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Halal - how widespread ?


chessie
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[quote user="pachapapa"]

See no reason for it to be more expensive in fact there will be a more efficient evacuation of blood as the animal is STILL ALIVE as the heart efficiently pumps the still at body temperature blood out.

[/quote]

Greater expense due to a specially trained slaughter man and regular involvement of Rabbi to ensure that kosher rules have been followed. I would be surprised if mechanisation is permitted - Rabbis normally require the slaughterer to be a pious Jew of good character. Similarly the rules of Halal require the slaughterer to be a Person of the Book (not necessarily a Muslim, see verse 5:5 of the Qur'an) who quotes God's name at the time of death.

Hence my contention that you would not go to all this trouble and then not label the meat as Halal or Kosher.

I do not hold strong preferences on methods of slaughter nor wish to join the arguments on the perceived rights and wrongs of the eating of meat and fish. As long as it remains legal I will continue to do it.

John

 

 

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Halal - how widespread ?

1 million Muslims in the UK. 8 million in France. Wild guess.................8 times more widespread?

I've even seen live sheep slaughtered in the street, and the blood run off into the drains. Can't rememeber which religious festivel. Eid?

Quick moved to Halal beef, with a big pub (on French TV).

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EEG tests on animals subjected to slaughter by Halal methods and by bolt gun etc have demonstrated that the Halal method is, in fact, more humane.  The single deep cut to the throat (severing both the jugular veins and carotid arteries) results in massive blood loss that causes immediate circulatory shock in the animal so that it, in effect, it becomes numb (no EEG (brain) activity seen for three minutes post incision).  During this three minute period death occurs.  In contrast, the bolt gun produces severe EEG activity and trauma until death.  (Studies were undertaken by the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany and the French Ministry of Food, Agriculture and Fishing as recently as 2008).  The efficient draining of blood (as has already pointed out) also produces better quality meat with less chance of putrefaction due to blood pooling in the tissues.

The bigger issue is whether the trend towards automation of Halal slaughter methods achieves the same humane death for the animal as that done by a trained and experienced individual.  Given a choice, I would eat properly slaughtered Halal / Kosher meat in preference to meat slaughtered by other methods.

Nevertheless, whatever your view on the above, food should be labelled correctly.

Mrs R51

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[quote user="Richard51"]

EEG tests on animals subjected to slaughter by Halal methods and by bolt gun etc have demonstrated that the Halal method is, in fact, more humane.  The single deep cut to the throat (severing both the jugular veins and carotid arteries) results in massive blood loss that causes immediate circulatory shock in the animal so that it, in effect, it becomes numb (no EEG (brain) activity seen for three minutes post incision).  During this three minute period death occurs.  In contrast, the bolt gun produces severe EEG activity and trauma until death.  (Studies were undertaken by the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany and the French Ministry of Food, Agriculture and Fishing as recently as 2008).  The efficient draining of blood (as has already pointed out) also produces better quality meat with less chance of putrefaction due to blood pooling in the tissues.

The bigger issue is whether the trend towards automation of Halal slaughter methods achieves the same humane death for the animal as that done by a trained and experienced individual.  Given a choice, I would eat properly slaughtered Halal / Kosher meat in preference to meat slaughtered by other methods.

Nevertheless, whatever your view on the above, food should be labelled correctly.

Mrs R51

[/quote]

Looks quite clean and wholesome with immediate circulatory shock.[:)]

A link to a you tube clip.....obviously filmed on a bad day when the main protagonists were not cooperating with the cameras.[:D]

The clip is entitled..La réalité de la viande halal ** AMES SENSIBLES S'ABSTENIR**....the french bit in CAPITALS means not for the faint hearted AND one must confirm that one is 18+ to view the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gngZ8-e2Jc0

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I have bought two fresh chicken today which were considerably cheaper than other grade A chickens, it was halal and marked as such in arabic and French.

I think it was Hugh FW who tried to get the British public to pay more for their chickens and not go for the battery farmed option and most people as I recall didn't really care , as long as the meat was cheap.

If people don't care how their food is raised, then why do they care how it is killed?
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  • 2 weeks later...

This evening on french television Canal + will feature a programme on religious animal slaughter according to a feature in the national press.

