Is it just me - or is it getting colder?

[ali-cat]

 

Well worth a read before our illustrious leaders sign away billions more cash we don't have to keep the Maldives above sea level.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/12/understanding_climategates_hid.html

Now I admit I'm in no way capable of understanding all the science - even if all of the information was available and uncontested. But I am old enough to remember the 1970's and being continually told that we were heading for another ice age.  Moreover I'm always suspicious when politicians and the media jump on a bandwagon and apparently stifle any discussion to the contrary.  But the clincher for me is that politicians worlwide are not exactly known for long-term thinking or altrusim.

So whats going on?

Mr Cat

 

 

 

[Hoddy]

I admit that I'm bewildered. I have two real problems with this. The first is that I no longer believe anything that anyone in authority says and secondly, I spend a lot of time reading old documents and frequently come across references to local rivers being frozen over, towns being flooded and crops failing for several successive years.

That said, I do think it would be a good idea to live less wastefully and to eat locally produced food. What I'm not convinced of is the need to pay more taxes which will end up in the pockets of political fat cats.

Hoddy

[Just Chris]

Despite what CRU and the Met Office would have you believe, I can tell you categorically that the planet is NOT warming, it may well be cooling. We have NOT just experienced the hottest ten years on record, sea levels are NOT rising significantly, the ice at the poles is NOT becoming appreciably less - in fact, it is increasing in places. Himalayan glaciers are NOT receding due to climate change, nor is the snowline at Mt. Kilimanjaro for the same reason. There are plenty of polar bears - their numbers are sustained or increasing. CO2 is NOT responsible for increases in temperature, it's the other way around (atmospheric CO2 levels follow temperature) - nor is it poisonous, it's a life-sustaining colourless, odourless gas, and nor is our emission of it of any consequence.

We know the temperature figures were manipulated. We know that CRU and the Met Office organised a deliberate attempt to hide the truth, and fudge and destroy data. These facts are inescapable, however hard these two public-funded institutions may bluster. They have been caught "banged to rights" and they know it - now they are embarking on a damage-limitation exercise. It won't work. The main stream media (who are obviously on-message about man-made climate change) are slowly, but surely buckling under the emerging, and overwhelming evidence that this has all been a monstrous fraud. They are also slowly waking up to public opinion, as they should. If this scam is allowed to continue, it will be to the detriment of all of us.

[buelligan]

Right on Hoddy!  [:D]

Chris and/or Julie;  That all sounds just great!  If it's not too much trouble, perhaps you'd like to share this incontravertable evidence with us (and the rest of the planet).  It would be a great relief to many - and could possibly save a good deal of cash too![:D]

[powerdesal]

Climate change is happening, its what the climate does - constantly, it has been doing so for ever, sometimes slow, sometimes more quickly.

Man made climate change? ........sorry, its buls**t.

The above doesn't of course mean that conservation of energy resources / use is wrong, of course it isn't. Reduction of energy use by more efficient use of such as insulation (the cheapest form of heating you will ever buy), selective use of solar by pre-heating your domestic hot water system to reduce the fuel used to bring it up to final temperature, district heating (where possible) using "waste heat" from thermal power stations, nuclear power stations for base load generation, mini and micro hydro electricity generation locally to reduce grid demand, pumped storage power generation to take the peaks and improve the load factor. All these (and more) make sense but.......not because of MMGW.

Wind power?...........Its a con. unless you are a committed 'greenie' with a humongous battery bank and a dc house, even then the battery bank is hardly ecological.

Wave power....possible, needs investment and a realisation that people take precedence over various esoteric wild life species.

[Just Chris]

buelligan, I suggest you do a little (no, a LOT) of research. Quoting papers and publications and meteorological records would swamp this forum rather quickly. However, a good layman's start would be the links to these sites:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/

http://www.noteviljustwrong.com/home

http://www.climatedepot.com/

http://thechillingeffect.org/

http://climateaudit.org/

But I expect you are already aware of those...

Chris

[chessie]

Its a Con, a Scam - the Great New World Religion.

With the Great High Priest Al Gore (making billions out of Carbon Trading for -----s ake !!!)

Along with B Liar - who now has a new company specially set-up to 'make use' of carbon trading allowances !!!

Plus our Great and Glorious Leader McBroon who - despite the UK being bankrupt - is giving away millions of our money.

