A book which slams the French education system by a Brit.....

[thepenofmyaunt]

Norm, it was very hard to decipher your replies as you seem to be struggling with the technology somewhat. Must be having to deal with all those yokels. How dreadful that people had regional accents.  You were clearly traumatised by your experience and no doubt scuttled off back to the shires or somewhere the locals were far more civilised and spoke the Queen's English.  I can only apologise for my own level of education but most of it took place in France so I'm clearly at a disadvantage.

I checked out all the Grandes Ecoles on the various lists of top universities, as someone with such an interest in education I'm sure you know the ones I mean, which assess universities on many different criteria including employability of graduates, and found only two GEs listed.Whether this is because the rest are not included or are not good enough, only the people drawing up the league tables know. I'm certainly not party to that information which is why I said SOME and not ALL but a certain assumption could surely be made that if two have been assessed then maybe the others have been too.

The Option International has absolutely nothing to do with the Bac International.It is purely an option where some subjects are taught in English or American English if the option is americain rather than anglais. A friend's daughter is at lycee in Bordeaux doing a Bac S Option International.  It has no additional merit for university entrance in the UK over the French Bac and certainly does not compare to the IB.

My children are lucky enough to go to an excellent local school, designated outstanding by OFSTED, for what that's worth, with a  'Superhead' who is paid more than the PM - and worth every penny of it for her inspired leadership. People send their children there in preference to grammar schools across the border.

To be honest, I can't be bothered to answer your last paragraph which shows a rather shocking lack of knowledge of both the UK and French systems. Do you have children at school in either place?  Fortunately, I've got recent first hand (as a parent as anyone with a modicum of intelligence would have realised) of both systems. Do you?  French children have to know something? Have a word! They have to regurgitate facts and theories with no need at all to understand what it is they are regurgitating. They are not required to think for themselves or demonstrate any sort of understanding of their subject.  Homework is also routinely copied from the internet.  One of the biggest comments made by teachers about my own French-educated children is how limited their general knowledge is compared to their peers.

Make whatever snide remarks you want to about Somerset, both here and on another thread I see, but I KNOW my children are getting a much better education here than in France based on my own experiences, not some vague recollection of years gone by or the garbage that is often spouted on the Franco forums, mostly by people who have no experience at all of the education system except what they heard from the equivalent of  'a man in the pub'.

Did you know that people in Somerset were recently voted the happiest in the UK by an EU survey. Maybe you should come back for a visit.

[thepenofmyaunt]

Clarkkent, a very intelligent and thought provoking post.  I missed the documentary but plan to watch it on catch up.  My childrens' head teacher, who retired at the end of the last school year, turned the school round from a very average one to an outstanding one which is hugely oversubscribed and chosen in preference to grammar schools.  She leads a team of thoroughly committed and motivated teachers who believe in providing the best education for each child according to their ability. Head teachers in France are employed centrally and are nothing more than administrators. They never spend time in the classroom and can only stay in the position for 4 years (in the public system - I can't speak for the private one). Schools in the public system do not appoint teachers, this is again done centrally, so a schools has what they are given rather than being able to develop an 'ethos' or  select the best teachers available.  There is no opportunity for innovation or experimentation, they must simply teach a curriculum that has not changed since the 1950s and which doesn't recognise the different ways in which children learn  There is a huge amount of disquiet among French parents about schooling and in most of the tv and radio interviews with the author of the book, the vast majority agreed with him. Sadly, too few non-French parents have any involvement in their child's education, though to be fair, schools do not often welcome parental involvement, and really have no idea what is going on.

[woolybanana]

So, free schools for France, then?

[idun]

NormanH, I know that there are great engineers, philosophers, artists, scientists, etc who are french and that is the enigma that is France, for I sincerely believe that it is in spite of it all, that 'genius' still shines through.

[NormanH]

[quote user="thepenofmyaunt"]Norm, it was very hard to decipher your replies as you seem to be struggling with the technology somewhat. Must be having to deal with all those yokels. How dreadful that people had regional accents.  You were clearly traumatised by your experience and no doubt scuttled off back to the shires or somewhere the locals were far more civilised and spoke the Queen's English.  I can only apologise for my own level of education but most of it took place in France so I'm clearly at a disadvantage.

I checked out all the Grandes Ecoles on the various lists of top universities, as someone with such an interest in education I'm sure you know the ones I mean, which assess universities on many different criteria including employability of graduates, and found only two GEs listed.Whether this is because the rest are not included or are not good enough, only the people drawing up the league tables know. I'm certainly not party to that information which is why I said SOME and not ALL but a certain assumption could surely be made that if two have been assessed then maybe the others have been too.

