Logs for fire - have we been ripped off?...

[krusty]

Hi Keni thanks for the reply , we are in Lysos just now and move to secret valley in Jan. 20` in the day and down to 10` at nights sure is better than where I was.

[pachapapa]

Not a joke Q.....a serious question to compare prices in UK and France.

Curious at Janet's assertion of the respective prices of firewood, as it would appear that one country uses volume and the other country uses weight.

Of course I do appreciate that if I construct a 1 metre cubic container to receive my stère from the local woodcutter, fill it full of water, empty the water progressively into 5 litre cubis, I will be able to establish the actual wood volume in the stère, finally a simple relative density multiple and PRESTO the weight of the stère.

Eureka I hear you proclaim....how stupid of me, of course I should have weighed each piece of wood on the bathroom scales and then done a bean counting summation.[I]

[Owens88]

1 cu metre in britain varies between £60-150

Now that was accurate but no help at all. Yet, I am not an accountant.

John

[5-element]

Here (not a million of miles away from Judith, who pays the same) we pay 60 euros per stère too, cut to 50cm, but it is for holm-oak (chêne vert) ) which is very dense,  twice as heavy as white oak. (For the sheer weight, I would much rather carry a wheel-barrowload of white oak than of holm oak!) .After much experimenting, we found that holm-oak is the wood which gives the most heat (chestnut, white oak, etc... are nowhere as efficient). If we buy it freshly cut, it has to be kept outside to be seasoned for a couple of years - to maximise efficiency.

As for finding the right wood delivery man, we had to kiss a lot of frogs before we found our prince. We "went through" a whole array of rip-off merchants who tried to deliver all kinds of inappropriate wood - or who delivered short loads, or wood cut the wrong length, or had to be cajoled with multiple phone calls for weeks or months.

Getting the right wood is crucial to us, as our insert is our only means of heating for the whole house. 

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Not a joke Q.....a serious question to compare prices in UK and France.

Curious at Janet's assertion of the respective prices of firewood, as it would appear that one country uses volume and the other country uses weight.

Of course I do appreciate that if I construct a 1 metre cubic container to receive my stère from the local woodcutter, fill it full of water, empty the water progressively into 5 litre cubis, I will be able to establish the actual wood volume in the stère, finally a simple relative density multiple and PRESTO the weight of the stère.

Eureka I hear you proclaim....how stupid of me, of course I should have weighed each piece of wood on the bathroom scales and then done a bean counting summation.[I]

[/quote]

You can't realistically sell wood by weight because it changes as anyone who burns wood can tell you. Somebody who has years and years (not me I add) of experience can, under certain conditions even tell roughly when it was cut. So basically you can't tell by weight because different woods weight different amounts due to their density, it changes in time and depends where it was stored. There could be quite a big difference between one 1.5 tonne load and another when it comes to volume. True some woods can shrink as they dry out but the shrinkage is no where near as dramatic as the weight change. This is why I thought you were joking, I never thought that man of your alleged intelligence and qualifications could have been serious.

[Quillan]

[quote user="krusty"]Not a joke Q , a genuine question out of interest.[/quote]

Then I apologise Krusty. It is a difficult question to answer because it depends on the type of fire you have, if you are trying to heat a whole house etc. Fires in France should come with a Rendement figure in percentage, that's the efficiency rating rather like the 'A', 'B' etc you have with electrical appliances and other stuff. Anything over 70% (80% is achievable but very rare, 75% is reasonably normal) is pretty good. Inserts do not tend to have such a higher rating as 'free standing' fires but they burn slower giving off a more constant heat and can of course supply secondary heating to other rooms of the house via pipes etc. So if you know what type of fire you are looking at and how long it would be 'on'  for perhaps somebody may have similar and be able to give you an idea. The other factor is of course how much moisture there is in the wood, this makes it take longer to burn but not as hot, 20% or less is a good figure. I understand that some people actually use a moisture meter to tell them when the wood is dry enough but most of us can judge very roughly just by weight (and by sound when its burning, it hiss's).

We have a massive insert which takes 80cm logs, at 'full tilt' it produces around 28kw of heat but we don't have it on in the day, just from 15:00 onwards and I can burn one cubic metre per week. Thats probably because I can put five or six logs in at 22:00 and it will still be going when I get up, the house is nice and warm so I can let it go out and clean it ready for the afternoon/evening.