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/607343/media-les-medias-emparent-scandale-halal

It would appear that the halal slaughtering methods have similarities to other religious communities that import meat from Uruguay, according to PETA.

Link to undercover video by PETA in Uruguay; it is in english by the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To5luyYpVOU

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[quote user="Salty Sam"]PETA, the voice for animal welfare ? http://www.animalscam.com/ or http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

[/quote]

Thanks salty for your heads up on PETA activities.

I have learnt that they are against bullfighting; see link to below to their meretricious propaganda.

No way would I support them, even on religious cult killing of animals.

http://bit.ly/aBKIv6

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pachapapa -

Couldn't watch the French TV programme - and definitely couldn't watch any more scenes from slaughter-houses etc....

What's your problem with PETA ?   I thought they were one of the 'good guys' organisation who wanted all animals treated with compassion.

Do I understand that you are in favour of bull-fighting;  and that because PETA are not you wouldn't support ALL the other things that PETA is about ?   So because of one barbaric practice, you refuse to support PETA in its stand against another barbaric practice.  

Have I really got this right;  you would be against the 'cult'/'religious' killing of animals - but that you support bull-fighting ?

Bull-fighting ?  In this day and age ?   Really ?

Chessie

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[quote user="chessie"]

pachapapa -

Couldn't watch the French TV programme - and definitely couldn't watch any more scenes from slaughter-houses etc....

What's your problem with PETA ?   I thought they were one of the 'good guys' organisation who wanted all animals treated with compassion.

Do I understand that you are in favour of bull-fighting;  and that because PETA are not you wouldn't support ALL the other things that PETA is about ?   So because of one barbaric practice, you refuse to support PETA in its stand against another barbaric practice.  

Have I really got this right;  you would be against the 'cult'/'religious' killing of animals - but that you support bull-fighting ?

Bull-fighting ?  In this day and age ?   Really ?

Chessie
[/quote]

Until this evening I associated PETA with Brigitte Bardot caressing seals on Canadian Ice  Floes whilst waiting to be clubbed on the head with a pick axe handle. However having visited Salty Sams virulent anti PETA links I now realise how wrong I have been al these years.

PETA is an evil organisation engaged in a secret " doggy holocaust" BUT I also viewed a short video of a bull being killed.

When I had seen this I suddenly had a Eureka moment and realised that the killing of a bull in a bullfight arena was actually humane in comparison with the disgusting degradation of religious slaughter of living animals where the warm life blood flows from the throat whilst the animal is still alive.

So the video evidence is conclusive I find religious slaughter abhorrent and the killing of the bull in a bullfight a humane and dignified manner of despatching a bull.

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[quote user="Gardener"]I have bought two fresh chicken today which were considerably cheaper than other grade A chickens, it was halal and marked as such in arabic and French. I think it was Hugh FW who tried to get the British public to pay more for their chickens and not go for the battery farmed option and most people as I recall didn't really care , as long as the meat was cheap. If people don't care how their food is raised, then why do they care how it is killed?[/quote]

Excellent point, Gardener. Nobody else seems to have taken it up, which is a shame! It bothers me quite a lot too  - I wonder how many who go for cheap cheap cheap meat and close their eyes to the mode of production, but will be up in arms at the thought of halal.

Mrs. R., thank you for your account of halal meat - I had been wondering about that.

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Interesting thus far, no one seems to have picked up on an even worse reality than UK supermarkets selling Hal Al meat without obvious notice to consumers.

For some considerable time, certain schools, prisons, hospitals et al in UK have been covertly using ALL Hal Al slaughter meat. Their stated reason is this simplifies matters when followers of Islam demand Hal Al slaughter: or could take legal action under Human Rights legislation.

This is not a prototypical Daily Mail story, BTW: it's been well documented and tabulated for some time.

Thus Government has wimped out of any level of moral integrity and is allowing a mere 4% of population to drive policy and force a covert strategy of surreptitious  removal of free choice and decision.

Now this for me is more frightening..................