But where's the money going ?   President Mugabe was in Copenhagen - you can bet your bottom dollar he's got yet another Swiss bank account set up just so he can keep his Carbon Trading monies separate from the other accounts - filled with hand-outs from the gullible Western 'democracies'..  (And if just seeing Al Gore, BLiar, McBroon and Mugabe in one place at the same time spouting the same nonsense doesn't ring any kind of alarm bells - then one must be stone deaf !!!)

As for trusting any institution, any government, any vested interests - no, never, never, never......they are ALL out for what they can get from the poor little worker ants;  control and tax and tax and control.

The truth is now being told about the statistics; where the temperature gauges are kept - urban heat-sinks;  how some scientific organisations have 'lost' date - LOST data - oh yeah - pull the other leg.

The ordinary Joe Public knows when something is wrong and when we are being lied to - and we can usually work out why.   The truth is now being exposed, layer by layer - and it confirms the total distrust we have in Governments, Scientists, Economists, Bankers - any of them.   But there is nothing we can do - there's been too much brain-washing;  just look at what 'facts' children and young people are now being told.

It'll take 20 or 30 years before it all falls flat on its face; in that time incredible damage will be done to economies that are struggling at the moment.

And just think how foolish all these Cult believers will seem in future years - and how they will be aughed at.   But then future generations will turn and look at us and say 'how could they have been so stupid - and so afraid to take action - and to have let the Cult take over the world like that !!!

Sigh - I think I'll hide my soap-box again for a few weeks  !!!

Chessie

[Frederick]

I wonder why we are never told that the North West passage has been open many times in the past 100 years . It is not navigable in the summer months for regular shipping due to wind blown ice . Some ships have had a go and got through but they take a chance ... they could get trapped. The situation is no different today but the papers like to tell us we will soon be happily sailing through . I dont think so !

[buelligan]

Yep Chris, that sure looks like rock hard, A grade, solid 'kin science to me!  That's the kind of stuff to bet the farm on.  Why don't you hop on a plane up to Denmark and put them all right for us?![:D]

...and Chessie, I'm not going to waste your time or mine by replying, hope you have a peaceful Christmas![:D]

[bixy]

Chris n'Julie - What are you on? Whatever it is I'd like to try some - and drift away into cloud cuckoo land, too.

Patrick

[Just Chris]

That's an easy one, Patrick - common sense born of study and realistic views and values, recognition of a monumental con when I see one and a resistance to greenie brainwashing (and any other brainwashing, for that matter). Works a treat, and I can highly recommend it - try it some time.

Same goes for you, buelligan.

Chris

[Clarkkent]

Yes, Chris

... and the Moon landings didn't happen. It was all a mock-up in a tv studio.

... and the ship that sank wasn't the Titanic. It was a sister ship and they changed the name.

... and the twin towers were blown up by internal controlled explosions. It was a US dirty tricks operation.

... and the world was created on a Sunday evening in October 4004BC and then flooded in 2348BC.

... and MI5 detonated explosions on the London Underground.

We are being lied to.

We must stand up against corrupt governments and their secret agendas.

[:-))]

[buelligan]

Chris wrote [quote]That's an easy one, Patrick - common sense born of study and realistic views and values, recognition of a monumental con when I see one and a resistance to greenie brainwashing (and any other brainwashing, for that matter). Works a treat, and I can highly recommend it - try it some time. Same goes for you, buelligan. Chris[/quote]

...and a Happy Christmas to you too Chris!  [:D]

Tell you what tho', those brave souls working and campaigning tirelessly to save the poor planet from ecologists and to protect its dwindling resources for the exclusive use of "whosoever has the most dosh", must have been over the moon when you rode into town.  Someone with deep intellect, incisive wit and melting charm (and, I suspect, you're pretty darn good-lookin' - don't be shy!), to fight alongside them - they must have seen you as a veritable messiah!  Not only that, but you bring us the joy of laughter at this festive time!  All power to your elbow I say![:D][:D][:D]

 

[Clair]

Buelligan,

Please check your private messages.

Forum moderators.

[ali-cat]

Could Peak Oil be the real reason behind Copenhagen?

