Burqa ban under discussion

[cooperlola]

Swissie, it's one of those subjects that makes my blood boil.  So called broad minded "civilised" (often, but not always as is obvious from this story, men) deciding to stamp their values all over other people and cultures.  It's like the concept of "hate crimes" -another thing that winds me up - surely criminalising people for the way they think is self defeating?  Why must we legistlate against what people feel and against the symbols of their culture?  The only way to change things is to change peoples' minds - not what they look like, how they dress, which language they speak etc.  Reasoned argument is all.  Trampling all over a belief system is just plain daft.  Not to say inflamatory.

[woolybanana]

The burka is not a symbol of orthodox Islam but a political statement, rather like wearing a Nazi iron cross, and should be banned.

[just john]

Quite so Wools, and why does it always seem to be ''converts''[:-))]

[Swissie]

Coops, I've wanted to say that ever since this thread started - and I am very glad you did.

[just john]

So KKK hoodies OK ? the regime in Iran OK? Banning UK nurses wearing crosses OK?

[Swissie]

Ridiculous comparisons rarely help- and as said before, 2 wrongs don't make a right. What would banning the Burka achieve- really? Would it improve the protection of those women who are 'oppressed' (I know many many French women who are 'oppressed' - in many different ways BTW). Quite the opposite- as some will be 'locked in' if they cannot go out without being veiled, and those who choose to wear it (and I know quite a few, having worked in Leicester for a very long time) will become further radicalised.

It would solve absolutely nothing, and make things much worse.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Trampling all over a belief system is just plain daft.  Not to say inflamatory.[/quote]

JE: this has absolutely zip to do with any belief system: and everything to do with perverse patriachal culture and male dominance.

Did you realise, for example, that since in Pakistan it is a cultural tenet to marry off female children to close relatives?

And this causes a well above average incidence of such genetic problems as Downs Syndrome?

The drain on the NHS is significant.

No doubt, many rush to support Pakistani's right to continue with this practice since to argue against it is deemed by the idiot left wing liberal do-gooders as "Racist": so no doubt, the NHS social workers and etc (Who are trying desperately to counter this cultural problem in a civilised nation state and prevent kids being born deformed) are also "Racists".

Give me strength! [:@]

"Trampling all over a belief system" in the case of Islam, would be, for example, banning the freedom to worship in their established manner.

Strange to me how you as a self-confessed aetheist lefty anarchist ([:P][:D], can rush to support any belief system whatsoever.

Unfortunately when one dwells in Rome, then one needs to do as the Romans do.

Western culture is based around unconscious analysis of body language: facial expressions allow humans (And many animals) to adjudge such as deceit, obfuscation, pleasure and the whole gamut of human emotion. It is a core aspect of social intercourse and human behaviouralism.

London's East End now suffers rafts of heavily hooded women driving cars: and to be so insulated from the normal human senses which create and allow spacial awareness, reduced hearing capacity and vision is not only daft, it places other road users and pedestrians in danger.

I shall now retire from this thread before the inevitable assault of the bleeding hearts........................

 

[Swissie]

Gluestick, would banning the burka solve any of the problems you raised or is it likely to make things worse?

[cooperlola]

My point is merely that it is a symbol, not a faith, and that attacking it is self defeating, as Swissie says.  Now, if I thought banning burkas would liberate muslim women from the opression of their husbands then maybe I'd support it.  I'm an atheist but does that mean that I should support a ban on wearing little men hanging on crosses to stop people subscribing to the notion of a mythical god?  Of course not.  I believe religion has a lot to answer for, but telling a minority to stop wearing an item of clothing isn't going to reinforce my argument, it's just going to make a lot of  nutty people even nuttier.

Oh, and by the way, I am neither a liberal nor an anarchist - please stop sticking labels on me and I will continue to try not to label others.  Thanks. Although why when people want to insult you they think that calling you a "do-gooder" is bad, I don't know.  Surely doing good and trying not to cause offence to your fellow man should be seen as a virtue, not a sin.  I believe that's what christians think but of course I'm not one of those so what do I know?

[just john]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Trampling all over a belief system is just plain daft.  Not to say inflamatory.[/quote]

this has absolutely zip to do with any belief system:  "Trampling all over a belief system" in the case of Islam, would be, for example, banning the freedom to worship in their established manner.  

Western culture is based around unconscious analysis of body language: facial expressions allow humans to adjudge human emotion. It is a core aspect of social intercourse and human behaviouralism. [/quote]

Gluey has explained the sentiment behind my disjointed comments rather well but a little explanation from me might not do any harm.

