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Are there any Jewish people here?


chocccie
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[quote user="WJT"]

I know it is not exactly the same but I would put it in the same category as using the short term for someone from Pakistan simply because it has been used in a very negative way.

[/quote]

So maybe Jew should be removed from the Oxford English dictionary ?, as was the short term for someone from Pakistan.

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Phil and Pat, I did respond earlier to answer why it could have made him feel uncomfortable in her using the term "Jew" in speaking to him and why Jewish was more appropriate not Jew. But perhaps this is not the real question?[8-)]
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Phil & Pat: I use One Look on line dictionary resource. Type in the word, then look for a thesaurus in the list of results. It's not as good as a Roget's but it is a useful site for Oxford & Cambridge dictionaries.

tj: 'Paki,' the offensive term for a Pakistani person, is still in (Oxford and Cambridge) dictionaries, however the definition has been updated. Similarly the entries for Jew and Jewish indicate the offensive uses of these terms, as well as the definitions.

I will be interested to read any responses to OP's original question, asking for the opinions of Jewish people. In the meantime, I'm finding the debate about the evolution of language interesting.

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[quote user="WJT"]

I don't think in this case it is a matter of PC gone too far. The term has and still is used in a very derogative way and at least to my ears the term Jewish has not. I know it is not exactly the same but I would put it in the same category as using the short term for someone from Pakistan simply because it has been used in a very negative way.

I can go on with other races but I think most people here understand what I am trying to say, it does have connotations. I think it is a different matter when someone of that race or religion uses certain terms about themselves.

[/quote]

Surely being 'Jewish' or being a 'Jew' is a matter of religion, culture or ethnicity. Where does race come into this? There is no Jewish race or Pakistani race as there is no Italian race or Indian race.

'Jewish' is an adjective and 'Jew' is a noun. For me neither word has connotations - negative or otherwise.

Choccie, sorry I can't give you an insider's view

Danny

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[quote user="chocccie"][

but the word "Jewish" has also been used in a very derogatory way, so why do you feel uncomfortable using one and not the other?  

 

Though the people I really wanted to hear from were those of the Jewish faith and hear what they think (I doubt they would appreaciate being refered to as "poor things" !)

[/quote]

Chocccie, if you were quoting me when I said "poor things", then you are doing it out of context.  If you read my post carefully, you will realise that I said that in referring (albeit obliquely) to the holocaust.  I certainly would not think of being patronising by saying "poor things" in any other context.

BTW, I would probably say "poor things" when I watch, for example, images of people starving in Darfur.  I don't think it matters whether the people themselves appreciate it or not.  Especially not when I am then moved to make a donation on-line.

Pity should not be confused with being patronising.  Nothing wrong with pity if it then moves you sufficiently to do something about someone else's plight.  Isn't that what the emotion is for?  To inspire, awake consciences, whatever.

You might have a more elegant term than "poor things" but some feelings are so basic and arise so spontaneously that, as far as I'm concerned, what you hear is what you get.

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An alternative is "Hebrews". Many synagogue groups in the UK are called Hebrew Congregations.  Hébreu in french. So Chocccie, you could ask your colleague how he feels about being called a Hébreu.

The word "Jew" derives from Jehudah, one of the 12 tribes, from whom most modern Jews are descended. So Hebrew is more comprehensive. The word hebrew is also the name of the jewish language. It's derived from the hebrew word "ivri" which means one who crossed over ie Abraham, the first Jew.

We are jewish, and don't mind being called Jews, though I know it can be used in a derogatory way. We were walking (in England) with a very sensitive young jewish man and someone shouted out "Jews". He was very upset, though we said to him "but you ARE a jew". It depends how thick your skin is.

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I am married to one, though Di is neither practicing nor perfect. Until now I had never considered there to be much difference between Jew and Jewish - and I am still not convinced. To avoid any unpleasantness in this area in the future perhaps I should attract her attention by calling "Oi, Yid" ?

John

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A lateral slant.