The Option International has absolutely nothing to do with the Bac International.It is purely an option where some subjects are taught in English or American English if the option is americain rather than anglais. A friend's daughter is at lycee in Bordeaux doing a Bac S Option International.  It has no additional merit for university entrance in the UK over the French Bac and certainly does not compare to the IB.

My children are lucky enough to go to an excellent local school, designated outstanding by OFSTED, for what that's worth, with a  'Superhead' who is paid more than the PM - and worth every penny of it for her inspired leadership. People send their children there in preference to grammar schools across the border.

To be honest, I can't be bothered to answer your last paragraph which shows a rather shocking lack of knowledge of both the UK and French systems. Do you have children at school in either place?  Fortunately, I've got recent first hand (as a parent as anyone with a modicum of intelligence would have realised) of both systems. Do you?  French children have to know something? Have a word! They have to regurgitate facts and theories with no need at all to understand what it is they are regurgitating. They are not required to think for themselves or demonstrate any sort of understanding of their subject.  Homework is also routinely copied from the internet.  One of the biggest comments made by teachers about my own French-educated children is how limited their general knowledge is compared to their peers.

Make whatever snide remarks you want to about Somerset, both here and on another thread I see, but I KNOW my children are getting a much better education here than in France based on my own experiences, not some vague recollection of years gone by or the garbage that is often spouted on the Franco forums, mostly by people who have no experience at all of the education system except what they heard from the equivalent of  'a man in the pub'.

You sound like one of those dreadful disaffected ex-public servants that used to frequent the local 'Alcoholics Unanimous' down at our village bar or worse still, a certain other franco forum, spitting into their vin rouge about how the motherland has gone to the dogs over their day old copy of the Daily Mail!  Living the dream eh!

Did you know that people in Somerset were recently voted the happiest in the UK by an EU survey. Maybe you should come back for a visit.

[/quote]

What is your commentary on this table of 'Top' business schools from the Financial Times?

http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/european-business-school-rankings

or this

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9c0fbd20-c0a7-11df-94f9-00144feab49a.html

which points out that

" the FT Masters in Management  ranking is dominated by French business schools; 17 of the top 65 masters in management programmes (and five in the top 10) are French.

Looking at the Ofsted report for 'Somerset skills and learning' I read

"Somerset ranks as 110 of the most

deprived authorities in England. Around 68% of its working age population

attain NVQ level 2 and above, which is just above the national rate. The

proportion of Somerset school leavers who achieve five or more GCSEs at

grades A* to C including English and mathematics is 49%, which is comparable

to national figures."

Adequate but hardly the paradise you describe.

But why use evidence or quote sources when you KNOW.

We understand.

Lots of people who haven't made it in France go back and try to assuage  their guilt for messing around with their children's education by attacking the country and system  they have left.

[Richard51]

Unless my counting is wrong, that list has 18 UK establishments (note, not all are universities) in the top 50 compared with France's 13.  Given you have had to resort to a very narrow specialism to try to prove your point Norm (and failed!) - it looks like case closed [;-)]

Mrs R51

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="NormanH"]The Big Lie ( as opposed to Big Society) in British Education comes from imagining that children have to be entertained., and their parents amused.
[/quote]

Well said Norm!

All day long I hear teachers mocking, complaining and belittling children - they of course are absolutely perfect.  They never question their own abilities or training.  Teachers AND parents all over the world could do with a few lessons from the great visionary Maria Montessori.  

Even more so in this day and age.

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="Richard51"]Unless my counting is wrong, that list has 18 UK establishments (note, not all are universities) in the top 50 compared with France's 13.  Given you have had to resort to a very narrow specialism to try to prove your point Norm (and failed!) - it looks like case closed [;-)]

Mrs R51
[/quote]

My auntie's monkey just passed 10 G.C.S.E.'s.  All A passes! [:)]

[NormanH]

[quote user="Richard51"]Unless my counting is wrong, that list has 18 UK establishments (note, not all are universities) in the top 50 compared with France's 13.  Given you have had to resort to a very narrow specialism to try to prove your point Norm (and failed!) - it looks like case closed [;-)]

Mrs R51

[/quote]

Did you read the article I quoted?

17 of the top 65 masters in management programmes (and five in the top 10) are French.

Of the 65 schools ranked, 11 are British, and the UK is second only to France in the number of schools represented.

