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Where do you want to be laid to rest?


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Apparently, cremation has been legally permissible in France since 1887 (but allowed by Catholics only since 1963). And also apparently, French laws regarding disposing of the ashes are some of the most liberal in Europe (not permitted in a public place though???)

I found this link informative

http://www.dossierfamilial.com/sante-psycho/vie-quotidienne/cremation-la-marche-a-suivre,1433

but not sure if some rules might have changed since?

 

But it seems that cremation is only permissible if the deceased had expressed his/her wishes to be cremated.

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Details on cremation from the FAQ

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F1582.xhtml (in French), (Google translation HERE)

http://www.afif.asso.fr/english/cremation.htm#disposition
More details on cremation here (translation).

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What about when you come back again in a different life then??

Up to this morning I wanted to come back as a phychologist, on the assumption that nobody can say you are not able to do your job properly and you get loads of wonga whilst listening to some strange stories. If a client fails to respond then it is down to their own inability to come to terms to what is troubling them rather than a lack of skill by the phychologist.

That all changed this morning. I am now coming back as a dentist.

I arrived for my appointment at 11.15. I was shown to the dentists treatment couch at 11.25 by the receptionist and then spent 10 minutes listening to the dentist working on another patient in his other treatment room. He breezes in at 11.35, asks me if I have any problems (whilst checking my teeth) then he starts drilling away at a front tooth because he says it was showing slight damage. I'll say it was slight damage, the only slight thing about it was the time it took, as I was out of there by 11.45. No bib to stop me being hosed down by the water spray, no glasses on me or him, no mask on him but at least he did put on a new pair of gloves. Nothing slight about the bill though and I suppose at 75 euros he can afford to use a new pair of gloves for every patient.

I feel justified in posting that here on the grounds that I just had lay that to rest.

I will save my rant about the dividers on the supermarket check-out conveyors for another day and another thread.[kiss]

Edited:-

Maybe I mean phychotherapist not phychologist, but when I come back I would make sure I knew the difference.

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[quote user="5-element"]

Apparently, cremation has been legally permissible in France since 1887 (but allowed by Catholics only since 1963). And also apparently, French laws regarding disposing of the ashes are some of the most liberal in Europe (not permitted in a public place though???)

I found this link informative

http://www.dossierfamilial.com/sante-psycho/vie-quotidienne/cremation-la-marche-a-suivre,1433

but not sure if some rules might have changed since?

 

But it seems that cremation is only permissible if the deceased had expressed his/her wishes to be cremated.

[/quote]

Yes they have, as I explained above.

http://www.reponseatout.com/funerailles-nouvelles-regles-cremation-a-8928,102.html

Clair's links confirm what I have been saying throughout this thread.

I will now retire to my barrel, beaten by the self confident know-alls who continue to ignore my attempts to be useful.

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Stop feeling sorry for your self yer great prune, take off your loin cloth and go outside. You know it makes the people laugh when you jump up and down and they call you cacahuette. But at least it gets lots more into your begging bowl, thrown there mainly by women who feel sorry for you to be so afflicted and glad that their husbands are better endowed[6]
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[quote user="NormanH"] Yes they have, as I explained above.
http://www.reponseatout.com/funerailles-nouvelles-regles-cremation-a-8928,102.html

Clair's links confirm what I have been saying throughout this thread.
I will now retire to my barrel, beaten by the self confident know-alls who continue to ignore my attempts to be useful.

[/quote]

I hope you are not including me in that category Norman, as I do notice, and usually follow up, ALL your attempts to be useful.

C'mon now, take a deep breath and follow it with a big smile. The sun is shining.[:D]

BTW I do find the new regulations quite disturbing, it seems to me that it is state interference pushed to the extreme! Unless there is a valid reason why ashes cannot be dispersed in a river, from a hill, in one's garden... pollution maybe, as I read somewhere once? (i.e. heavy metal residues etc..?) Do you know, Norman, what are the reasons invoked for these new regulations?

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Good point about the pollution aspect.  Not from the body per se but from additions and prosthetics. Does the mercury in fillings say get released on burning?

I know that you must tell the undertaker if the deceased has a pacemaker as it must be removed before burning due to the radionuclides in the battery. 

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I was very interested to come across this discussion on your Forum as my partner and I are seriously considering setting up a Woodland/Natural Burial service in France. This would be a first as I understand it, hence research of the subject is proving difficult.

I would be very interested to hear your comments (for and against), recommendations for specific professional assistance/advice/ providers of eco-coffins etc. and general advice.

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It seems that the worst pollution is from mercury fillings - but with a well equipped modern crematorium, this should be minimised?

La Baliniere: there is the Natural Death Centre and the handbook in the UK  http://www.naturaldeath.org.uk/ but don't know that there a French equivalent? Anyway, they could be a good starting point?

 

While the FAQ (as re-posted by Clair) is very useful, it does look as if some of the info is now out of date since the new directives re-disposal of ashes.

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Thanks for the prompt response 5-element, but there is plenty of information for a service of this nature (no pun intended) in the UK, but no precedence in France, it would seem.

