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8 murder charges


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I'm sure some of you may have seen this on the French news. The wife has now been formally charged with murder, and husband, with not reporting a crime and concealing the bodies. http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/villers-au-tertre-la-mere-reconnait-avoir-etouffe-8-de-ses-enfants-29-07-2010-1016009.php

I wasn't aware there was a seperate crime of mudering a minor. It begs the question, why differentiate regarding age? Is this saying based on age, one persons life is more, or less, important. And if so, why? Murder is Murder surely. What happened to Egalite?

As to why they did it? Maybe it's the Ch'ti gene.

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For me it's the philosopical point that the Code does differentiate.

The level of culpabilty of the accused in the death of the victim. Fair enough. The status of the victim. Why differentiate?, that implies one life is more important than another.

It was purely an academic philosophical point that grated on me.

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I have a feeling that I heard somewhere that killing of a child under 6 months is infanticide (not murder)

Not sure if that is exclusively the killing of one's own child.

I think the reasoning behind it is that you might not be thinking too clearly so soon after the emotional trauma of giving birth.
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[quote user="bubbles"]I have a feeling that I heard somewhere that killing of a child under 6 months is infanticide (not murder) Not sure if that is exclusively the killing of one's own child. I think the reasoning behind it is that you might not be thinking too clearly so soon after the emotional trauma of giving birth.[/quote]

Infanticide removed from French Code Penal in 1994, introduced into Napoleonic Code in 1810.

 Now a minor under 15 years so mother risks perpetuity.

Edit My Code Penal is the 2008 edition. The applicable Article is Art 221-1-1° on page 302, 1° Sur un mineur de quinze ans. i.e. less than 15 years old.

Le meurtre est puni de la réclusion criminelle à perpétuité.

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The British law used to be based around the child not having a life independant of the mother (still attached and therefore not a seperate being), child destruction and infanticide and the state of the  mind of the mother, I seem to recall it was up to a year after the birth of the child but am now foggy about which offence was which, but definately murder after a year.

This all seems very sad and until there's some sort of report into the parents mental condition, any comment seem rather off.

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Murder attracts different sentences according to the circumstances.

Details in the code penal 

 

[/quote]

I find your post misleading as it implies that there are a multiplicity of sentences in french law for the crime of murder.

The crux of the matter is that the Code Penal prescribes a sentence of reclusion criminelle à perpétuité for ALL cases of murder with only ONE singular exception.

The exception is contained in Art 221-1 which reads; Le fait de donner volontairement la mort à autrui constitue un meurtre. Il est puni de trente ans de réclusion criminelle.

In the context of the current thread Art 221-1 is not pertinent.

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I accept that the level of culpability in a death will lead to a different charge, and potentially a lesser sentence.

Still begs my point as to why there is a seperate murder charge for a minor, which may, or may not, be coincident with the age of sexual consent. If I get bored tonight I'll do some research into France legal philosophy, also I'll have my petite translation device available then.  

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Probably similar to the law, or lack of, on another Ch'ti practice, namely incest, I learnt from this column that it is not illegal unless it involves a minor.

I cant see that ever changing as the local population would dwindle very fast.

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[quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Murder attracts different sentences according to the circumstances.

Details in the code penal 

[/quote]

I find your post misleading as it implies that there are a multiplicity of sentences in french law for the crime of murder.

The crux of the matter is that the Code Penal prescribes a sentence of reclusion criminelle à perpétuité for ALL cases of murder with only ONE singular exception.

The exception is contained in Art 221-1 which reads; Le fait de donner volontairement la mort à autrui constitue un meurtre. Il est puni de trente ans de réclusion criminelle.

In the context of the current thread Art 221-1 is not pertinent.

[/quote]

I stated a simple fact in response to Velcorin's query and provided a link to the current legislation for anyone remotely interested in reading more about it. I'm sorry if you were not able to understand the reason for adding the link.

If you had followed the link, you'd have found that the article dealing with under 15s is actually 221-4 rather than the 221-1-1 you previously quoted from your out of date version of the code.  

Like most ordinary people on here, I don't own a personal copy of the penal code, so whilst telling us it's on page 302, 1° may be impressive, it's also pretty pointless......[8-)]

 

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It would appear that after the dificult birth of her second child the woman could not bring herself to discuss contraception with her doctor . ....Very very sad...and what a terrible outcome ..and  raises the question of  how many are there like her for whom discussing contraception with health care professionals is somthing they feel they cant do?  Perhaps in a small village she felt such a discussion with a local doctor would not be confidential .or perhaps was very religious.  

