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Poverty in France


velcorin
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According to them the seuil de pauvreté is €950 per month but its a ridiculous arbitary figure based on 50% of the median income.

Interesting that accoring to them in one year the median income has risen from €1580 to €1900 per month and I thought France was in recession!

I live on less than 50% of the seuil de pauvreté, I get no allocations, degrevements or subsidies yet I can run a car and am in no way poor.

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Median, is the middle income, which is, from a statistically point, not very useful. In effect, you take all the household incomes in France, and pick the one in the middle. For this sort of work, you should use the modal, which is the most common. However considering all the SMICards, that would actually bring the figure down! 50% is a pretty arbitary figure, but it's what INSEE use, I can't really comment further.

Wild guess. The increase is due to working more than 35 hours, and increased reporting due to AE?

The true cost of living in France has been done to death. However, I avoid commenting, because most Brits live in the middle of nowhere, with few facilities provided by their commune, except the basics, what the vast majority pay is not relevant. However, we live in an urban area, our fixed costs, TdH, TF, utilities, are EUR1650 par mois. No mortgage, or rent, standard 2.5 bed flat. Round us, you wouldn't get a barrel for EUR950 par mois, nevermind feed, cloth, school a family of 4. May explain why Secours, CR and Restos are so big?

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[quote user="velcorin"]

Median, is the middle income, which is, from a statistically point, not very useful. In effect, you take all the household incomes in France, and pick the one in the middle. For this sort of work, you should use the modal, which is the most common. However considering all the SMICards, that would actually bring the figure down! 50% is a pretty arbitary figure, but it's what INSEE use, I can't really comment further.

Wild guess. The increase is due to working more than 35 hours, and increased reporting due to AE?

The true cost of living in France has been done to death. However, I avoid commenting, because most Brits live in the middle of nowhere, with few facilities provided by their commune, except the basics, what the vast majority pay is not relevant. However, we live in an urban area, our fixed costs, TdH, TF, utilities, are EUR1650 par mois. No mortgage, or rent, standard 2.5 bed flat. Round us, you wouldn't get a barrel for EUR950 par mois, nevermind feed, cloth, school a family of 4. May explain why Secours, CR and Restos are so big?

[/quote]

This is the big difference.

I live in a hovel, but my fixed charges for one person are over 700 euros a month.

The problem is that the majority of posters here have no idea or interest in the daily reality for the majority of French residents ( who live like us in urban areas) .

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[quote user="NormanH"]
The problem is that the majority of posters here have no idea or interest in the daily reality for the majority of French residents

[/quote]

"Près de 8 millions de Français vivent sous le seuil de pauvreté"

8M out of 60M is a lot and it should not be so in a modern country but it is not a majority ....do your maths Norman .

It could be the same figure in UK ....does any posters know ?

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Norm, you write : "the majority of posters here have no idea or interest in the daily reality for the majority of French residents " 

Wow !

But, Umm, how can I put this …  I mean, like, how do you know ?  Have you polled them ?  Have you a tap on their computers/telephones/bedtime conversations ?  I sincerely hope not.

I could, perhaps, be forgiven for assuming you are taking a fat chance there my man.

Or can you prove your assertion ?

Just checking, nothing personal, but it's best to omit personal prejudices from factual discussions. 

I could be wrong.

Ernie

How to confuse a liberal : quote facts.

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[quote user="NormanH"]

The problem is that the majority of posters here have no idea or interest in the daily reality for the majority of French residents ( who live like us in urban areas) .

[/quote]

And why should it be a problem?

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When NormanH said that about the majority of posters, I have to admit that that is the feeling I still get about this board too, although it is not as pronounced as it used to be.

I have always said that on here there are two France's, 'mine' where France is a country warts and all. And the other one which is fluffy and I do not recognise at all.

I confess that I make sweeping mental judgements about people from the way they describe France/the French, especially if it is at odds with my experience of France. Daresay they do the same with me!
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There are two different groups of English people that have houses in France, those that have holiday homes and those that live here. This is obvious to many I know but it does in some ways define the way you view France.

Those with a holiday home tend to come to escape from work etc and are here on a break. Most are too busy relaxing and enjoying themselves to look deeply in to whats going on around them and in many ways why should they, they don't live here, they are here for a holiday.

Others, like me, live here full time. For the first couple of years we may be too busy setting ourselves and our business's up to look at whats going on around us. Some become engrossed in renovating their property. After a few years and we have settled in we start to see more of whats going on around us. Where we live we have had two major manufactures close their factories making thousands unemployed which has had major effect on the area. One example of the lack of money round here, because some of my guests make the same comment, is that I thought that the French were keen gardeners. We have loads of 'allotments' round here growing all sorts of vegetables. I mentioned this to some new French friends when we first came here and they told me that its not a hobby, they have to grow veg else they would have nothing to eat. One chap grew some strange root vegetable in great numbers and I asked him what they were and how you cooked them. He told me they were for his rabbits and I stupidly thought pet rabbits but he breeds them for food for his family, no rabbits, no meat.