Any information regarding the legal position, restrictions, local/national/religious considerations etc would be most appreciated.

Merci
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[quote user="La Balinière"]I was very interested to come across this discussion on your Forum as my partner and I are seriously considering setting up a Woodland/Natural Burial service in France. This would be a first as I understand it, hence research of the subject is proving difficult.

I would be very interested to hear your comments (for and against), recommendations for specific professional assistance/advice/ providers of eco-coffins etc. and general advice.[/quote]

You would need to obtain authorisation.

The law is quite clear in this regard:

Article L2223-18-4 

Le fait de créer, de posséder, d'utiliser ou de

gérer, à titre onéreux ou gratuit, tout lieu collectif, en dehors d'un

cimetière public ou d'un lieu de dépôt ou de sépulture autorisé, destiné

au dépôt temporaire ou définitif des urnes ou à la dispersion des

cendres, en violation du présent code est puni d'une amende de 15 000 €

par infraction. Ces dispositions ne sont pas applicables aux sites

cinéraires créés avant le 31 juillet 2005.

Google says:

Article L2223-18-4

Created by ACT No. 2008-1350 of 19 December 2008 - Art. 16

The

fact of creating, possessing, use or managing, with or without payment, any collective

place, outside a public cemetery or

authorized
place of burial deposit for temporary or final storage of urns or the scattering of ashes, is in violation of this code is punishable by a fine of € 15,000 per violation. These provisions do not apply to sites created before cremation July 31, 2005.
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[quote user="idun"]5E I mentioned a living will to my Dr last time I was there and he was horrified, too young he said, ...[/quote]

I think a living will relates to your wish to refuse further medical treatment when you are in a fairly terminal state, Idun, so maybe this was why your dr was surprised.

[quote user="woolybanana"]Very Catho here in the Vendée, so Norman's point may be significant![/quote]

I did have to deal with the death of an elderly Canadian lady in the

Vendee a few years back, and it was no problem to have a cremation for

her.  (Very nice modern place at Olonne-sur-Mer, Wooly!)

The same afternoon the undertaker produced an elegant urn of ashes, 

labelled with an engraved plaque, with three smaller ones for each of

the Canadian offspring to take back to Canada with them.  I think they

had to have a document from the prefecture to state the contents of the

urns, but nobody ever asked to see it.

But this sort of thing has probably been outlawed by the new rules that Norman quotes.

Angela

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Loiseau wrote: But this sort of thing has probably been outlawed by the new rules that Norman quotes.

 

I wouldn't think that "Normans law" applies to individuals, as it only mentions using or managing collective places outside of public cemetery's or authorised grounds, and if you want to scatter your other half's ashes in the garden, who knows? My dear old Mum loved our garden and that's where she finished up after her cremation.

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NickP,

The new law specifies the new legislation regarding the disposal of ashes by individuals (the section I quoted was in reply to La Baliniere).

You cannot scatter your other half's ashes in the garden.

[quote]

La dispersion des cendres dans un jardin privé n'est pas autorisé.  

En effet, le lieu où seront dispersées les cendres sera

un lieu de recueillement pour les proches et doit donc être accessible

pour tous.

Le jardin du défunt n'étant pas un lieu public et peut

donc être cédé, le nouveau propriétaire ne pourra être obligé

d'accueillir les proches souhaitant se recueillir.

(source)[/quote]

[quote]

Destination des cendres

Aussitôt après la crémation, les cendres sont recueillies

dans une urne cinéraire comportant une plaque qui indique l'identité du

défunt et le nom du crematorium.

L'urne est remise à la personne qui a pourvu aux funérailles.

Inhumation de l'urne dans une sépulture

L'urne peut être inhumée dans le caveau avec les cercueil.

Elle peut aussi être scellée sur la sépulture.

Dépôt dans un columbarium

Le columbarium est un monument funéraire qui comporte plusieurs habitacles destinés à recevoir les urnes funéraires.

Certains type de columbariums permettent se sceller une photo sur la case destinée à recueillir l'urne.

Jardin du souvenir

Certains cimetières proposent un espace réservé où les cendres peuvent être dispersées.

Dispersion des cendres en plein nature

Les cendres peuvent également être dispersées en pleine nature, sauf sur les voies publiques.

Dans ce cas, il faudra faire une déclaration à la

mairie du lieu de naissance du défunt, où un registre indique l'identité

du défunt, la date et le lieu de dispersion des cendres.

Pour disperser les cendres en pleine nature, il faut

s'assurer que celles-ci ne se répandront pas, même partiellement, ni sur

la voie publique ni dans un lieu public (stade, square, jardin public,

etc.)

La dispersion des cendres est autorisée dans la mer

et dans les océans mais est interdite dans les cours d'eau, car les

rivières et les fleuves sont considérées comme des voies publiques.

(source)[/quote]

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Blimey, talk about red tape!

My husband's ashes are sprinkled along the lavender walk he planted.  So I shall have to look out for PC Plod (or whatever his equivalent is in France)  to come and haul me in for a night in the cells...   In fact, I think the mayor was among those that came and planted lavender seedlings on top of the ashes.