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[quote user="5-element"]

[quote user="Gardener"]I have bought two fresh chicken today which were considerably cheaper than other grade A chickens, it was halal and marked as such in arabic and French. I think it was Hugh FW who tried to get the British public to pay more for their chickens and not go for the battery farmed option and most people as I recall didn't really care , as long as the meat was cheap. If people don't care how their food is raised, then why do they care how it is killed?[/quote]

Excellent point, Gardener. Nobody else seems to have taken it up, which is a shame! It bothers me quite a lot too  - I wonder how many who go for cheap cheap cheap meat and close their eyes to the mode of production, but will be up in arms at the thought of halal.

Mrs. R., thank you for your account of halal meat - I had been wondering about that.

[/quote]

Strange that such an account of  halal/kosher meat which is so humane requires signing in and declaring ones age before being able to view the clip.

As for example:

Pour regarder cette vidéo ou accéder à ce groupe, vous devez confirmer que vous êtes âgé d'au moins 18 ans en vous connectant ou en vous inscrivant.

The Electro Encelo Grafo doesn'tcut much ice with me. Take time out and check a few videos.

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[quote user="5-element"]

[quote user="Gardener"]I have bought two fresh chicken today which were considerably cheaper than other grade A chickens, it was halal and marked as such in arabic and French. I think it was Hugh FW who tried to get the British public to pay more for their chickens and not go for the battery farmed option and most people as I recall didn't really care , as long as the meat was cheap. If people don't care how their food is raised, then why do they care how it is killed?[/quote]

Excellent point, Gardener. Nobody else seems to have taken it up, which is a shame! It bothers me quite a lot too  - I wonder how many who go for cheap cheap cheap meat and close their eyes to the mode of production, but will be up in arms at the thought of halal.

Mrs. R., thank you for your account of halal meat - I had been wondering about that.

[/quote]

Strange that such an account of  halal/kosher meat which is so humane requires signing in and declaring ones age before being able to view the clip.

As for example:

Pour regarder cette vidéo ou accéder à ce groupe, vous devez confirmer que vous êtes âgé d'au moins 18 ans en vous connectant ou en vous inscrivant.

The Electro Encelo Grafo doesn't cut much ice with me. Take time out and check a few videos.

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

For some considerable time, certain schools, prisons, hospitals et al in UK have been covertly using ALL Hal Al slaughter meat. Their stated reason is this simplifies matters when followers of Islam demand Hal Al slaughter: or could take legal action under Human Rights legislation.

This is not a prototypical Daily Mail story, BTW: it's been well documented and tabulated for some time.
[/quote]

Would that also include pig, which is also freely available within the stated institutions although I doubt it being Halal ?

One doesn't need to be reader of the Daily Mail to get sensationalist tales Gluestick. Simply following some of the contributions here are enough.

[quote]I would be more worried about eating pork in the UK as a large percentage are stunned then gassed using C02 which of course gets in the meat, not a nice way to die by affixation.[/quote]

No longer a "large percentage" in the UK although still used extensively in Denmark - the source of good Danish bacon. If Quillan is that worried about ingesting CO2, better take a closer look at what you eat and drink.

If the animal is stunned before being slaughtered, what difference does it make if it's done Halal, Kosher, or via a 'conventional' Western method ? Do members honestly believe there is that much of a difference in approved slaughter methods ? Or is it simply the fact we are being sold a product where the method of slaughter is not identified ? 

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[quote user="Salty Sam"]

One doesn't need to be reader of the Daily Mail to get sensationalist tales Gluestick. Simply following some of the contributions here are enough.[/quote]

Interestingly, Saline Sam, I don't base my own researches on opinion and anecdotal items from fora: as a writer and sometimes freelance journalist one needs rather more credible sources for jaundiced and cynical editors................

Unless it's the Daily Sport and similar of course.

[Www]

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[quote user="Gluestick"]Interesting thus far, no one seems to have picked up on an even worse reality than UK supermarkets selling Hal Al meat without obvious notice to consumers.

For some considerable time, certain schools, prisons, hospitals et al in UK have been covertly using ALL Hal Al slaughter meat. Their stated reason is this simplifies matters when followers of Islam demand Hal Al slaughter: or could take legal action under Human Rights legislation.

This is not a prototypical Daily Mail story, BTW: it's been well documented and tabulated for some time.

Thus Government has wimped out of any level of moral integrity and is allowing a mere 4% of population to drive policy and force a covert strategy of surreptitious  removal of free choice and decision.