Another thing I have noticed over the years is that our village just like others is dieing. There are very few young people here now, those that are here are at school. Once they have finished school they leave the area going to Toulouse and other big cities, some even go to the UK, the reason is work.

Mrs 'Q' has always commented that if France is the home of fashion then its not come down here. People in general look dowdy and wear cheap cloths (often the same ones for weeks if not months on end), the only time you see 'Haute Couture' (or whatever you call it) round here is when the tourists come in the summer. That also incudes the English tourists and they don't know the difference between local French and those on holiday here.

Another thing I notice more is the amount of people taking stuff out of their bag at the supermarket because they can't afford it. The prices in supermarkets has steadily risen over the years and I don't care what anyone says living in France is expensive. Like the French we hunt out the bargains and buy in bulk then freeze if its food. Beef for stews we buy by the kilo during the summer and freeze because its so cheap (it's out of season). Last week we had 'petrol' at 14.50 Euros a container, I bought 8 containers for the winter, a week latter they had them for 19.50. When they were cheap they went in hours. We have 'porc festivals' where pork is dirt cheap, again we buy in bulk and freeze because we copy the French. You notice with the chickens for sale, the cheap, battery, chickens always go first. The 'healthy' expensive free range stuff hardly sells except in the summer when the holiday people are around. These are all the little things you notice that shows people here are very poor.

Some houses of French friends I have visited are pretty basic and a mess inside. First time I visited such a house I wondered how anyone can possibly live like that, they were basically dumps. Now I know its because they are poor and can't afford to do anything. Some of these houses have a downstairs bedroom often near the kitchen. The reason for this is because they close off most of the house in winter and basically live in two or three very small rooms because they can't afford to heat the rest of the house. Even today having been her 10 years I still see signs of poverty that take my breath away.

My point is that this is how the divide of what you see about France happens. People with a holiday home don't see or notice whats going on around them them but I don't think they should be penalised for this or thought the less of. This is why it comes as not surprise to me that there are many poor French living on a very low income.

 

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A sensible debate about poverty can only be had after agreeing what constitutes poverty.

 

Using 60% or 50% of median income is as silly as comparing Warren Buffet to Bill Gates and classifying one of them as poor.

 

My definition of poverty is one who regularly goes hungry.

 

The relative wealth between groups within the UK/France are broadly the same. People that know how to budget do well those who don’t struggle.

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I didn't know I was poor until I went to college at 16 in the mid seventies and met people from different walks of life who were happy to point out how poor I was.I had always been kept warm and had enough to eat and was happy .I'll always remember that first time , I told someone where I lived " how awful for you!" they replied.

In this region the elderly population generally live in one room, the bed in one corner ,the kitchen in another, the wood fueled cuisiniere on the go ,even in summer. No bathroom, no fosse. The potager ,the rabbits, the chickens.......That'll be me in a few years,but maybe with the exception of a working bathroom! I don't see any of this as being poor.It's just folks who are not interested in the accumulation of "stuff" of which there is a mighty amount of these days.You're dead right ,Braco
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There is a huge difference between "voluntary simplicity", deliberately downsizing, and actual poverty. I doubt very much that there are any really poor people reading this forum, but there are those who have chosen to tread lightly - which of course, so much more possible to do  somewhere rural than if you live in a tower block in a banlieue....where the option of chickens and rabbits and vegetable patch is curiously absent...and this is the majority of "poor people" in France.

In other words, "chosen poverty", rather than "suffered poverty" ("pauvreté choisie" vs. "pauvreté subie")

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[quote user="5-element"]

There is a huge difference between "voluntary simplicity", deliberately downsizing, and actual poverty. I doubt very much that there are any really poor people reading this forum, but there are those who have chosen to tread lightly - which of course, so much more possible to do  somewhere rural than if you live in a tower block in a banlieue....where the option of chickens and rabbits and vegetable patch is curiously absent...and this is the majority of "poor people" in France.

In other words, "chosen poverty", rather than "suffered poverty" ("pauvreté choisie" vs. "pauvreté subie")

[/quote]

And it helps, a tweent-weeny bit, if you've already got all the "stuff". Fridge, freezer, dishwasher, TV, PC, hi-fi, cars, clothes, shoes, beds, furniture, phones, cooker,............

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[quote user="5-element"]

In other words, "chosen poverty", rather than "suffered poverty" ("pauvreté choisie" vs. "pauvreté subie")

[/quote]

Could you also use the saying I have heard many times before that some people use to differentiate between English and French "The English live to work and the French work to live"? I have always understood this to mean that whilst the English will work and work till they almost drop to get as much money as possible the French work until they have enough to live and then live i.e. just enough to pay the bills and put food on the table then enjoy life.