[Richard51]

I read the league tables you posted...and the figures were as I said.  You have focussed on one very narrow area of education Norman and, even in that, the UK performed better.  From my experience in international business (twenty plus years at senior manager / director level on the international large corporate teams for two of the four biggest accounting firms in the world), the French are consistently notorious not for their business prowess but for:

• ignoring the edicts of the (international) group board of directors,
• not turning up on time for meetings - even when other delegates have flown in from around the globe,
• insisting on having a full two hour lunch (even if it means meetings being cancelled and deals being jeopardised),
• insisting on drafting everything in French rather than English - even when the group executive board have categorically stated that documents, minutes etc are to be written in English (NB English not being the native language of the main group board members.)

If France do have the business theory they are sadly lacking in the practice.

Mrs R51

Twinkle, my pet rat just got his baccalauréat (mention très bien) [;-)]

[Clarkkent]

I think I understand the problem.

Now it is nearly 10 years since I retired from gainful employment in the Business School of a (very) new university and not one found in any of the international indices being mentioned. What puzzles me is NormanH's reference to Business School rankings that do not accord with my knowledge of the sector. Anyway, I have followed his link and followed consequent links and have (I think) identified the source of contention.

Most Business Schools are places where the main qualification is the Master of Business Administration or MBA. This is a post-experience qualification - in other words, it is awarded mainly to people who have working and management experience. It is designed to draw upon the working experience of the student and place this in the context of an academic programme which extends the student's understanding of general management principles and develops new management skills. Essentially, it is an academic preparation for high level management activity.

The index which Norman keeps harping on about is for a Masters in Management programme - a pre-experience qualification, possibly MSc in Management or some such. MiM programmes accept students who have no appropriate working experience and - presumably - are courses which prepare students with qualifications in non-business subjects for careers in commerce and business. Hence they are preparations for work.

The reason for the high proportion of French institutions is that the institutions are Grandes Ecoles. Grandes Ecoles prepare students for specific careers. Some - like ENA and the Ecole Polytechnique - are high status with high prestige, but there are many others which prepare students for mundane occupations. In Agen, for example, there is an institution for training prison officers - ENAP. Presumably, school leavers wanting to become prison governors go there and are enrolled into an appropriate MiM programme, with an MSc as a sort of leaving certificate.

I am not suggesting that an MiM qualification is not valuable - far from it - but it is for people at the start of their careers. MiM rankings are interesting but only a part of the picture. The major involvement for Business Schools is with the MBA programmes and post-graduate research programmes. These are used to provide the major rankings.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Richard51"]I read the league tables you posted...and the figures were as I said.  You have focussed on one very narrow area of education Norman and, even in that, the UK performed better.  From my experience in international business (twenty plus years at senior manager / director level on the international large corporate teams for two of the four biggest accounting firms in the world), the French are consistently notorious not for their business prowess but for:

• ignoring the edicts of the (international) group board of directors,

• not turning up on time for meetings - even when other delegates have flown in from around the globe,

• insisting on having a full two hour lunch (even if it means meetings being cancelled and deals being jeopardised),

• insisting on drafting everything in French rather than English - even when the group executive board have categorically stated that documents, minutes etc are to be written in English (NB English not being the native language of the main group board members.)

If France do have the business theory they are sadly lacking in the practice.

Mrs R51

[/quote]

I think that people in business in the UK should not throw stones as they also live in a greenhouse. Every country operates differently and has it's own idiosyncrasies, I think Italy is possibly the worst. As for the UK I can think of a few.

• Never taking ownership of problems.
• Passing 'the buck' i.e. not my problem it's the other fella.
• Assumption that everyone in the world speaks English.
• Bad communication skills.
• Lack of proceedures.
• Middle and upper management not making decisions or very slow making decisions.
• Bad contract tendering processes and writing.
• Always buying the cheapest and not the best (you get 'brownie points for saving money) which often results bad product delivery.
• Unrealistic delivery times of product.
• Massive overspend on projects (normally because they bought the cheapest and it takes longer and costs more to put it right).

There are a few others to be added but its gong off subject really.

[pachapapa]

Ecoliers, 66% dont like going to school and the very thought gives over a third stomach cramps every morning.