Hope that helps to get you started.

[idun]

We have bought wood in England recently, however as it is kiln dried hard wood, mainly oak it was just over a £100 a cubic meter. Cut into the size we need, can't remember what that is exactly and delivered.

Our new fires really do need very dry wood, I know and perfectly understand that all fires work best with really dry wood, but these are special fires and to maximise the heat we get we have to have the very very dry. Have a look Handol 26T and 52T. Incredible fires they are and I don't mind paying the extra for the wood as the heat is retained and goes on heating for hours after the fire is out so the fires are not on for as long.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="idun"]We have bought wood in England recently, however as it is kiln dried hard wood, mainly oak it was just over a £100 a cubic meter. Cut into the size we need, can't remember what that is exactly and delivered. Our new fires really do need very dry wood, I know and perfectly understand that all fires work best with really dry wood, but these are special fires and to maximise the heat we get we have to have the very very dry. Have a look Handol 26T and 52T. Incredible fires they are and I don't mind paying the extra for the wood as the heat is retained and goes on heating for hours after the fire is out so the fires are not on for as long.[/quote]

Whilst pellets and similar bits of wood can be energy efficiently dried; the same is not true for an open fire or a log burner. The most energy efficient way of drying wood is placing for a period of two years in naturally well ventilated piles; from a reliable log supplier this can be reduced to a year to complete the drying of the wood.

A conventional log burner  will function well without producing excessive tar using wood with a moisture content less than 18% and drying a log to less than 10% is really pointless as the energy/humidity curve is effectively asymptotic on that portion of the curve. See diagram below:

[IMG]http://www.domosystem.fr/humidite/dossiers/bois-energie/images/rendement-energetique.gif[/IMG]

The fact that you are paying approximately twice the price of normal dry wood for a close packed cubic metre with an expensive capital outlay for the burning unit suggests that your "tree hugger" efficiency factor is fallacious.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="pachapapa"]

Not a joke Q.....a serious question to compare prices in UK and France.

Curious at Janet's assertion of the respective prices of firewood, as it would appear that one country uses volume and the other country uses weight.

Of course I do appreciate that if I construct a 1 metre cubic container to receive my stère from the local woodcutter, fill it full of water, empty the water progressively into 5 litre cubis, I will be able to establish the actual wood volume in the stère, finally a simple relative density multiple and PRESTO the weight of the stère.

Eureka I hear you proclaim....how stupid of me, of course I should have weighed each piece of wood on the bathroom scales and then done a bean counting summation.[I]

[/quote]

You can't realistically sell wood by weight because it changes as anyone who burns wood can tell you. Somebody who has years and years (not me I add) of experience can, under certain conditions even tell roughly when it was cut. So basically you can't tell by weight because different woods weight different amounts due to their density, it changes in time and depends where it was stored. There could be quite a big difference between one 1.5 tonne load and another when it comes to volume. True some woods can shrink as they dry out but the shrinkage is no where near as dramatic as the weight change. This is why I thought you were joking, I never thought that man of your alleged intelligence and qualifications could have been serious.

[/quote]

The only time I have seriously got involved with firewood was when I needed firewood for the needs of a population of 2,000 people. The choice was made to burn Quebracho Colorado, the density of the wood at 1.22 made it about 70% heavier than Oak making the transportation more economical.  The tree trunks were purchased in lots of about 600 metric tonnes from the forests of the Chaco, transported to the local rail head on multiple trailers, placed on rail waggons and moved some 800 kilometres to the delivery rail head for onward transport by single artics to the mine. A normal yearly consumption was about 2000 metric tonnes with the trunks being cut in the company's saw mill for delivery to the workers houses. The cumulative delivered weight was recorded for each consumer with weighing on delivery. The firewood was free to company employees being used for cooking and heating.

The wood is red in colour, rich in tannin, the name was given by the Spanish Conquistadores due to it breaking axes....quebrar-hacha.

[Quillan]

Your talking about a very big difference in location and needs not to mention who's paying and the type of wood your burning.

[Clair]

[quote user="janetilett"]Hi there

We have een buying logs for our open fire from our french neighbour, but

I m beginning to think they are expensive... We pay 60 euros for one

meter cubed... Is this the normal price for logs in France? It seems so

expensive compared to the price in UK... (however, most things have

increased in price in France compared to the UK).