People come to France from the UK for many reasons. One reason is that in the past you could buy a half decent house in France a lot less than you could in the UK.

It may be that people here are relatively poor to what they had before. It might be that materialistically some are poor but enjoy a better life in France. It may be that people have come from poor backgrounds, worked hard and have gotten themselves in to a position where they can now live whatever life they wish. It does not mean that they may never have experienced poverty or been poor in the past. Like many of us here I can only read what they type, I don't know them nor their background so I couldn't possibly say what experiences they have had in the past so they may be quite qualified to make comments about being poor and living in poverty.

Likewise there are those that are happy with their 'lot' living a day to day existence but there may also be some that have 'done' being poor and have bettered themselves. In my own personal case we were poor when I was a child, I remember local kids having things that I didn't but overall I feel I had a happy childhood and didn't realise how poor my parents were. It was only in my mid 20's that in conversation my mother told me how after paying bills etc that by the end of the week we would often not have any food in the house and she would wait till my father got home with his pay packet. I was lucky, I got a break which was getting a bursary place in a school and then later on joining the RAF, both these things were driven by my father who wanted better for me. Without the first I couldn't have really have done the second and the second taught me many things (self discipline for a start) which added to my 'drive' to better myself in life.

Because of my own experiences I don't think there are many who 'choose' to be poor and live in poverty and what some may call squaller. Yes there are some who refuse to work, have no drive and are happy to live on the money the state provides, some even do quite well out of the state we are led to believe.

Unfortunately it is money that decides things, or more to the point not having much when we talk about poverty. Poverty can also mean not having any money. I said about people growing their veg in France, perhaps some do it so they can spend the money they would normally spend on food on other things. Perhaps some here grow their own food and use the money to have Internet access which in turn gets them on to this forum. Others may grow veg because they really have to and its not an option as after paying to keep a roof over their heads they have little or no money left. Perhaps it makes the difference between having and not having a warm coat or fuel for a fire in the winter.

One thing for sure is that defining poverty is a difficult thing so just to throw some definitions up in the air to see where they land I shall quote a couple.

Oxford English Dictionary - "the state of having little or no money and few or no material possessions"

wikipedia - "Poverty refers to the condition of not having the means to afford basic human needs such as clean water, nutrition, health care,education, clothing and shelter. This is also referred to as absolute poverty or destitution. ..."

wiktionary - "The quality or state of being poor or indigent; want or scarcity of means of subsistence; indigence; need; Any deficiency of elements or resources that are needed or desired, or that constitute richness."

South African Government - "A certain level of material deprivation below which an individual suffers physically, emotionally and socially." (for me possibly the best definition)

Combat Poverty - "People are said to be living in poverty if their income and resources are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living considered acceptable in society."

Think Quest - "The state of living on less than $2 a day, according to the World Bank. Poverty can also represent a lack of opportunity and empowerment, and bad quality of life in general."

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Just to clarify what I meant by "voluntary simplicity" - it is nothing new at all!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living

 

as an aspect of "la décroissance" in France, see this forum  http://forum.decroissance.info/viewforum.php?f=38

or this even this one, much more specific (freegans, who live out of the waste of others), French version http://forum.freegan.fr/

WARNING:  the French forum on decroissance and the one on freegans both seem mainly populated by 20-year olds who can be amazingly clueless! (sorry if this value judgement is offensive to anyone!)

and UK version of Freegans: http://freegan.org.uk/index.php and

 

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[quote user="Richard51"]Someone who is poor has no choice, someone who 'chooses' to be poor isn't poor.

Mrs R51
[/quote]Quite.

Sorry, but I suspect  that nobody who has internet access and a computer (at home as opposed to in a public library, your school or wherever) will ever be definable as poor by any standards one may care to use.

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To pick up on Q's and 5-E's comments let me tell you a story.

 

An American was walking down an almost deserted beach south of Rio de Janero, when he cam across a twnety something chap lying in rather tatty jeans in the sun.

" Hi there, why aren't you working?"

"Well I am a fisherman and I caught some fish this morning, so now I am just sitting back"

"Why aren't you out this afternoon catching more fish?"

"Why would I want to do that?"

"Well so you could get some more money"

"What would I do with the money?"

"Well you could get a bigger boat"

"Why would I want a bigger boat?"

"So you could catch more fish"

It was clear that the Brazialian guy still wasn't getting it.

"And with more fish, you could get even more money"

"Then what would i do with all this money?"

"You could put it in a pension fund"

"And what do I do with the pension fund?"

"Well when you have enough, you retire and use the money to relax and lie on the beach"

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