Strike, Tuesday 19th October

[woolybanana]

What a load of old bankers; really, this stupid strike gets more and more farcical. I can understand that some groups of workers should be entitled to early retirement because of the hard jobs they do (pénibilité de travail), but this evening on the news, BANK WORKERS were demanding early retirement because their job is so tough. For the sake of the great Bobo, the only thing they are likely to have is piles!

[NormanH]

I think many immigrants have in insufficient grasp of the

history and political culture of France to be able to conceptualise how the system works here.

If in addition they have had their brains damaged by years of 

swallowing Thatcherite propaganda, it is hardly surprising they are

reduced to complaining about the strikers instead of trying to

understand them

This article gives a fair idea:

http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/chronique/2010/09/27/citoyens-acteurs-ou-spectateurs_1416306_3232.html

A few quotations:

"«Bien sûr qu'on va faire retirer le projet de loi par le pouvoir de la

rue. L'histoire sociale de notre pays est là pour rappeler que ce que le Parlement peut voter, la rue peut le défaire»

"Quand

le gouvernement viole les droits du peuple, l'insurrection est pour le

peuple, et pour chaque portion du peuple le plus sacré des droits et le

plus indispensable des

devoirs.

As for whether or not the rest of the population support the strikes, here is a table:

http://ownilive.com/2010/10/19/soutien-aux-greves-deux-camps-de-plus-en-plus-marques-dans-les-sondages/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

There is of course a big difference between demonstrating,

or striking in protest, which are legal, and blocking petrol refineries

or access to vital services which are not.

Many of the violent confrontations and damage being done (such as

burning down a school today) are the result of other deep tensions

[woolybanana]

Norman, you are a charming chap and a delightful barrel liver, but you do talk some *hit sometimes. At this time there is a certain hysteria by journos seeking to make their place, and by a certain bunch of power -seeking trade unionists who cannot face democracy and who are trying to hijack it by harnessing the mindless vested interest of those immoral and useless *ricks who think the State owes them a living because they work 'for the government'.

Move beyond and grow a little, even if you are old and prejudiced and sclerotic.[6]

 

[pachapapa]

Plus for the bananas today; the oscilating callypgian bums will traverse the Vendée next year.[;-)]

[woolybanana]

One for the ladies, I think! Clair [6]

[betty]

[quote user="NormanH"]

Many of the violent confrontations and damage being done (such as burning down a school today) are the result of other deep tension

[/quote]

Deep tension! don't you mean arson?

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]What a load of old bankers; really, this stupid strike gets more and more farcical. I can understand that some groups of workers should be entitled to early retirement because of the hard jobs they do (pénibilité de travail), but this evening on the news, BANK WORKERS were demanding early retirement because their job is so tough. For the sake of the great Bobo, the only thing they are likely to have is piles![/quote]

Funny enough only one bank out of four in our town walked out (Caisse D'Epargne).

[betty]

I suspect the others had difficulty due to their piles.

[Quillan]

I read the Le Monde article as well and understand what he is saying. However the truth of the matter is that France, like the UK, Germany, Spain, Greece etc all have the same problems but in different degrees which is more money going out than whats coming in. Its not complicated, its just like running your household budget, if you go further and further in to debt the only way out is to cut back. The problem is that when you do this somebody or something has to suffer. If they leave the pensions as they are then something else has to be cut more but what, education, health, armed forces, police, any more cuts to anything will upset people. I think the problem here (like on this forum) is not so much that people don't understand the French and compare whats going on in the UK to whats going on in France its that they think its just their particular country that has a problem when if you look around its most of Europe and the US. Seems to me we are all much in the same boat but to different degrees facing the same problems.

[Braco]

I for one would be happy for all these sacred cows especially the armed forces to be put to the sword.

Not sure what the people of France think, but many people in the UK are either in denial or ignorant of the true facts.

Government spending needs to be cut back by at least 50% and then more modest yearly reductions. What we will get instead is a defacto 50% devaluation of the currency (purchasing power) over next decade and stagflation.

