then they would be entitled to help from the French government.

[Gastines]

Dear Ron,Having a bad day?As usual you would rather be aggressive than try to understand the logic. For your notebook;policeman's or civil servants;we get by,mostly due to our own hard work. I think you are totally missing the point of my point about the handouts but then again so do many in Government circles.

Regards.

[Will]

Regardless of the apparent inconsistency in deciding who does and who does not get this allowance, which is a subject in itself, I think the point is that in Britain most benefits are given on the basis of residency rather than how much one might have paid into the British system in the past. These are some of the things that have to be weighed up when making the choice about leaving - i.e. that you will no longer be entitled to receive benefits such as the fuel allowance (unless you received it before leaving) and free NHS treatment. And as a non-resident you have little influence in government decisions.

The fact that certain public service pensions remain taxable in UK for non-residents is tied up in the double taxation agreements; maybe it is things like that which you should be seeking to change, as I would agree that this can appear unfair to those in such a position. 

 

[Coppi]

Ron

As a Socialist do you think that anyone who has contributed towards their pension and now find themselves in a situation whereby they can comfortably live on less than their income should not then receive the full benefit of their investment.

There are such people.

Before you aswer do choose your words very carefully.

Less Fortunate / imprudent / fiscally carefull dicuss...................................but not here.

Finally I have a loathing for socialism but thankfully within 18 months we should see an end to it in the UK.

Must go, I have a little boy coming round to go up the chimney to clean it and I really must send someone out to get my "Daily Telegraph"

C

 

[NormanH]

Quillan

"When the question comes up about how much you need to have to live in

France most people on the forum say about 20k Euros if you live really

frugally"

But the Smic and the RMI (soon RSA) are nowhere near this.  Poor families in France have to exist on much less than these people. Of course there is APL, but these British people own their houses so don't need it.

They are comparatively well off.

But ironically because they probably don't pay tax in France (as they pay in the UK)  they would be be entitled to the 'prime à la cuve' intended for low income families (quite reasonably means-tested in France for those who DO pay tax here) ...

[AnOther]

Actually I think UK is (or was until the wheels came off) closer to a Marxist state than a socialist/neo communist one.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx. The phrase summarizes the principles that, under a communist

system, every person should contribute to society to the best of their

ability and consume from society in proportion to their needs,

regardless of how much they have contributed. In the Marxist view, such

an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist society will produce;

the idea is that there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs."

Like a lot of ideas, commendable in theory.........................

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Coppi"]

Ron

As a Socialist do you think that anyone who has contributed towards their pension and now find themselves in a situation whereby they can comfortably live on less than their income should not then receive the full benefit of their investment.[/quote] 

 Can you wrtite that again,  preferably in English this time? 

 Why do think that I'm a socialist?  Just because someone thinks that a particular policy of a government is right that does not make them a follower or card carrying member does it?  Cameron supported the government in the state take over of Northern Rock, is he a socialist as well?

 So C, all the UK ex-civil servants who now live in France contributed to their pensions then?[:-))][:-))]  Really[:-))], there was I thinking the rest of us paid for their pensions.

Anyway, now due to the fall in the value of the £ you think that the poor people (20, 000€ annual pensions) should now be entitled to all the free handouts that are given by the government to those who actually live in the UK and also paid for their far less pensions?   Tell you what,  go to The Telegraph on line and post that and see what your right wing mates in the UK  think about it.  By the way I'm a supporter of the UMP, being that I live in France.[:P]

[Quillan]

With reference to income. Whenever the question is asked on this forum (and another elsewhere) of how much you need to live on in France the general reply is around the 20k Euros per year minimum. Of course if you want to go out a lot, visit restaurants a couple of days a week, tour the countryside, a bit of skiing perhaps then of course its going to cost more. What the French government (like any other government I suspect) believe you need to live on is a different matter.

What I was also trying to get over was the point of why people come to live in France and if you look back through the forum or indeed just ask around the main reason is change of life style.

Our area suffers from high unemployment and there is little in the way of work in general. The French try to dodge the tax man just like anyone else. Many do little bits of work here and there for cash to supplement their low incomes as well as claiming state benefits no doubt.

Some of those Brits shown on the film do a little 'ducking and diving', a bit of painting, general building work for fellow Brits (which to be honest is no better or worse than some of the French) but of course thats all dried up at present. One has to assume they register for French tax and declare any money they earn but sadly I suspect not, one cannot have ones cake and eat it.

[NormanH]

According to this site the average household  income in Quillan is  12 286 euros

Some of these Brits will be in a couple with two pensions, so could easily have double this.

My point is that they are comparatively well-off, that despite this they could qualify for the French allowance for oil heating  if they don't pay tax here...but they are still moaning.

[Sunday Driver]

Like most of these 'Brits having a hard time in France' type of programmes produced for a UK audience, The Politics Show was never going to show the participants in a favourable light.

To the average person, the pensioner's winter fuel allowance conjures up images of old people living on basic state pensions being given some extra cash to keep warm during the winter and no-one would argue with their right to that benefit.  Had the programme centred on an elderly couple wrapped up in old woolies, trying to light a few sticks in their fireplace, then some sympathy might have been generated.  Instead, we were presented with the usual group of well dressed and fit looking middle class expats sitting outside a street cafe sipping their lunchtime beers, worried about the erosion of their chosen lifestyle.

Whilst the response by the government spokesman was a bit tactless in it's delivery, I suspect most UK viewers who are struggling to pay their mortgages would agree with him and ask why they can't just forgo a few meals out with friends to offset their non-entitlement to the benefit. 

Of course, their neighbours on or near the SMIC would have a much harder time of it....

 

 

[AnOther]

Isn't €8000/pa the benchmark in terms of self sufficency for legal residence in France ?

[NormanH]

I suppose it had to happen one day!

I agree with SD![:D]

[andyh4]

[quote user="ErnieY "]
One thing puzzled me though:  I can understand them both being UK tax payers if on public sector pensions but in the article it says Bob's wife is still paying NI, what's that about I wonder ?

[/quote]

 

Could be a number of things Ernie (and may be all of them)

1 paying voluntary contributions will top up her UK state pension.

2 it will also allow her to get a E121 in her own right at 60 - which he may then piggy back onto

3 it entiles her to return to the UK to receive NHS treatment.