From Wiki :

"Optimistic estimations of peak production forecast the global decline will begin by 2020 or later, and assume major investments in alternatives will occur before a crisis, without requiring major changes in the lifestyle of heavily oil-consuming nations. These models show the price of oil at first escalating and then retreating as other types of fuel and energy sources are used.^[4] Pessimistic predictions of future oil production operate on the thesis that either the peak has already occurred,^[5][6][7][8] oil production is on the cusp of the peak, or that it will occur shortly.^[9] As proactive mitigation may no longer be an option, a global depression is predicted, perhaps even initiating a chain reaction of the various feedback mechanisms in the global market which might stimulate a collapse of global industrial civilization, potentially leading to large population declines within a short period. Throughout the first two quarters of 2008, there were signs that a global recession was being made worse by a series of record oil prices"

 

Mr Cat

[Just Chris]

Interesting, and sad isn't it, that those who foolishly support the madness going on in the name of Anthropogenic Global Warming always seem invariably to resort to ad hominem attacks on those who are probably a little wiser. It's the same old story, forget the facts, ignore the science, and insult those who don't necessarily share your views.

It's a shame, really, but it does not serve your "cause" well.

And Clarkkent, sadly you appear to have included yourself in the group mentioned in my post of 11:27 of today.

Chris

[chrisb]

Can Chris'nJulie or one of the others who deny global warming actually present a reasoned argument for their case that the governments of the world (not known for seeing eye to eye) are deliberately making this all up?

And that's not the one about it being an "opportunity to put up taxes". In case you hadn't noticed governments don't need excuses to do that.

Also - can we take it that when the water gets up tp your necks that you will gladly refuse all offers of assistance on the basis that it's just a myth?

[NickP]

[quote user="chrisb"]

Can Chris'nJulie or one of the others who deny global warming actually present a reasoned argument for their case that the governments of the world (not known for seeing eye to eye) are deliberately making this all up?

And that's not the one about it being an "opportunity to put up taxes". In case you hadn't noticed governments don't need excuses to do that.

Also - can we take it that when the water gets up tp your necks that you will gladly refuse all offers of assistance on the basis that it's just a myth?

[/quote]

It's not the water getting up to my neck that worries me, it's the thought of other substance like the proverbial B*** S*** from  the hypocrites like Bono and Sting.

[Just Chris]

I could, without too much difficulty. But this isn't the place, and you wouldn't listen anyway. Besides, so many others could make a better job of it than I, and they regularly and consistently do. I've already given you pointers to some websites which argue the case admirably, with facts and also with sufficient grace to accommodate the views of others.

I suspect, though, that as your minds have already been made up, the established facts and research on these sites wouldn't fit in with your biased point of view, so are therefore irrelevant to you.

You may believe what you wish, and it may take time, but common sense will inevitably prevail.

[chessie]

It's interesting to watch the debate on this Forum....and my - don't people get 'scratchy' with one another !!!

Let's sum it up.

The data is 'dodgy' because it has been 'tweaked', the gauges are in strange places which do not give an accurate long-term record graphs.   There are huge problems with the software being used - it has 'gaps' and odd procedures which computer experts can't explain (basically it's been jigged and re-jigged and altered so many times the foundations and load-bearing walls are at twisted angles).   The records themselves have been used in different ways by different institutions and governments.    The whole thing is a total mess;  and if it weren't so important - for whatever reason - anyone with common-sense would simply say - 'Look, we need to start again;  go through all the records;  re-site the gauges;  get more accurate data...'

The climate may well be changing - but that's what it's done for millions of years.    Maybe the present Ice Age which was forecast in the 1970s and which has now changed into Global Warming - could - just might  - somehow be caused by us - but maybe not.

But there are TWO huge issues not being addressed here.

One - there is OVER POPULATION.   That MUST be addressed;  if we do have 'man made' Global Warming - then there must be steps taken to reduce the world's population growth over the next 20 years.

Two - DEFORESTATION.   The fact that the 'lungs' of the Earth are being destroyed at a terrifying rate is something else that HAS to be addressed very soon.   I was taught (and I don't think the science has changed) that the Amazon Rain Forest - and similar forests - were the system whereby carbon dioxide was taken by the trees/plants and changed and 'breathed out' as oxygen.   If the deforestation was stopped, if more and more trees were planted - then in a space of 10 - 15 years maybe we would see global Warming becoming Global Cooling...!!!!

But anything that involves taxing us, controlling our behaviour, our travel and our freedom - stinks.

Anything that involves these self-important strutting egos - with no understanding of science - who just see 'opportunities' available to make money - stinks.

Anything that involves the billionaire Al Gore (making a fortune from carbon trading (trading in nothing !!) - with Blair in the thick of it, with Mugabe who's got his hands out for the money - stinks, stinks, stinks to high heaven.