[5-element]

[quote user="NormanH"]I think many immigrants have in insufficient grasp of the history and political culture of France to be able to conceptualise how the system works here.

Many of the violent confrontations and damage being done (such as burning down a school today) are the result of other deep tension

[/quote]

Hear, hear.

as for having some clue about sources of deep tension, one could do worse than watching this

http://tele.premiere.fr/News-Videos/VIDEO-Pieces-a-conviction-Elise-Lucet-enquete-sur-l-ultraviolence-des-cites-ce-soir/(gid)/2433418

which was shown a couple of days ago. Of course, it is in French.

[Frenchie]

I saw it last night on TV . Excellent report.

Scary but excellent.

The result of decades of despise and rejection. When you re considered as second rate citizens, you unfortunately can become wild ...

For your info, people who can read French

>
> Ils se gardent bien d'en parler !
> Par un vote du 3 septembre 2010, les députés ont rejeté à la
> quasi-unanimité l'amendement n°249 Rect. proposant d'aligner leur régime
> spécifique de retraite (dont bénéficient également les membres du
> gouvernement) sur le régime général des salariés.
> Alors qu'ils n'ont de cesse d'expliquer l'importance de réformer
> rapidement un régime de retraite en déficit, les parlementaires refusent
> donc d'être soumis au régime de retraite de la majorité des Français.
> C'est ce qu'ils appellent une réforme "juste" paraît-il !
> A faire suivre.
> Les Français ont le droit de savoir ...
> source : www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/amendements/2770/277000249.asp 

[woolybanana]

Yes Frenchie, just another interest group trying to protect its rice bowl.

The demonstrators have a right to influence the vote, of course they do, but their demands have been unrealistic and nonsensensical. Nor have they put forward any viable alternatives beyond a kind of knee jerk 'soak the rich' chant or 'let's all change society so we can continue as we always have done'.

Where those demands were made clearly, such as guaranteeing the right to retire early of women and those in tough jobs, they were met immediately, whereas their blanket 'niet' was not.

Their interests are two-fold: protecting the minorities who have had it good under the old retirement regimes and getting into power. However, Sarko knows that their unity is only skin deep and that if he can hold on a bit longer, then their differences will emerge and they will be at each other's throats like tom cats in a sack with a queen.

The advent of violence was caused directly by the Socialist Barbie 'Look at my lovely hair and don't read my lips' Segolene Royale who called the kids onto the streets. The casseurs followed as sure as fleas follow dogs. She should be pilloried for such stupidity.

There is a mystery as to who else supports this strike; I have been asking round and have yet to find anyone who is for it. Certainly, the hard working folk who would have to continue paying the bills, the 2 million people who run small companies in France, certainly do not, and they are the true generators of wealth here, the seedcorn if you like.

If one listens to the likes of Besancenoet (spelling?) mouthing off about mob rule and getting rid of the government, it is clear that the idea of change through the loudest shout is the domain of the biggest gob on the left and is certainly not within the mainstream in France. And it suits the fonctionnaires who are the mainstay of this strike as they continue to be paid for doing *ugger all, whilst hoping to maintain their spoilt way of life.

There is no French way Normie, just politicians using people for their own ends.

 

[pachapapa]

WB, looks like Donges may smoulder on a bit, so the Vendée may not remain so smug.[:)]

http://actu.voila.fr/actualites/france/2010/10/20/depots-de-carburant-les-grevistes-bloquent-a-nouveau-les-acces-a-donges-la-rochelle-et-le-mans-debloques_601866.html?error=true

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Braco"]I for one would be happy for all these sacred cows especially the armed forces to be put to the sword. [/quote] You are, of course, perfectly entitled to your opinion of the Armed Forces and you may rest assured that they will, as ever, defend you and your right to that opinion (odd though it may be)

[Braco]

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to your opinion of the Armed Forces and you may rest assured that they will, as ever, defend you and your right to that opinion (odd though it may be)

I do not buy into any of the politics of fear and do not require protection.

Do not confuse defence with aggression.

The solution is pretty simple - open up live ammunition paint ball parks for any one who wants to play at hero’s.

 

[Rose]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Yes Frenchie, just another interest group trying to protect its rice bowl.

The demonstrators have a right to influence the vote, of course they do, but their demands have been unrealistic and nonsensensical. Nor have they put forward any viable alternatives beyond a kind of knee jerk 'soak the rich' chant or 'let's all change society so we can continue as we always have done'.

Where those demands were made clearly, such as guaranteeing the right to retire early of women and those in tough jobs, they were met immediately, whereas their blanket 'niet' was not.

Their interests are two-fold: protecting the minorities who have had it good under the old retirement regimes and getting into power. However, Sarko knows that their unity is only skin deep and that if he can hold on a bit longer, then their differences will emerge and they will be at each other's throats like tom cats in a sack with a queen.

The advent of violence was caused directly by the Socialist Barbie 'Look at my lovely hair and don't read my lips' Segolene Royale who called the kids onto the streets. The casseurs followed as sure as fleas follow dogs. She should be pilloried for such stupidity.

There is a mystery as to who else supports this strike; I have been asking round and have yet to find anyone who is for it. Certainly, the hard working folk who would have to continue paying the bills, the 2 million people who run small companies in France, certainly do not, and they are the true generators of wealth here, the seedcorn if you like.

If one listens to the likes of Besancenoet (spelling?) mouthing off about mob rule and getting rid of the government, it is clear that the idea of change through the loudest shout is the domain of the biggest gob on the left and is certainly not within the mainstream in France. And it suits the fonctionnaires who are the mainstay of this strike as they continue to be paid for doing *ugger all, whilst hoping to maintain their spoilt way of life.

There is no French way Normie, just politicians using people for their own ends.

[/quote]

Thank you for the voice of reason WB.

[woolybanana]

[quote user="Braco"]

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to your opinion of the Armed Forces and you may rest assured that they will, as ever, defend you and your right to that opinion (odd though it may be)

I do not buy into any of the politics of fear and do not require protection.

Do not confuse defence with aggression.

The solution is pretty simple - open up live ammunition paint ball parks for any one who wants to play at hero’s.

 

[/quote]

So, my family members who gave their lives protecting UK from Nazism and liberating Europe should have turned out with tea and cakes and helped those nice stormtroopers ashore when they invaded? I'll try and tell them that when I go to put flowers on the cold grey places where they lie for eternity.

You would be the first to howl for help when some jackbooted Nazi came after you with rape in mind. Just thank Bobo we have decent troops who can defend us, as well as such people as the Falkland Islanders and who will give their lives to do so.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Braco"]

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to your opinion of the Armed Forces and you may rest assured that they will, as ever, defend you and your right to that opinion (odd though it may be)

I do not buy into any of the politics of fear and do not require protection.

Do not confuse defence with aggression.

The solution is pretty simple - open up live ammunition paint ball parks for any one who wants to play at hero’s.

 

[/quote] Braco, you seem to have a very 'jaundiced' view of the Military. A view that, I suspect, cannot be changed by logical argument so I will not waste my time trying. Suffice to only say that Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen (male and female) do not "play" at hero's. ps I do know the difference between defence and attack (aggression).

[Frenchie]

[quote user="5-element"][quote user="NormanH"]I think many immigrants have in insufficient grasp of the history and political culture of France to be able to conceptualise how the system works here.

 

[/quote]

Hear, hear.

[/quote]

Agreed.

Sorry WB, but you and most folks on here talk like reactionaries and rant about "how inconvenient" it all is to them personally.and spread false information.

I feel personally insulted as a civil servant, because I  don't have a spoilt life, all I wish is to protect my right to retire at 60 , in order to be able to enjoy a few years while I'm ( hopefully) still in quite good health.

They hope we will retire at 60 ,  under their new law, thus losing 5% a year..   less money to pay..

Yet, check the link I ve posted this morning, the parliamentaries have excluded themselves from the law to protect their own privileges....

And for some reason they don't boast about it .............................

Segolène Royal ( I'm not a fan..) has NOT put the stdents on the streets, they were already there.

Don't you think they have a right to worry about their chance to get job when they are said that we, the elder, will have to work til we are almost 70 ????

Of course all this is causing inconvenience, but you get nothing without it.

They have re opened the refineries ( spelling ?) , yet, people are blocking the roads..

All the government is trying to get is violence, so they can point at the strikers and say how bad they are.

Honest peole feel despised, unheard, and the government does no longer have the support of the majority of French people at the moment, whatever you think of it, is that emocracy.

What about a referendum on this retiremen law??

Nooooo, they 're too scared for it.

 

 

[woolybanana]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

WB, looks like Donges may smoulder on a bit, so the Vendée may not remain so smug.[:)]

http://actu.voila.fr/actualites/france/2010/10/20/depots-de-carburant-les-grevistes-bloquent-a-nouveau-les-acces-a-donges-la-rochelle-et-le-mans-debloques_601866.html?error=true

[/quote]

Bet the CRS use the back entrance to get the trucks in. But they were silly billies to walk away and leave it open for the Trots to do more damage.

[Frenchie]

5-element wrote:  NormanH wrote: I think many immigrants have in insufficient grasp of the history and political culture of France to be able to conceptualise how the system works here.   Hear, hear. Agreed. Sorry WB, but you and most folks on here talk like reactionaries and rant about "how inconvenient" it all is to them personally.and spread false information. I feel personally insulted as a civil servant, because I  don't have a spoilt life, all I wish is to protect my right to retire at 60 , in order to be able to enjoy a few years while I'm ( hopefully) still in quite good health. They hope we will retire at 60 ,  under their new law, thus losing 5% a year..   less money to pay.. Yet, check the link I ve posted this morning, the parliamentaries have excluded themselves from the law to protect their own privileges.... And for some reason they don't boast about it ............................. Segolène Royal ( I'm not a fan..) has NOT put the stdents on the streets, they were already there. Don't you think they have a right to worry about their chance to get job when they are said that we, the elder, will have to work til we are almost 70 ???? Of course all this is causing inconvenience, but you get nothing without it. They have re opened the refineries ( spelling ?) , yet, people are blocking the roads.. All the government is trying to get is violence, so they can point at the strikers and say how bad they are. Honest peole feel despised, unheard, and the government does no longer have the support of the majority of French people at the moment, whatever you think of it, is that democracy.? What about a referendum on this retiremen law?? Nooooo, they 're too scared for it.

[Stan Streason]

Just because this is "the french way" or its always been like this does not make it right.  In todays global economy there must be more left to the free market.  I am an accountant in UK dealing with owner managed businesses and truly believe that these are the lifeblood of our economy. 

It is only anecdotal from this site but the taxes levvied on setting up your own business in France seem to be punative. 

One French builder I know is being constantly harried to take on an apprentice and is being offered a tidy sum to do so as an incentive.  He needs an assistant and has the work for them and there are plenty of unemployed youngsters who need a job but if he takes someone on and they turn out to be poor he cannot get rid of them and it will cost him an arm and a leg for evermore.   There are quite clear statistics (I just cant put my hands on them now), the greater the freedom of labour movement ultimately the greater the number of people employed.

I have been working in the labour market in the same profession for over 40 years and have only been with 3 firms.  Of my 3 sons, 2 have already changed job tack completely and all 3 have already worked for more firms than me and expect many more.  (And they are doing very will in "proper" graduate standard jobs not just  non or semi-skilled work.).  Times are changing.

The only groups of people actually protected by high levels of employee rights are the lazy and inefficient.  There will always be individual sob stories and a proper welfare state shoud catch these but on the whole creating a situation where employee movement is much more fluid ultimately creates more jobs and keeps more people in work than effectively preventing small potential employers from expanding by making taking on employees prohibitive.

[Frenchie]

Gosh, reading this, I'm so happy to be French..........

[woolybanana]

So, Frenchie, you admit that the strikers are largely state paid workers trying to protect their privileges, then Frenchie? And that the majority of French people do NOT have the opportunity to retire at 60 because they have to work to pay for those privileges, and because the system is too inflexible to allow anyone to buy les trimestres that they have lost through study?

And who is gonna pay for right to retire so young?