So KKK hoodies OK ? - well no of course not, nor anyone who conceals their identity in a western society, the Burka has already been used in robbery and assisted a terrorist to escape.

the regime in Iran OK? - Western governments don't think so, but not intervening in civil rights in another country is one thing, circumventing extremists views in one's own society is not unreasonable I think.

Banning UK nurses wearing crosses OK? - Well the law Lords upheld this and Christianity didn't collapse, why should reasonable Islam?.

 

[cooperlola]

Of course, I hate the burqa and the oppression of muslim women which it symbolises.  I'm all for the muslim faith growing up and realising that women can contribute more to their society and culture if they are freed from opression.  I assume that's true for most people.  But do laws banning these things really help?  And more importantly, will they free the women concerned or just lead to them not being allowed out in public at all, let alone with their faces covered?  Because I suspect that that is just what will happen to those women who need our support the most.  They will be worse off, not better.  Any belief system that subscribes to the idea that women should not be seen in public won't give a stuff about the law, they'll just trample on the women in their society even more. 

[just john]

Rome wasn't built in a day and a first principle for me is that our society should be free from people who's identity is not visible,
irrespective of religion, race or anything else, (why should people around them feel any unease?)
Just maybe on a positive note some of these women would be allowed/feel comfortable without their face covered in public (the same as everyone else) and for those that aren't, eventually perhaps that door can be opened by whatever other means, all the while the burka remains they certainly won't be allowed on the basis of comments made here.
So lets at least by example here have a visible face, Allah knows the rest of the ensemble is descriptive enough of their allegiance if any were needed. 

[Gluestick]

JE: breaking my stated determination to not return to this thread, I mainly wrote in jest; since you yourself wrote (In an earlier contentious thread on the idiot civil servant making profane suggestions for the Pope's visit) "Speaking as a Lefty Atheist Anarchist........."

Thus my muchly tongue in cheek comment was teasing; pure and simple.

One point: you harp on about "The Muslim Faith": men insisting their women wear any form of head/facial drapery has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam: it is purely cultural and mainly in history returns to Turkish rule over the Middle East and North Africa (The Ottoman Empire) and its grossly OTT Patriachal society, where men commonly, with sufficient wealth, enjoyed their serraglios as much as their multitude of wives.

Unfortunately, owing to the Left and sorry, but the Liberal Bleeding Heart Do Gooder's promotion of PC inanities over common sense and social balance, Muslims in Europe have learned to claim religious persecution when anything they desire, culturally, despite the reality there is no Hadith supporting their desires, is challenged.

Thus Europe, thanks to idiot politicians has made a rod for its own back.

Just yesterday, for example, two Muslim terrorists with established and proven links to Al Qaeda, were allowed to stay in Britain, rather than being expelled, since according to the judge, their Human Rights would have been breached if returned home, as they might face abuse.

So it's perfectly OK to abuse, injure, maim and kill Brits then............. clearly, we don't enjoy the same "Human Rights".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8689439.stm

In similar vein,a magistrate has been demoted and told off for calling two 16 years olds " Absolute Scum": after they desecrated a cathedral and damaged a priceless artifact.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/826615-magistrate-demoted-for-calling-thugs-absolute-scum

 

[Quillan]

I'm sorry but as you know I am far from being a racist but I consider the ban on the Burqa quite justified with regards to security. I also think its a bit sad just picking out France for this when other European countries have also introduced a ban. Only two weeks ago woman in Italy was fined 450 Euros for wearing one so obviously they have a ban, was that spread all over the Daily Mail, I doubt it.. There have been a couple of suicide bombers that have been caught dressed as women wearing Burga's, we don't know how many men have been successful dressing up and blowing them selves up as there is very little left. Other, none Muslim's have also used it as a form of disguise to perpetrate crimes. I'm not going to list the sources as it would fill a page, just Google 'Man wearing Burqa' and see what comes up, ton's of stuff. I therefore think it's justified to ban it on the basis of security and reducing some crime. I know some will shout me down but even I was surprised at whats been going on when I did the above Google search. I'm sorry if it offends people but I value my families life too highly even though I have more chance of winning the lottery than getting blown up by somebody wearing one but I am not going to take the chance and yes if I see somebody wearing one I turn and walk in the opposite direction, nothing to do with being racist etc but just for my own safety. Sad that the world has gone this way really but that's life.

[Frenchie]

I totally agree.