While this Cult is allowed to run riot - and the journalists have fogotten their basic training - the the brain-washed masses soak it all up - the whole thing stinks, stinks, stinks.....

And for those of you who refuse to take on board that there are - genuine, well researched, honest scientific studies which do not support the Man-Made Global Warming - I have a challenge for you.

Take a step back - and rethink the whole mess.   Look at who's telling us how to live our lives; look at who/what wants to control our behaviour;  take a look at who is wearing the Emperor's New Clothes.

In other words - be a sceptic - re-read ALL the evidence - not just that which supports your own view.   After all, I'm sure you're all extremeley intelligent; and you haven't been brain-washed - look at it all with a very sceptical eye - and then just stand back and laugh at the self-preening idiots in Copenhagen who have been brain-washed in the name of the Great God Al Gore and his religion of Global Warming.

Wake up for heavens sake - and be far more sceptical.

Oh dear - I promised I wouldn't do this again - I'm sorry - I'm going to hide again !!!

Chessie

[Just Chris]

No, don't hide, Chessie - there's been enough hiding going on already, that's half the problem.

In a nutshell, you summed it up more than adequately. As I said, there are others who could do it better than I. I don't, however, believe you (we) have a cat's chance in hell of changing the mindset of those who stubbornly refuse to take a wider view. But good on you for attempting to precis a huge subject all the same.

Chris

[powerdesal]

[quote user="chrisb"]

Can Chris'nJulie or one of the others who deny global warming actually present a reasoned argument for their case that the governments of the world (not known for seeing eye to eye) are deliberately making this all up?

And that's not the one about it being an "opportunity to put up taxes". In case you hadn't noticed governments don't need excuses to do that.

Also - can we take it that when the water gets up tp your necks that you will gladly refuse all offers of assistance on the basis that it's just a myth?

[/quote]

Chrisb,

As a 'Global warming realist' (denier in your terms), I can certainly accept the fact that the world climate is changing, I would re-iterate my comments of earlier, the climate changes constantly, its a natural, unstoppable and historic fact.

The rate of change of climate change is variable, sometimes faster or slower than other times.

I do not accept that there is sufficient, verified and trustworthy scientific proof that modern society has led to, or accelerated, or even affected that rate of change. Therefore I believe that the current 'man made global climate change' (warming or cooling) hysteria is based on flawed / unreliable/ unproven data.

I am not prepared to spend hours extracting links to the various data and opinions that are freely available on the net, if you wish to you may do so yourself, but......I suggest you approach such data with an open mind, not one with preconceived ideas of the current ''its all mans fault'' syndrome.

Look at ALL the arguments, both for and against the argument, do not be swayed by overblown rhetoric from the likes of Al Gore but study the underlying facts, carefully, rigorously and with a questioning mind.

In my opinion, there are, and have been, a number of scientists, politicians, political wannebees, so-called 'opinion makers' and journalists who have propagated a series of theories for their own ends and these theories have reached ''cult'' stage.

The whole 'Climate change is happening and its the fault of mankind' idea has almost become a religious-type fervour, as such there are a lot of people climbing on that bandwagon for reasons best known to themselves. It may be money, it may be power, it may be (possible) prestige or it may even be total stupidity. Whatever the reason, it does not alter the true scientific results, manipulating results, fudging figures and making wild, implausible claims combined with outright lies does not, and will not alter the real truth.

Yes, climate change is happening. The climate does that, it changes. It may be for the better, it may be for the worse but it will, and is, changing. There is, IMO, nothing we can do about it.

We can (and should) recycle, reuse, reduce our consumption of resources. We should become more efficient in energy use, We should reduce toxic emissions but NOT because we can affect climate change,( WE CAN'T), we should do it to make our World a nicer place to live in.

[Bob T]

Well said Steve. Let us stop polluting to make the world a better place and let the climate go through the normal cycles, like the one 8000 years ago when sea levels rose and made the UK an island.

[Joe]

Talk about cold I have had 20 cm of snow today.Could not go to a party tonight and nearly run out of wine.

[ali-cat]

Dodged the bullet this time but now Gordy's promising to tour the world to drum up a better deal along the lines of the rich countries (including us) needing to fund the developing countries (including China and India) to grow more sustainably.

Now, I believe that the major creditors for the massive public debts run up in the UK etc include China and India.  So Gordy's intending to borrow billions from China and India at extortionate interest rates so that we can then give it back to them to spend on 'green technology'.

Is he 'aving a larf?

Mr Cat