Now this for me is more frightening..................

[/quote]

I'm not sure whether the 4% are really driving the policy. For most Muslims the meat has to be halal,for every one else it just has to be dead.

There are plenty of places that muslim people can buy halal meat I haven't heard that they have been protesting that they can't get it anywhere in Europe, but for bigger meat processing businesses it makes sense to try and tap into that market also.

Abbatoirs and meat companies are doing it to maximise profits rather than any pressure from anyone, if there is enough furore from the 96%  about it, they will stop- not for religious reasons but financial ones.

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I fear you are rather missing the point, Gardener.

Prisoners, patients and young pupils are not being given a choice: other than Hobson's. This clearly isn't driven by any market economy dynamic.

UK government in many cases are compelling supply to avoid offending the dietary eccentricities of a very small minority.

Many parents are considerably exercised about this.

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[quote user="Gluestick"]I fear you are rather missing the point, Gardener.

Prisoners, patients and young pupils are not being given a choice: other than Hobson's. This clearly isn't driven by any market economy dynamic.

UK government in many cases are compelling supply to avoid offending the dietary eccentricities of a very small minority.

Many parents are considerably exercised about this.

[/quote]

Source?

Why? I there any evidence that this meat is harmful to health?

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[quote user="Gluestick"]I fear you are rather missing the point, Gardener.

Prisoners, patients and young pupils are not being given a choice: other than Hobson's. This clearly isn't driven by any market economy dynamic.
When did this choice suddenly matter- not until the last couple of weeks ? I have never wandered around a UK or French supermarket wondering about how or where an animal was slaughtered. Whether it was free range, organic, aberdeen angus or whatever yes, but how it met its maker , never. Most business probably never thought to mention it because they probably thought no one really would give a fig, unless they could turn it into yet another issue to beat Islam with.  How many people who tuck into their curries (cooked by Islamic men) after throwing out time on a weekend have ever been concerned where their meat came from?
UK government in many cases are compelling supply to avoid offending the dietary eccentricities of a very small minority.
I don't think the UK gov past or present can be held to account for this one
Many parents are considerably exercised about this.
The same parents who when Jamie Oliver tried to get kids off turkey twizzlers and onto something healthy, did a chip run at lunchtimes or different parents?

[/quote]

A free range chicken killed halal or a battery chicken killed 'humanely', I know what I'd opt for every time.

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For most people in the UK the question of 'how' an animal is slaughtered is not one that would be foremost in their minds when shopping.

Cost - yes.

Free range - RSPCA approved - quite likely.

BUT - MOST people in the UK are Christians;  most people believe that the animals are slaughtered in a humane way.   After all that's why we have rules, and regulations, and inspectors, and RSPCA and local councils .

There is - and has been for years - an unspoken, but generally understood, belief that the animal slaughtered would have been done so in a humane way.

After all, as I understood it, Halal slaughter was declared ILLEGAL - except for religious grounds - in the UK.   This was after many years of battling, petitioning, publicising the cruelties involved in animal slaughter anyway.   But the Halal- was madee an exception - a VERY SMALL exception - for a small group.

When people are questioned about this, most - on humane, compassionate grounds - find the slaughter and the torture and the distress that goes with Hala killing - to be offensive.

Most people in the UK would be horrified if they knew that what they were buying had been slaughtered in the Halal way.

The POINT - THE MAIN POINT - which Gluestick has pointed out - and most of you are overlooking - is that thtis is NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSLIMS - NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING ....and to confuse the argument is not worthy of any of you.

We are being TRICKED and DECEIVED.

We are NOT being told that there is now this two-fold 'choice' going on.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD.

NO INFORMATION.

NOTHING.

A large number of people DO trust the RSPCA for their labels on free-range meat and free-range eggs.   Unfortunately, the RSPCA, as has been shown in recent programms - can itself no longer be trusted.

It would NEVER occur to me to ask - until now - whether the meat I had purchased had been slaughtered in as much of a compassionate and humane way as possible, or whether it had been Halalad.   And don't any of you dare to patronise the British shopper - a large number DO care what they feed their families and children.   So stop patronising please.