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The next time Pachapapa decides to try and impress with his knowledge of the law, in the process demonstrating his best A Level GCE in French, perhaps it may be more pertinent to simply post the relative link, in English, or even download the complete Penal Code in English, as this is after all - an English forum.

We can all then like Pachapapa, become instant legal experts.

[url]http://195.83.177.9/code/liste.phtml?lang=uk&c=33&r=3685#art16184[/url]

I rest my case your honour! 

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"][quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Murder attracts different sentences according to the circumstances.

Details in the code penal 

[/quote]

I find your post misleading as it implies that there are a multiplicity of sentences in french law for the crime of murder.

The crux of the matter is that the Code Penal prescribes a sentence of reclusion criminelle à perpétuité for ALL cases of murder with only ONE singular exception.

The exception is contained in Art 221-1 which reads; Le fait de donner volontairement la mort à autrui constitue un meurtre. Il est puni de trente ans de réclusion criminelle.

In the context of the current thread Art 221-1 is not pertinent.

[/quote]

I stated a simple fact in response to Velcorin's query and provided a link to the current legislation for anyone remotely interested in reading more about it. I'm sorry if you were not able to understand the reason for adding the link.

If you had followed the link, you'd have found that the article dealing with under 15s is actually 221-4 rather than the 221-1-1 you previously quoted from your out of date version of the code.  

Like most ordinary people on here, I don't own a personal copy of the penal code, so whilst telling us it's on page 302, 1° may be impressive, it's also pretty pointless......[8-)]

 

[/quote]

The date and year is important due to changes in the law, for example the link which you qouted above will change in October of this year. Another point regarding time is the substantive change in the law in 1994 ( wont bother you with reference to the particular month) which increased substantially the sentence to be applied; the 1994 change in the law changed the lesser crime and sentence which had been the law from 1954. The time is important because the woman may fall under a pre 1994 jurisdiction; already the expression newly born is being bandied around so perhaps the three day rule may apply.

As you seem to have either misunderstood or misconstrued the post I will return to a fuller reply tomorrow whilst not watching TV.

But one thing is certain in respect of  Art 221 of the New Penal Code my copy is not out of date.

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[quote user="Swissie"]Salty Sam - why the very unpleasant and sarcastic comment?  Why not just say 'here is the link in English'? We are talking here about the death of many small babies in terrible circumstances.
[/quote]

I apologise if you found my comments not to your liking.

SD is a respected contributor to this and other forums, and I've never known him to make a contribution unless sure of the facts. The same cannot be said of Pachapapa.

"Why not just say here is the link in English", good point and a question you should ask Pachapapa.

 

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Murder attracts different sentences according to the circumstances.

Details in the code penal 

 

[/quote]

I confirm that your link is to the OFFICIAL FRENCH Version of the Code Penal viz

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do;jsessionid=5001CC96F9151CD8EC7E05DB94F66286.tpdjo08v_3?idSectionTA=LEGISCTA000006165276&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&dateTexte=20100729

May I suggest in future that you post two links the first in french for pachapapa and the second in english for Salty Sam.

May I express my thanks in advance;

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The alleged crime seems to have taken place prior to the abrogation of the Code Penal de 1810 on the 1st march 1994. In particular Arts 300 & 322 of that Code are relevant.

I can find no english or indeed spanish version of the text or the Arts cited but I am sure Salty Sam will offer to assist in the matter.

Thanks in advance.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]
 Chaps, this is getting tiresome.....[:(]
[/quote]

Agreed! The limited number of Codes ( only 10 so far) translated into both english and spanish represent the current legal situation. The offences were allegedly commited prior to the 1st march 1994 when the New Penal Code was introduced. There is no english translation for the earlier Code which in fact was introduced by Napoleon in 1810. There is, of course, a text of the earlier Code available on line in french from which the actus reus and mens rea for infanticide can be ascertained; the jurisprudence is more difficult; but tha avocats in the ongoing case will quickly fill that gap.Certainly cheaper than subscribing to Dalloz à la carte.

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There is no male on this forum entitled to make public comment on this sad case.

There are a lot of decent men on this forum who may have private thoughts/opinions on this case, however , no male has ever been impregnated !

Females on this forum may have thoughts worthy of posting /reading.

It is not just or fair , for men to post comment on this case which , has more to do with excessive pregnancies  than murder.

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Feminist rubbish !!

A "logical" conclusion of Leo's post might be that only those who have committed murder, infanticide, patricide, fratricide or something similar are entitled to post.

The woman is clearly deranged and if locked away with no risk of impregnation is unlikely to kill again. Or would irreversible sterilisation be a quicker, cheaper answer ?

John

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