Janet[/quote]

Don't try to compare the price of wood in France to the prices in the UK. It's a pointless exercise as you are very unlikely to have the opportunity to bring any over the ferry if you find it is cheaper over there...

We recently paid 50€/m³

cut in 50 cm length for a delivery of 20 stères (= 20 m³)

of seasoned oak from the local wood yard.

Our previous purchase was in 2008 from a farmer and we paid 45€ for seasoned oak and 35€ for beech, both in 1 m length, delivered.

Gamm Vert in our

village sells 1 stère (= 1 m³) of oak in 1m length for

55€, or a pallet of 2 stères (= 2 m³) in 50 cm length

for 150€ (i.e. 75€/m³). Delivery is free for orders

over 8 m³. A lorryload (24-28 stères) will get you a discount of 2 €/m³.

The price you paid may not be excessive, but it certainly does not seem to be neighbourly... If I had a neighbour like yours, I'd shop around.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Quillan"]Your talking about a very big difference in location and needs not to mention who's paying and the type of wood your burning.[/quote]

The point of the post was to illustrate that buying by weight rather than by volume is common, rather than to emphasise the impracticality of transfer pricing with bulky commodities over long distances.[;-)]

The only way to get cheap wood is to buy a close coppice.

[Quillan]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

[quote user="Quillan"]Your talking about a very big difference in location and needs not to mention who's paying and the type of wood your burning.[/quote]

The point of the post was to illustrate that buying by weight rather than by volume is common, rather than to emphasise the impracticality of transfer pricing with bulky commodities over long distances.[;-)]

The only way to get cheap wood is to buy a close coppice.

[/quote]

Your waffling, in France and that's where we are talking about (and not some far flung part of South America or were ever) it's sold in stères (cubic metres) and not in weight so no it's not common. Of course if you want to go on some form of crusade to convert the French to selling wood by weight because you feel it's a superior way to sell it then carry on but don't hold your breath.

[Chancer]

I thought several posts back Quillan that you had missed the point, the OP was saying the price seemed expensive compared to England, they were asked what it was in England but didnt reply.

PPP suggested that as it was sold by weight in England and volume in France making a comparison very difficult, now I dont have a wood burner and dont know what units it is sold by in the UK. 

You said that we are (were) talking about France not South America or wherever, but the discussion after the first posting was surely about the relative prices of France and England was it not?

[Salty Sam]

£60.00 per 1m3 is the going rate in my part of England.

Now would somebody care to explain what a "close coppice" is?

[Will]

[quote user="Chancer"]

...the OP was saying the price seemed expensive compared to England, they were asked what it was in England but didnt reply.

[/quote]

At the risk of being flamed too, I did a very quick google which suggested that logs in England are sold by volume rather than weight, bagged for easy handling, and 80cm seasoned hardwood logs can cost about £250 for 1.68m3 including VAT and delivery. (www.logs2u.co.uk)

I'm sure people can find cheaper local suppliers if they wish, and may even find those who supply by weight, but the OP's 'rip off' French price seems pretty reasonable compared with a typical English source?

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

I thought several posts back Quillan that you had missed the point, the OP was saying the price seemed expensive compared to England, they were asked what it was in England but didnt reply.

PPP suggested that as it was sold by weight in England and volume in France making a comparison very difficult, now I dont have a wood burner and dont know what units it is sold by in the UK. 

You said that we are (were) talking about France not South America or wherever, but the discussion after the first posting was surely about the relative prices of France and England was it not?

[/quote]

I was pointing out that the his comment "The only time I have seriously got involved with firewood was when I needed firewood for the needs of a population of 2,000 people. The choice was made to burn Quebracho Colorado, the density of the wood at 1.22 made it about 70% heavier than Oak making the transportation more economical.  The tree trunks were purchased in lots of about 600 metric tonnes from the forests of the Chaco, transported to the local rail head on multiple trailers, placed on rail waggons and moved some 800 kilometres to the delivery rail head for onward transport by single artics to the mine. A normal yearly consumption was about 2000 metric tonnes with the trunks being cut in the company's saw mill for delivery to the workers houses. The cumulative delivered weight was recorded for each consumer with weighing on delivery. The firewood was free to company employees being used for cooking and heating." is totally irrelevant because we are in France.