Angela

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[quote user="5-element"]

[quote user="NormanH"] Yes they have, as I explained above.

http://www.reponseatout.com/funerailles-nouvelles-regles-cremation-a-8928,102.html

Clair's links confirm what I have been saying throughout this thread.

I will now retire to my barrel, beaten by the self confident know-alls who continue to ignore my attempts to be useful.

[/quote]

I hope you are not including me in that category Norman, as I do notice, and usually follow up, ALL your attempts to be useful.

C'mon now, take a deep breath and follow it with a big smile. The sun is shining.[:D]

BTW I do find the new regulations quite disturbing, it seems to me that it is state interference pushed to the extreme! Unless there is a valid reason why ashes cannot be dispersed in a river, from a hill, in one's garden... pollution maybe, as I read somewhere once? (i.e. heavy metal residues etc..?) Do you know, Norman, what are the reasons invoked for these new regulations?

[/quote]

I would never include you in any negative comments I make, as you are one of the few informed and bilingual posters.

I believe these regulations came about as  a reasonable response to a number of incidents where Urns were found abandoned  in derelict houses for example.

People have a tendency to think of ashes in a different way from say a skeleton or a decomposed corpse.

The argument is that these are still human remains, and should be treated with appropriate respect.

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[quote user="Loiseau"]Blimey, talk about red tape!

My husband's ashes are sprinkled along the lavender walk he planted.  So I shall have to look out for PC Plod (or whatever his equivalent is in France)  to come and haul me in for a night in the cells...   In fact, I think the mayor was among those that came and planted lavender seedlings on top of the ashes.

Angela

[/quote]

Yes it is red tape, and it is NEW red tape, possibly since your husband's cremation.

The whole reason for my posts in this thread is to alert people resident in France that these new rules exist.

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Yes, that info is much more recent than either of the two deaths I have been involved with.

Six months in prison for not respecting the wishes expressed in a Will.  Wow!

I shall make sure I don't specify any mode of disposal, and leave the decision to my inheritors.

Angela

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[quote user="La Balinière"]I was very interested to come across this discussion on your Forum as my partner and I are seriously considering setting up a Woodland/Natural Burial service in France. This would be a first as I understand it, hence research of the subject is proving difficult. [/quote]

Do you mean something like this:

http://www.jardinsdememoire.com/

?

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Norman, why should my ashes be treated with "respect" if that's not what I want and why should somebody else define what that respect is?   Once I'm dead, to my mind that's it - I just always thought it would be fun to be dumped in the place where I've always been happiest - at the side of a race track (or preferably on it!)  It does seem a bit nuts to go to the trouble of being reduced to a harmless residue only to discover that we can't dump this anywhere we like. I realise that this is not your view, but a legislative one and you are the messenger - I'm not trying to shoot you, just throwing something into the debate for us all to discuss.  As you so rightly say, best to be in possession of the facts of the legal side of this so you can make a choice, as with so many things.

When my sister died we sprinkled her ashes in the crem' with my father's but perloined a small jar full which we discreetly dumped "elsewhere", contrary to all regulations.  Nobody knows where except me, my mother and one of her friends who helped me get rid of them when nobody was looking.  What was the harm, I wonder?  At least a small part of her ended up where she wanted to be put and, to my mind, nobody else has been harmed by this.

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

Norman, why should my ashes be treated with "respect" if that's not what I want and why should somebody else define what that respect is?   Once I'm dead, to my mind that's it - I just always thought it would be fun to be dumped in the place where I've always been happiest - at the side of a race track (or preferably on it!)  It does seem a bit nuts to go to the trouble of being reduced to a harmless residue only to discover that we can't dump this anywhere we like. I realise that this is not your view, but a legislative one and you are the messenger - I'm not trying to shoot you, just throwing something into the debate for us all to discuss.  As you so rightly say, best to be in possession of the facts of the legal side of this so you can make a choice, as with so many things.

When my sister died we sprinkled her ashes in the crem' with my father's but perloined a small jar full which we discreetly dumped "elsewhere", contrary to all regulations.  Nobody knows where except my mother, myself and one of her friends who helped me get rid of them when nobody was looking.  What was the harm, I wonder?  At least a small part of her ended up where she wanted to be put and, to my mind, nobody else has been harmed by this.

[/quote]

I think that this is a very interesting example of the differences between French mindset,  and an English one: take as another example the Law . France has a  a centralised 'code', whereas English  law evolves from common law and is then adapted by precedents.

That is a gross generalisation which could easily be shot down by the legal experts here, but I do find that French people expect to have things defined and set down in 'texte's , and the debate is about finding the appropriate one, whereas English people are more used to arguing about what seems to be the principle.

In other words In France things are defined for you by a higher authority.

Now to duck....

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Interesting comment Norman, makes a lot of sense to me.

People seem very black and white about the law here, you either abide by it or you are a bad guy/criminal, discussing whether the law is an ass or perhaps should not/does not apply in this particular instance seems to be a totally alien and incomprehensible concept

I find it better to feign ignorance to continue to be accepted as a good guy..

 

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