BUT WHY should I NEED TO ASK - in the UK - where the practice is illegal - I HAVE TO ASK WHETHER THE MEAT I AM BUYING HAS BEEN SLAUGHTERED IN WHAT - TO MOST PEOPLE - IS CONSIDERED TO BE A CRUEL AND SADISTIC WAY OF KILLING ANI MAL.

Have you all gone STARK, RAVING BARKING  MAD  ?

Don't any of you - any of you at all - see the inherent IMMORALITY in what has been taking place.

Don't any of you consider that this is wrong ?

Don't any of you have any morals,  or standards,  or compassion at all ???

What planets are most of you living on?    I just despai8r - I really do.

Chessie

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[quote user="chessie"]For most people in the UK the question of 'how' an animal is slaughtered is not one that would be foremost in their minds when shopping.

Cost - yes.

Free range - RSPCA approved - quite likely.

BUT - MOST people in the UK are Christians; 

WHAT THE HECK DOES CHRISTIANITY HAVE TO DO WITH IT?

most people believe that the animals are slaughtered in a humane way.   After all that's why we have rules, and regulations, and inspectors, and RSPCA and local councils .

There is - and has been for years - an unspoken, but generally understood, belief that the animal slaughtered would have been done so in a humane way.

After all, as I understood it, Halal slaughter was declared ILLEGAL - except for religious grounds - in the UK.   This was after many years of battling, petitioning, publicising the cruelties involved in animal slaughter anyway.   But the Halal- was madee an exception - a VERY SMALL exception - for a small group.

When people are questioned about this, most - on humane, compassionate grounds - find the slaughter and the torture and the distress that goes with Hala killing - to be offensive.

MOST PEOPLE ? -EVIDENCE?

Most people in the UK would be horrified if they knew that what they were buying had been slaughtered in the Halal way.

The POINT - THE MAIN POINT - which Gluestick has pointed out - and most of you are overlooking - is that thtis is NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSLIMS - NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING ....and to confuse the argument is not worthy of any of you.

GLUESTICK IMPLIED THAT HALAL WAS BEING IMPLEMENTED TO APPEASE 4 % OF THE

POPULATION EG MUSLIMS

We are being TRICKED and DECEIVED

.

We are NOT being told that there is now this two-fold 'choice' going on.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD.

NO INFORMATION.

NOTHING.

A large number of people DO trust the RSPCA for their labels on free-range meat and free-range eggs.   Unfortunately, the RSPCA, as has been shown in recent programms - can itself no longer be trusted.

It would NEVER occur to me to ask - until now - whether the meat I had purchased had been slaughtered in as much of a compassionate and humane way as possible, or whether it had been Halalad.  

'UNTIL NOW' EXACTLY MY POINT . THIS WILL DIE DOWN AND BECOME NEXT WEEKS CHIP PAPER AND IT WILL CARRY ON

And don't any of you dare to patronise the British shopper - a large number DO care what they feed their families and children.   So stop patronising please.

YOUR PREVIOUS SENTENCE NEGATES THAT.

AND I THINK A LARGE PROPORTION DON'T. I DON'T HAVE FIGURES AND NEITHER IT APPEARS DOES ANY ONE ELSE.

BUT WHY should I NEED TO ASK - in the UK - where the practice is illegal - I HAVE TO ASK WHETHER THE MEAT I AM BUYING HAS BEEN SLAUGHTERED IN WHAT - TO MOST PEOPLE - IS CONSIDERED TO BE A CRUEL AND SADISTIC WAY OF KILLING ANI MAL.

Have you all gone STARK, RAVING BARKING  MAD  ?

IT'S NOT ILLEGAL

Don't any of you - any of you at all - see the inherent IMMORALITY in what has been taking place.

Don't any of you consider that this is wrong ?

Don't any of you have any morals,  or standards,  or compassion at all ???

What planets are most of you living on?    I just despai8r - I really do.

Chessie

[/quote]

IF I FELT THAT STRONGLY ABOUT ANIMAL WELFARE , I'D BECOME A VEGETARIAN; EITHER WAY AN ANIMAL IS KILLED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION AND LET'S NOT PRETEND THAT THE ANIMALS IN ANY ABBATOIRS DO NOT SUFFER;
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