The Chaco forest is in South America, the wood as he points out is different, has a different density etc. Also he asked how much a stére weighs to which you replied and I pointed out that you can't do it that way and stated the reason why. He then went on about the above. To be honest I don't think he actually knows a lot as many of his posts that litter the forum show, he simply goes away and reads about something then posts it here just to make himself look knowledgeable and I am not the only one who thinks that. [:D]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Salty Sam"]Now would somebody care to explain what a "close coppice" is?[/quote]

One that is handily nearby?

[:D]

[Gluestick]

In P d C I buy aged wood in handy lengths from my good friend, who with his wife owns bundles of farming "prarie" locally: all rented out for grazing. although he retains the right to all wood cut.

He has so much and a barn full of the stuff and even a couple of years back built a special woodhouse: steel framed and covered in heavy translucent plastic with good cross-ventilation. Excellent for drying and aging.

Last paid € 45 delivered per stere and he helped me unload and stack.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Salty Sam"]£60.00 per 1m3 is the going rate in my part of England. Now would somebody care to explain what a "close coppice" is?[/quote]

One of these[IMG]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:adMpTu_qF0S5MM:http://www.yourlocalweb.co.uk/images/pictures/07/61/chestnut-coppice-abbey-wood-74487.jpg[/IMG]not far away.[6][:P]

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Gluestick"]In P d C I buy aged wood in handy lengths from my good friend, who with his wife owns bundles of farming "prarie" locally: all rented out for grazing. although he retains the right to all wood cut.

He has so much and a barn full of the stuff and even a couple of years back built a special woodhouse: steel framed and covered in heavy translucent plastic with good cross-ventilation. Excellent for drying and aging.

Last paid € 45 delivered per stere and he helped me unload and stack.




[/quote]

A fair price in my part of the woods with possibly €5 per stère reduction for a corde and regular customer.By the way a M3 with lengths cut to 1 metre will contain more wood than when cut into 50 cm lengths.Also thicker wood will contain more wood than thinner wood.

I have the good fortune to live next to a roman bridge with narrow arches where drifting trees get caught during flooding; the commune workers remove these periodically and cut them up short enough to go in the bucket of their JCB and then drop it in the orchard. At the moment I have about a 5 year supply in store undercover in an outhouse, so drying is not a problem. The wood is of course free.

[basquesteve]

You can try the DIY route 17.5 tonnes @850 euros = 35 stère delivered

 

http://[IMG]http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/basquesteve/P6230901.jpg[/IMG]

http://[IMG]http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/basquesteve/P6230909Custom.jpg[/IMG]

[idun]

PPP I know all about wood for fires. We heated exclusively in France for over 15 years with wood and frankly I have seen it all, the good, bad and ugly sides to it.

I lived in the Alps and wood was expensive, when we stopped using our fire in the mid 90's we were paying around 900ff a tonne for 2m lengths and this was not always dry. If we had spare cash we would buy 15 tonnes and cut it and let it dry and it was usually pretty good. We averaged around 7.5 tonnes per winter and that was not including hot water for our house, just heating.

We have tried so called 'dry' wood on our new fires here in England and they do not like it at all. HOWEVER the kiln dried is working, it is working amazingly, nay incredibly well and I am very happy with it in spite of the price.

One thing is for sure, dry 'good' hard wood burns well and throws out a lot of heat and can be controlled to burn slowly, damp does not do anything of much consequence.

[Gluestick]

Whilst there are many suppliers of wood for fires around us (As there are numerous forests and much farmland with good tree cover) many people find their best bet is to buy wood by the truck load from the Ardennes.

[Stan Streason]

We were asking this question only this week and wondering if next time we go over in a transit - we should fill it with logs for the return journey.

I paid about €48 a stere last year (for 10 stere cut to 50cm).  As we are only in the place infrequently in winter the log burner is probably lit on about 20 occasions at most.  I have about 10 years worth stacked up in the barn.

In UK it costs me £75 for a level flatbed truck's worth split and cut to about 9 inches (I have asked for longer but its from the pile they cut 2 years ago so I would have to order and pay 2 years in advance for a "special".).

I have no idea which is cheaper.