Do you not think that the problem with using the word Jew is the simple fact that it begins with the letter 'J'. It is very difficult to say any word beginning with 'J' without putting an empathis on it.

.John: naughty boy..............[:D][:D]

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I find that the French are very reticent about all this. One of my idols is Mel Brooks, I take John along to see the films and translate the Yiddish.

I was bought up on books of the Holocaust - 'less I and my family forget' BUT always retmind others that more Russians died away from the camps and I feel for them as well as everyone else who lost their lives.

Jesus was born and died a Jew - he was never a Christian. So if you are Catholic, Christian or a subsect you all converted at some time.

I was head of a large project in the UK and my No 2 (who was a genius) called me in public "Oy Tart". At my age I loved it.

The 'Who is a Jew' rule is interesting as we ignore fathers. I am a Jew as I have the marriage certificates going back proving the female line was true.

I am proud of my heritage but not proud enough to go to war over it.

I am a Jew, or a Yid but I don't care kid as Boy, you are a Goy.

If you want a minor war try bigel - NOT bagel - we are not in New York.

Di - and nothing John can say will upset me as he got it all from me [LOL].

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I've always found it an uncomfortable term. I'm never singled out as a Christian and others I know are never singled out as Muslim - so why Jew?

It seems strange to me that many of us are willing to use labels in this way when it comes to the Jewish faith. I and many others I suspect would never say for example 'ah yes, we had a couple of Christians move in next door' . Makes you think, and as for the France, there is in my opinion and in my experience an overt undercurrent of anti semitism.

 

 

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[quote user="Bannon"] I suspect would never say for example 'ah yes, we had a couple of Christians move in next door'.[/quote]

Surely prejudice, and being singled out, is only a matter of whether you are in a minority or in the majority.  Thus, I am unlikely to say that I live next to some French people but they are likely to tell others that they live next to an English couple (when in fact my husband is Welsh....).

 

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[quote user="Bannon"]

I've always found it an uncomfortable term. I'm never singled out as a Christian and others I know are never singled out as Muslim - so why Jew?

It seems strange to me that many of us are willing to use labels in this way when it comes to the Jewish faith. I and many others I suspect would never say for example 'ah yes, we had a couple of Christians move in next door' . Makes you think, and as for the France, there is in my opinion and in my experience an overt undercurrent of anti semitism.

 

 

[/quote]

But, hand on heart, I've heard someone say, "We have a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses moved in next door!"

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There are some references to Christians in French language.

A food item which is very stodgy can be referred to as "un étouffe-chrétien".

Something a bit iffy and suspicious, is "pas catholique".

The subtext to those 2 references is fascinating: it implies that a non-christian would be OK with the stodgy food, but not a christian, who is presumably, more refined and sophisticated and likely to suffocate with that food!   And that anything catholic is to be trusted, whereas non-catholic isn't!

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[quote user="Bannon"]

I've always found it an uncomfortable term. I'm never singled out as a Christian and others I know are never singled out as Muslim - so why Jew?

It seems strange to me that many of us are willing to use labels in this way when it comes to the Jewish faith. I and many others I suspect would never say for example 'ah yes, we had a couple of Christians move in next door' . Makes you think, and as for the France, there is in my opinion and in my experience an overt undercurrent of anti semitism.

 

 

[/quote]

 

But if you were having a general conversation about Christianity, why would it be unusual or unkind to the mention Christian neighbours who moved in next door, and then go on to discuss something which you've learned from them, or something specific to the way their religion guides their lives, as part of a natural conversation.  Providing any conversation is with a generous and open heart which shouldn't they be refered to in that way.  Same as if the same newly arrived Christian neighbours were also bikers and you were in a conversation about biking, it would be perfectly natural to refer to the two bikers who've just moved in.

 


Since my colleague said what he did, I have veered away from using the word "jews" even though I didn't believe that all Jews/Jewish people would find it offensive. For instance, if somebody asked what Kosher was I would have previously used the word Jews in my answer - my use of that world wouldn't have contained one bit of disrespect or malice, yet still I now don't use it.

 

Still, it shows what a worry-free and cosseted life I have (ie, clean water, enough to eat, stress free voting, etc) that I can afford to "worry" about this sort of thing.

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I take your point but to equate one religious beliefs with a hobby? Hmm not sure.

It is unfortunate that the word Jew when mentioned tends to be used in a derogatory way whilst the term Muslim (again for example) seems at the moment at least, derisory. If someone pointed a finger at me and said 'hey, you are a Christian!' I'd be puzzled. Said in the same way to a Jewish person and it becomes....?

As for Jehovah's Witeness's....if they knock at your door ask them to come in and pray with you - and see what happens.

On such a note, one of my favorite quotes comes from Ghandi when he said "I like your Christianity, but not your Christians"

How true. Thank God I'm an atheist! :-)

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[quote user="tj"]So that makes you a Jewish Goy ![/quote]

Nope, sorry, I don't get that.

The really funny thing is that 'they' take all sorts of liberties with things like the Lords Prayer and 23rd Psalm and I am normally the only one who gets upset - I insist on saying them the old way.

My place of worship is either sitting on the stones round a beautiful cross or inside the church if it is empty. If there is a priest he just nods at me as he is usually busy. The house of the Lord is the house of the Lord - whichever one you fancy. I have with me all the time:

God grant me the serenity to acceept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

Whatever God that is written to, I follow him.

Di NOT John

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[quote user="Iceni"]

[quote user="tj"]So that makes you a Jewish Goy ![/quote]

Nope, sorry, I don't get that.

Di NOT John

[/quote]

You obviously know the translation of Goy?, which is rather more offensive to the rest of us, save for most dont know what it means, ( since in the Jewish book Goy refers to all people who are not Jewish or who are not practicing ) than the use of the word Jew.

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[quote user="tj"][quote user="Iceni"]

[quote user="tj"]So that makes you a Jewish Goy ![/quote]

Nope, sorry, I don't get that.

Di NOT John

[/quote]

You obviously know the translation of Goy?, which is rather more offensive to the rest of us, save for most dont know what it means, ( since in the Jewish book Goy refers to all people who are not Jewish or who are not practicing ) than the use of the word Jew.

[/quote]

Goy is male Shiksa is female Yiddish for non Jewish.

Just call me a Jew, Yiddish adds a whole new dimention to Judiaism - not always polite.

As a Jew I can state that a Jewish boy marring a Shiksa makes the Jewish boy dead to his family (and I mean that literally).

Only women count in a Jewish family. Jewish men cannot pass on their religion.

Di - the last in her line :(

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I was born near Glasgow...therefore I am a Scot...or Scottish...I am not, never have been and never will be Scotch.

Regards the earlier comment re Christians all having converted................didn't Jesus pop down to re address the steering group as things weren't going according to celestial mission controls plan?

I haven't met a Jewish person who would take umbrage at being referred to as such if one was discussing matters theological, what I think would get their dander up perhaps is a person feeling the need to refer to them by faith rather than their given name in normal conversation.

So I am am fine with being that Scottish bloke....that Catholic bloke...whole new can of worms. Are we all that different?

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[quote user="Patf"]

We are jewish, and don't mind being called Jews, though I know it can be used in a derogatory way. We were walking (in England) with a very sensitive young jewish man and someone shouted out "Jews". He was very upset, though we said to him "but you ARE a jew". It depends how thick your skin is.

[/quote]

A pair of young Russian refugees ended up in New York about 90 years ago. They had a son and celebrated their religion and tradition by naming him after their religion. When their son eventually died he was celebrated as Lord Menuhin OM KBE, a fine musician and a very fine human being.

Incidentally, Yehudi Menuhin was blond and blue eyed.

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Clarkkent

Yes...................!!!

He was definitely one of the finest human beings ever.  I've had his "Unfinished Journey" (autobiography) for many years but it was one of those books I never got round to reading in a busy work life.  And now I have found it on my bookshelves and I can't begin to describe my admiration for him.

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