Will the 2010 Baromètre still read fair? or just "ni figue,ni raisin"?

http://www.curiosphere.tv/SITHE/SITHE22676_DYN//pdf/Barometre_Trajectoires_Afev_2009.pdf

What! Nearly 75% and How much.....over 82% for collègiens.[:D]

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/600106/societe-un-tiers-des-enfants-de-quartiers-populaires-a-mal-au-ventre-avant-d-aller-a-l-ecole

[TWINKLE]

A couple of my posts on this thread have kindly been bought to my attention for their content which may cause confusion to some and boredom to others. Thanks you know who [:)]

I agreed with Norm about many British parents expecting their kids to be entertained but when I spoke of teachers bringing down children on a daily basis I was talking about two schools where I work as an auxiliaire de vie scolaire here in France. 

When they get together in that staffroom it can become pretty negative.  It used to shock me - now I just find it depressing. 

[woolybanana]

Well, my younger daughter's experience of the Belgian system is that teachers bring kids down in the classroom too![6]

[Richard51]

Even if the educational standards and teaching methods in French schools aren't enough to concern parents this should worry any parent of an 'immigrant' child.  It seems to confirm the real experiences of parents on this forum whose children have been pushed to the back of the line, insulted or bullied because they aren't French.

Mrs R51

[NormanH]

[:D][quote user="Richard51"]Even if the educational standards and teaching methods in French schools aren't enough to concern parents this should worry any parent of an 'immigrant' child.  It seems to confirm the real experiences of parents on this forum whose children have been pushed to the back of the line, insulted or bullied because they aren't French.

Mrs R51

[/quote]

You think this doesn't happen to Pakistani children in  the UK?

In terms of 'standards'  a French Doctor with a Bac would also know two other languages, Philosophy and History/Geography all studied to 18.

That is why people on this Forum can ask for 'English-speaking' Doctors.

Imagine asking for an Italian-speaking (or any other European language) Doctor i[:D] Bridgwater, or try  to discuss any sort of historical event.

On the other hand in France I recently discussed with a leading Professor of Surgery who had just operated on me for bowel cancer the Booker Prize list.

Try discussing the Prix Goncourt with your GP in the UK

[:D][:D]

[woolybanana]

Norman, did you really discuss modern literature with a surgeon while he had his hand up your ar**. Methinks you have been dreaming in your barrel again, or smoking the magic dog pile!!

And comparing anything with Bridgwater is unfair; it has the lowest IQ in the UK. In fact, more inbreeding than anywere else in Europe. Funny, it produces more teachers, though, than anywhere else![6]

[NormanH]

You have 'drink taken' and not paid attention to my tenses.

I said he HAD  operated.

At the same time we did have  have a jolly jape when I said I found it easier to understand his French than his English, and he said

'Attention je vais te faire une touche rectale...'

As for IQ I think Westonzoyland is even lower.

But both are in Somerset  ..the 'Happy' place.

Where Ignorance is Bliss

[woolybanana]

With a drink I could do but am alas without for another while. 'HAD' has no definition as the concept of finished is undefined and he could have just been finishing up with you face down with the hose pipe still in position....... I guess though he has a severe personality disorder if he is trying to get you to debate from such an unequal standpoint, so to speak.

Actually, the middle of the Somerset Levels is pretty zilch, a bit like the Vendée Marais.

[NormanH]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

With a drink I could do but am alas without for another while. 'HAD' has no definition as the concept of finished is undefined and he could have just been finishing up with you face down with the hose pipe still in position....... I guess though he has a severe personality disorder if he is trying to get you to debate from such an unequal standpoint, so to speak.

Actually, the middle of the Somerset Levels is pretty zilch, a bit like the Vendée Marais.

[/quote]

I agree I lived there for a nightmare winter amid the inbreds.

Please explain this to 'Happy'

thepenofmyaunt .

[NormanH]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8015743/British-Isles-worst-place-to-live-in-Europe.html

[:P]

[woolybanana]

Normie, it is a pity that you are persona non grata in the UK or you could find a nice little cottage in Somerset and live out the rest of your days surrounded by those you love and who love you. Your kids must be so worried about you living in a barrel!

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="Richard51"]Even if the educational standards and teaching methods in French schools aren't enough to concern parents this should worry any parent of an 'immigrant' child.  It seems to confirm the real experiences of parents on this forum whose children have been pushed to the back of the line, insulted or bullied because they aren't French.

Mrs R51
[/quote]

Well I for one don't work in a school where there are any British children present. 

[Chancer]

You two should shack up together, I reckon you would have a high old time, a bit like the odd couple.

Please keep the rectal innuendo going you have me in stitches.

Norman, an Italian doctor would probably think that an innuendo is a suppository [:P]