A SERIOUS WARNING on WOOD STOVES

[woolybanana]

Well, the ethanol burning type actually. I picked up a radio report by one of the French consumer organizations saying that the new stoves which burn ethanol are dangerous and they want them banned for the following reasons: they burn very, very hot (much hotter than an oven, say) and can damage the fabric of the stove and chimneys besides causing serious burns if touched accidentally, ethanol catches light very easily which makes relighting a stove excessively dangerous, they give off large amounts of carbon dioxide and do not have warning devices built into them, they also give off what I think is a nitrogen based gas which kills, again there is not warning system.

So, if you want a free standing stove, please, please think very carefully before buying one of these monsters.

 

 

 

 

[Cat]

French article published today here

Google English version here 

[woolybanana]

Thanks Cat, I didnt get as far as Nouvel Obs yet, having been on the BEACH for a good chunk of the middle day. Yes, I said BEACH guys.

[cassis]

Gathering driftwood for your non-ethanol stove?

[Anton Redman]

I thought Carbon Monoxide was dangerous/actively poisinous but Carbin Dioxide was UK.

[tj]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]I thought Carbon Monoxide was dangerous/actively poisinous but Carbin Dioxide was UK.[/quote]

The Dangers of Carbon Dioxide

1000ppm 0.1%

Prolonged exposure can affect powers of concentration

5000 ppm 0.5% The normal international Safety Limit (HSE, OSHA)

10,000ppm 1% Your rate of breathing increases very slightly but you probably will not notice it.

15,000ppm 1.5% The normal Short Term Exposure Limit (HSE, OSHA)

20,000ppm 2% You start to breathe at about 50% above your normal rate. If you are exposed to this level over several hours you may feel tired and get a headache.

30,000ppm 3% You will be breathing at twice your normal rate. You may feel a bit dizzy at times, your heart rate and blood pressure increase and headaches are more frequent. Even your hearing can be impaired.

40,000-50,000ppm 4-5% Now the effects of CO2 really start to take over. Breathing is much faster - about four times the normal rate and after only 30 minutes exposure to this level you will show signs of poisoning and feel a choking sensation.

50,000-100,000ppm 5-10% You will start to smell carbon dioxide, a pungent but stimulating smell like fresh, carbonated water. You will become tired quickly with laboured breathing, headaches, tinnitus as well as impaired vision. You are likely to become confused in a few minutes, followed by unconsciousness.

100,000ppm-1,000,000ppm 10-100% Unconsciousness occurs more quickly, the higher the concentration. The longer the exposure and the higher the level of carbon dioxide, the quicker suffocation occurs.

[pachapapa]

CO2 carbon dioxide can actually cause asphyxiation but is not toxic as is CO carbon monoxide.

CO carbon monoxide detectors currently on sale in my local Parthenay Leclerc priced € 20; a very reasonable price as they are more complicated than smoke detectors.

CO2 carbon dioxide detectors are very expensive and require professional installation. They are only required where a sudden accumulation of carbon dioxide may occur. The most likely contact for a normal person would be in the cellar of a public house where carbon dioxide cylinders are used to pressurise the delivery of beer to the bar "pumps". Leakage from such cylinders has been known to incapacitate "cavorting bar-maids".

[jondeau]

I seem to remember a discussion about this very subject in the building section a little while back.......I got the impression some people thought I was nuts when I questioned their safety...

[Cat]

Whatever the dangers of carbon dioxide, the warning issued today is (as stated in the article I linked to earlier, and also on the news tonight) related to carbon monoxide.

"La Commission demande donc que ces appareils soit soumis à "un cadre réglementaire" fixant des normes de sécurité, et "invite les professionnels à procéder au retrait, et si nécessaire au rappel, des foyers dont ils estimeraient qu'ils ne répondent pas à l'obligation générale de sécurité". Elle recommande aux personnes ayant acquis ces appareils "de ne pas les utiliser dès lors qu'ils ne sont pas équipés des dispositifs de sécurité (...) en particulier d'un détecteur de monoxyde de carbone".

[jondeau]

Carbon Monoxide (co) is an odourless, colourless, tasteless gas...........you cannot see smell or taste it. It is a poison that can cause cause death, because it is a poison rather than something that will suffocate, urgent medical treatment is needed for anyone suffering from it, it is not enough to remove them from the cause of the gas to the fresh air.

As to co detectors......research some years ago suggested a percentage of them either did not work or were erratic. I would buy at least two to be on the safe side.

Actually I wouldn't.......I wouldn't fit such an appliance in the first place.......the worrying thing is that some posters on the earlier thread already had.

[Phil & Pat]

Has there been any explanation as to why an ethanol burner should be any more prone to producing carbon monoxide than any other hydrocarbon fuelled device?

Correct me if I am wrong (please) but are the combustion products not water and carbon dioxide, with carbon monoxide only produced when there is insufficient oxygen for complete combustion (or the burner itself is defective)?

Just trying to work out why ethanol fuelled devices should be singled out.

[woolybanana]

No idea, but I would prefer to play it safe until the problems are solved.

[jondeau]

The problem would appear to be that these appliances are burning a neat fuel.......ie, no primary air is being induced into it before combustion. This can result in the incomplete combustion of the fuel and consequently CO will be produced.

I don't think ethanol is being singled out, it is the fact that these appliances have no flue to remove any dangerous products of the combustion process.

[pachapapa]

Assuming the "neat fuel" is 100% ethanol.

The combustion of the fuel will require free access of air to ensure complete combustion.

Consideration of the chemical formula i.e. C2H5OH, there is an enormous deficiency of oxygen, so plenty of oxygen is required to ensure a complete stoichiometric balanced reaction.

Consider:

C2H5OH + 5O2 = 2CO2 + 6H2O

The possibility of CO would not bother me at all, as I would ensure unhindered air flow to the combustion process.

I would however never buy one of these outrageously expensive flavour of the year units due to the combustion creating 75% water which will simply serve to cause a humidity problem.

They are rather pretty and look real cool in certain "relookeed" yuppy wine bars.