 

[Evianers]

If I had the wherewithal, the time, the opportunity, and let's face it, the temerity to ask, I should very much like to survey and interview Muslim women who wear any form of covered dress whether they would do so voluntarily if their men had very little or nothing to say in how they dress. One wonders at the outcome? Could be anything from 10% to 100%, because it seems doubtful whether fewer than 10% voluntarily cover themselves in an all-over fashion. And yes, was there not a case a few years ago where a man who robbed [and possibly killed] a shop assistant subsequently escaped through Heathrow wearing his sister's burqua, despite being over 1.90m tall?

[Pommier]

I agree with the banning of the burqa, but I was quite shocked that when this subject was raised at the French/English discussion group I attend, everyone (French and English) was just so racist! They all said burqa wearers should be thrown out of France. I tried to counter by asking where they'd be sent if they and their families were French, but I think that got me labelled as a lefty liberal!

[Quillan]

It's the press to blame for this really, making something out of nothing, in the sense they make it racist when its not. Work in any office where things are delivered by motorcycle courier and somewhere you will see a sign that says they must take of their crash helmets before entering, same with banks and definitely anything to do with police or military establishments. If there is no sign then they are told, not asked, to remove it. The reason is obvious, security, they want a picture of everyone that enters and leaves, how can they do this if women or men wear something that hides their face. Outside of these places most countries (I know the UK and France has this) have systems that recognise faces comparing them against photo's of known terrorists and work by using security camera's both in the street and buildings, its part of fighting terrorists. To be honest I think the ban should be extended to 'hoodies' as well.

[Weedon]

I cannot think of many places where I would be comfortable coming face to face with somebody wearing either an SAS style balaclava or a burqa, I reckon both are equally as scary. Somehow though it is thought that nothing untoward is meant by somebody wearing a burqa.

[Dog]

Let them wear burqas. Next time you see someone wearing one go up and introduce yourself they are not going to bite you. If you eat in restaurants they frequent they lift them to eat - so you can get a sneaky preview.

I think banning youths showing acres of underpants and young girls that seem to think that dressing as as a pimps slave is necessary. I would also ban tattooing of children under the age of 25.

I must be getting old - I have lost count of telling young herberts wandering around with their laces trailing that they will come a cropper. They usually just give blanks stares - I am not sure they know what shoe laces are for.

[Jimmy]

[quote user="Braco"]

The freedoms of the masses are built on the rights of the individual.

 

There are a number of things that I also find repulsive, but I do not seek to ban any of them.

 

[/quote]

                                           Ban on England shirts

[Quillan]

[quote user="Jimmy"][quote user="Braco"]

The freedoms of the masses are built on the rights of the individual.

 

There are a number of things that I also find repulsive, but I do not seek to ban any of them.

 

[/quote]

                                           Ban on England shirts

[/quote]

Not to mention the Scots complaining that Mars have changed the wrapper of their Mars Bars for the World Cup, its a white background with a red cross on it, they want it banned (BBC1 News at midday). Bit touchy I thought. [;-)]

[Richard51]

I have recently come back from a period travelling around Turkey staying with local (muslim) families.  Without exception the views we heard were that the burqa had no place in islam.  In the opinion of those we stayed with and talked with, the support for and wearing of the burqa was politically motivated, oppressive and misogynistic and most noticable in the poorer, fringe area of society where the wearer and their family were poorly educated and reliant on the local imam for any sort of education.  An education that was usually manifest as an extreme interpretation of the Qur'an.  All of those that we stayed with were concerned at the spread of fundamental (and in their opinion anti-islamic) teachings and were planning exit routes from Turkey to non islamic countries.  IMO, there is no place for extremism of any shade if we are to live together in a tolerant society. The burqa is a symbol of extremism - like the KKK hoods etc referred to by another poster.

[Etoile]

'Banning drugs gives them a certain cache to some and increases consumption …….. banning the Burka will probably have the same effect.' I cannot believe for a moment that if this repressive garment is banned it will become more popular!

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Etoile"]'Banning drugs gives them a certain cache to some and increases consumption …….. banning the Burka will probably have the same effect.' I cannot believe for a moment that if this repressive garment is banned it will become more popular![/quote]

Of course it will become more popular, Etoile: as radical rabble rousers inflame ill-educated masses to rebel since "Their Rights" are threatened!

The Burqa will thus become a radical political statement and invite civil disobedience in its wearing.

And the fringe self-styled "Fundamentalist" Mullahs and Imams, like Omar Bakra, will find willing converts to their "Cause": which, of course, is the total anihilation of Western "Corrupt" society.

Unfortunately and so sadly, young Muslims trapped in French and British etc sink estates, ill-educated, basically unemployable and left with little hope will flock to his and similar activist's banners.

"Barrabus!" screamed, the brainwashed rabble crowd.....................................

Fantasy?

See here: