Why strike? And who?

[Jon02]

May I ask a simple question? I ask it because it hasn't been addressed in any press or posts that I've read here or indeed anywhere.

There are a number (36?) of special retirement regimes, strange but that's France for you. These regimes seem to cover the likes of primary school teachers, employees of the Paris Opera, SNCF?  Marseille crane operators?. Etc, etc. People enlisted in these professions, I assume, as a lifestyle choice on the lines of do this job (maybe the pay isn't too hot) and then retire at 50 (e.g. for the Opera).

My question is what happens to the retirement age of the folk in the special regimes once the reforms are activated? My own view is that the changes to 60 to 62 or 65 to 67 simply goes in the 'life's a bitch and then you die' bucket, the demographics simply won't let the State do otherwise. But if I had enlisted in a profession with the specific aim of retiring at 50 or 55 or whatever and the State unilaterally revoked my contract and added 5 or 7 years to my term I would probably be amongst the first to the barricades.

Does anyone have a simple anwer?

[Braco]

The answer is really quite simply. While we work we pay for the current retiree’s. When we retire we hope that the then current workforce will pay for us. In effect a Ponzi scheme whose limitations are now exposed. There are two options:

1. Live within the countries means.

2. Devalue savings (QE).

 

Option 2 is at best a short term solution.

 

By all means join the barricades but I don’t think you will be joined by many who don’t believe in the golden money tree.

[Chancer]

Maybe the pay isnt too hot?

Have a look at this video (ignore the first few seconds of adverts) and decide for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2yrFhOWNVA

[Jon02]

Braco, I don't believe in money trees any more than you do. I agree that the French are going to have to join the real world at some point. Soon is best or it just gets worse.. .

Chancer, thanks for that. Agreed that they have a life style that they can't maintain. I've seen an equivalent clip for the cheminots but haven't yet found a copy on the web.

Do I take it then that all the strike emotion stems from the special regimes? And if so are there genuine cases of an abrupt change of qualifying age? Or is there a taper somewhere which is designed to wean them off?

[woolybanana]

Well, it was obvious that most of the strikers were special regimes - in other words, people who by hook or by crook were determined to hand on to their highly priviledged positions, regardless of the needs or abilities of their fellow citizens to pay for it.

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Well, it was obvious that most of the strikers were special regimes - in other words, people who by hook or by crook were determined to hand on to their highly priviledged positions, regardless of the needs or abilities of their fellow citizens to pay for it.[/quote]

Like a lot of the early-retired Brits living In France perhaps?  Like people from the higher and further education sectors from the UK?

[woolybanana]

Yes, definitely, Tony, plus a whole host of other trades, often paid for by the State in some form or other.

[Chancer]

Are the cheminots, routiers, gruetiers and whetever else rhymes facing their retireent ages jumping between 7 and 12 years or just 2?

I think for the moment it is just 2 years like everyone else but they must know the writing is on the wall.

I saw my retired cheminot pen pusher pal last night, if there was anyone that is in need of the routine and challenge of a job it is him, he seems to be permanantly stressed and only seems to relax when he is on one of his many long holidays for which he and from what I can gather all his distant relatives take the TGV free of charge.

He was really winding it in to a young guy who works for SNCF (must be young to be still working) demanding he find an explanation and report back as to why he and his new girlfriend were delayed 30 minutes at Lille for a TGV, he was really outraged and it was cruel of me to ask him if he had considered that it might perhaps have been industrial action but I couldnt resist it [6]

Probably one of the few times I have seen him lost for words but boy did everyone else laugh long and loud.

Its not the most scientific cross section of society but we have all sorts in our scuba diving club, nurses, doctors, foncs, a dentist, artisans, teachers, physio's kinés, SNCF workers, a pretty mixed bag, there were some very robust discussions during our week in Cassis during paques about the retirement regimes, syndicalistes etc from what I can see only the retired SNCF penpusher (he is 55) seemed to be pro for fighting to maintain the status quo, he got a lot of stick from all the others who reckoned he did not live in the real worls and did not know he was alive.

The one who seems to get a really hard deal which surprised me was the dentist, he is still working at I think 68 has to run his cabi,et on his own and cannot find anyone to take over from him as all the new dentists being trained just want to work for the state hospitals. Something to do with earlier retirement and a shorter working week, my pal the dentist by necessity has to work very very long hours.

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Yes, definitely, Tony, plus a whole host of other trades, often paid for by the State in some form or other.[/quote]

I find it really bizarre that the discussion about the strike has generated so much heat among British people, a good number of whom are likely to be living in France because they got good deals and early retirement from a government or employers that clearly, according to UK television and newpapers, are in an equally difficult situation with all the talk of the black holes in UK pension systems, the need for bale-outs and pension schemes running huge defecits.

So who's under statutory retirement age and drawing down their pensions from their previous employers and are willing to give up their gold-plated early retirement deals (or any of the other descriptions used to describe what the French get) to help out their government which is also in dire straits or their pension schemes?

This is, of course, a rhetorical question .............

[Gluestick]

Couple of comments.

Retirement ages have differed across the World.

See here:

Most Tax Authorities have allowed "Special Case" retirements well before the norm for those engaged in unusual or hazardous activities: sportspeople, deep sea divers (Caisson's Disease) and perhaps the most angry making one of all for normal mortals, money brokers! etc.

Also I believe, what has to be remembered is post World War Two, certain activities were treated as essential for the post-war reconstruction: this included train companies' staff, bus drivers, PTT workers (postal telegraph and telephone) as infrastructure workers were perceived as critical in re-creating and maintaining holistic communications. As an example, bus drivers in Spain were treated well above the norm in wages and conditions of employment.

What is necessary now is an unwinding of those archaic sinecures: and the establishment, perhaps of a level playing field.

That said, going about this like a bull in a china shop, whilst politically expedient, is bound to create union tension and social friction. More so in France since the relationship between workers and government and thus politicians has always been one of distrust (From citizens), since the movers and shakers and deal makers started carving up control post 1799 : let's face it, they have due cause from their experiences before during and after WWI and more particularly, pre, during and post WWII!

A ready example of how not to do it is perhaps well espoused by Call Me Dave and Co's attack on tax allowances for private pension contributions: after NuLab's changes not too many years earlier.

And this in an epoch which has seen pension "Pots" skittered away by incompetent funds managers and their pals in the trading rooms.

And before the righteously injured point out public sector and state retirement pensions are different from private sector and contributory pensions on the basis that "We pay for state and public sector pensions" well, we all pay, in a way, for private sector pensions via tax breaks and concessions.

It is a mess: and mainly since instead of addressing the core problems and realities, once again, professional politicians have simply glossed over the rapidly accelerating problems, whilst the carried on fiddling whilst Rome burned.

For circa 30 years.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

[quote user="woolybanana"][/quote]

ISo who's under statutory retirement age and drawing down their pensions from their previous employers and are willing to give up their gold-plated early retirement deals (or any of the other descriptions used to describe what the French get) to help out their government which is also in dire straits or their pension schemes?

This is, of course, a rhetorical question .............

[/quote]

I will answer that, I am well under statutory retirement age, I fully expect it to be 70 by the time I would touch my reduced pension, I say would as I dont really expect to get anything either for being non resident, through being means tested or perhaps because they will raise the number of qualifying years.

I had also paid in as much money as I possibly could during all the years that I ran my businesses, these pension funds are now worth a cup of tea and a bun, nowhere near the amount that I paid in. Even if they do go up again I am pretty sure that at my normal retirement age they will deide that they are de minimus and pay out the value of the fund less the tax relief granted all those years ago.

As a result I decided to get off the merry go round at the age of 44, since then I have lived off my savings and not taken a penny from anyone but also have made no further contributon towards retirement funds in the hands of others be they the governments or financial institutions.

I have worked hard over the last 6 years and I hope that it will soon start to bear fruit and ultimately provide for me in my retirement years which are still a long way ahead of me.

So yes I am willing to give up my non gold plated retirement deals, I have already written them off in my mind.

[Rose]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]So who's under statutory retirement age and drawing down their pensions from their previous employers and are willing to give up their gold-plated early retirement deals (or any of the other descriptions used to describe what the French get) to help out their government which is also in dire straits or their pension schemes?[/quote]

I'm under retirement age. [:$]  sadly not in receipt of anything gold plated and will get my state pension when I'm 66 which is a good few years away too... at least 4 olympics [:)]

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Yes, definitely, Tony, plus a whole host of other trades, often paid for by the State in some form or other.[/quote]

I find it really bizarre that the discussion about the strike has generated so much heat among British people, a good number of whom are likely to be living in France because they got good deals and early retirement from a government or employers that clearly, according to UK television and newpapers, are in an equally difficult situation with all the talk of the black holes in UK pension systems, the need for bale-outs and pension schemes running huge defecits.

So who's under statutory retirement age and drawing down their pensions from their previous employers and are willing to give up their gold-plated early retirement deals (or any of the other descriptions used to describe what the French get) to help out their government which is also in dire straits or their pension schemes?

This is, of course, a rhetorical question .............

[/quote]

Black Holes????    Actuarily the UK State Pension Scheme enjoys a surplus greater than the percentage margin required under the guidelines statutorily established.  Unlike the Frogs daft scheme.[:)]

Each year there is a surplus of the order of £2 billion. The NIF had a surplus of over £34 billion as at 2005/06, £38 billion in 2006/7 and the Government Actuary's Department forecasts that this surplus will grow to over £114.7 billion by 2012.^[3]

The surplus is loaned to the government through the Debt Management Office which is part of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt in Call Notice Deposits (previously invested in gilt-edged securities) and interest on these invested monies is paid to the NIF - £1.3 billion in the 2007/08 year.

A black hole in your argument, methinks.[:D][:D][:D]

[woolybanana]

I was forced to retire from my last post in Belgium at rising 60 which gave me a small pension, and am just about 64 now. As my career was in no fixed place I always contributed to the UK State pension which I shall receive in 13 months (Inshallah!) and built up capital to provide an income as well.

[Chancer]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

and built up capital to provide an income as well.

[/quote]

That is so unfair! I should have some of that, if I knew where you lived I would round up some of Norman H's  young protegés and come round and burn some pallets outside your door [:P]

And he reckons that I am not integrated [:D]

[woolybanana]

Check out Normie, he is loaded!

[NormanH]

I think you mean shafted.

[:D]

[NormanH]

I think you mean shafted.

[:D]

[woolybanana]

See, he turns attention away from his property empire and Swiss accounts by mentioning sex -- again!

[Braco]

A black hole in your argument, methinks.

An internal IOU - great. If they had invested wisely say Confederate War Bonds we would have something pretty to hang on our walls.

[Jon02]

Thank you for your various inputs. As I read it the striking core was (and still is) special regime foncs, possibly with some private sector help for the sake of solidarity. So does anyone know of (either first or second hand) a taper process designed to slide the reforms in gently. If not does anyone know of any 54 year olds who have suddenly seen their horizon move back by 5 or 7 years. Sorry to bang on about this but as I said at the outset, I've seen nothing on the detail of the implementation.

[Chancer]

I am pretty sure that under the terms of this reform no-one is looking at working any more than two additional years. I would like this confirmed.

Of course despite all the hot air about France being a rich country, the money is there, its just a political choice, tax the banks, tax the rich, blah blah blah, I cant help but feel that the core group activists realise that the writing is on the wall for their special regimes, ironically it is they by their actions who are bringing attention to them.

I am pretty sure that the train drivers had already had their pension age raised from 50 to 55, I remember the President commenting that in this day and age it was unjust for a cheminot who does little more than push a joystick to retire at 50, perhaps they just kept schtuum at the time knowing they were unlikely to get any sympathy and waited for general protests against the reform by Eric Woerth.

[Judith]

Gluestick

A good general explanation of the historical reasons behind some of the thinking regarding pensions, as far as I can tell, and much forgotten it seems.  Thank you.

Much can be done to "ease" into the problem of change, as with the changes to women's retirement ages at the moment.  Informed well in advance, implemented gradually, and thus it works better than instant change.

[Judith]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

So who's under statutory retirement age and drawing down their pensions from their previous employers and are willing to give up their gold-plated early retirement deals (or any of the other descriptions used to describe what the French get) to help out their government which is also in dire straits or their pension schemes?

This is, of course, a rhetorical question .............

[/quote]

Well we are not in receipt of any gold plated pension pots, just what we have by right and working long and hard (seeing annuity rates drop over the years....before we could claim them)

And no, we are not early retired here, though I came a year earlier than planned because I had been made redundant and it seemed rather pointless indeed stupid to continue to try to find work when I was patently not wanted.  My pensions arrived a year later as planned, with hubby's already in place some years before.

I had several times tried to find work here in France, before the decision was taken to wait until retirement.  If that makes us favoured, I'm sorry, I think we were just being practical and sensible.

[woolybanana]

Tony was really having a go at a different group, Judith; those who have acquired pensions paid by the taxpayer which are disproportionate either in size or conditions, such as age of retirement, cash handouts etc. For example, in UK HE at one time they were giving enhanced retirement to anyone over 50, with large cash sums attached. Many of those people went back to work immediately, often in their old job as part-timers or as consultants.

In Hong Kong there used to be a body (ICAC, I think it was) which fought corruption in the public domain. One of their duties was to check that anomolies did not creep into employment and other contracts. It seems to me that many of the more glaring cases constitute corruption and should be struck down or taxed at 100%. particularly true in upper management in the NHS and BBC, as well as the gold plated pensions and allowances paid to MPs. Often these conditions were negotiated in secret, which is a sure sign of corruption, in my book.