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Burka ban passed


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[quote user="Braco"]That is why we choose France - a sad day for liberty and enlightenment.[/quote]

Surely such liberty and enlightenment applies to all not just the ones who 'fit in' to your views on things

[quote user="Braco"]

Hi Swissie

My post was in response to comments comparing standards in some Muslim

countries.

I for one aspire to live in countries with far higher standards and

freedoms.

This latest law I see as a very retrograde step that was enacted purely

to pander to the uneducated, insecure and bigoted - aka racists.[/quote]

"higher standards and freedoms"  - surely those admirable goals apply to all, not just in your 'blinkered' view of the world. Its called freedom of expression.

"to the uneducated, insecure and bigoted - aka racists"   - sorry sunshine, but, in my book, your comments place you, sadly, very firmly in that camp.

Whether you like it or not, of course, matters not one iota, as it clearly seems to have the support of the vast majority of french citizens.

.

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The burka is itself a statement of discrimination and rejection and not overtly recial. Its wearing is being encouraged and enforced by a small minority of extremists within the French Muslim community who use fear and violence as their weapons.

I suspect (though i do not KNOW) that these elements are much more firmly entrenched in the UK Muslim population because of the weakness and failure of multi-communitarism. The sloppy left have a lot to answer for.

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 If its a symbol of oppression  (husband forcing wife to wear it) then it should be banned IMHO, but some reports indicate that sometimes its the choice of the women themselves who are often 'converts'

 What's next -  are those employed by the French state allowed to wear a crucifix as jewellery ?

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The support of the vast majority of citizens is a poor argument as to the validity of a position in most cases.

 

I am sure that the gassing of Jews had wide spread support in parts of Europe during the war. He Ho the majority supported it so it must be right.

 

Freedom of expression includes the right to wear whatever fashion garment you choose. My support is for the right of the individual to choose not for the garment.

 

And to the people who will argue that all wearers are forced I will say that the same people that groomed us for Iraq and Afghanistan are already working on episode three.

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Just to clarify for all the non-French speakers, and people who get their information about France from the BBC/DT/DM.

NO WHERE IN THE PREPOSED LAW DOES IT STATE THAT BURQAS ARE BANNED.

Yes, the proposed law would ban, in public, balaclavas, it would also ban pulling up a scarf over your face, it would ban wearing a full face crash helmet, other than on a bike (motorcycle couriers take note, no popping into offices). it would ban bridal veils, burquas, ski masks, and any form of article that covers the face.

The Constitutional Council, the highest legal authority in the country, pointed out banning the burqa specifically, would be against the French Constitution. In it's research notes the CC stated that 1200 woman wore the full burqa in France, out of a muslim population of 8million. Of that 1200 the majority (ie more than 600) were ethnic French women (catholics) who had converted to Islam. The majority of women were BAC+3 educated, and worked in professional/managerial jobs. Blue-eyed, blonde haired, European, highly educated, independently wealthy women.

I can only apologise that the CC research did not find the stereotype referred to by a number of posters.

Note, this proposed law still has to go to the upper house, the Senate, and may still be struck down by the CC. The CC has already intimaded it will be struck down as anti-Constitutional, and that's even before the European Court on Human Rights gets to consider it.

 

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The burka is a UNIFORM (that of extremist Islam), not a fashion statement, and as such is on a par with those worn by the blackshirts and the Klu Klux Klan. As such it is illegal, I suspect, even under European law.

The converts who insist on wearing it are merely showing off and should be ashamed of themselves.

However, the real problem is one of being able to identify the wearers of the dam* things which is not unreasonable in a public place. There have already been robberies committed by burka wearers!

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[quote user="Russethouse"]
 If its a symbol of oppression  (husband forcing wife to wear it) then it should be banned IMHO, but some reports indicate that sometimes its the choice of the women themselves who are often 'converts'
 What's next -  are those employed by the French state allowed to wear a crucifix as jewellery ?


[/quote]

Is the forcing of ones wife to wear black stockings and suspenders against her will also a form of oppression???? [8-)]
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And the relevance is? More robberies have been committed by people wearing blue jeans. In which case using your logic, it would make a thousand times more sense to ban them. No? (Say, there was 1500 bank robberies in France last year, maybe 1 was wearing a burqa, say 1000 wearing blue jeans)

In 12 months time it will be illegal to wear a bridal veil outside a Mairie. That's how stupid this has become.

I have never seen a burqa in France, I live in a prodominately muslim area, and travel through Paris everyday.

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[quote user="ebaynut"]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

 If its a symbol of oppression  (husband forcing wife to wear it) then it should be banned IMHO, but some reports indicate that sometimes its the choice of the women themselves who are often 'converts'

 What's next -  are those employed by the French state allowed to wear a crucifix as jewellery ?

[/quote]

Is the forcing of ones wife to wear black stockings and suspenders against her will also a form of oppression???? [8-)]
[/quote]

 It's the sign of a bully !

 Wooly, if Burqa's are a uniform where does that leave monks and nuns or say the Pope ?

Velcorin, this law has all the hallmarks of one law for group A and another for group B.....either there is a lot not being published about it or its not very well framed IMHO

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[quote user="Quillan"]

The thing is that this is a political decision by the president and ruling party of France to 'panda' to the ultra right voters and hopefully get a few of them to vote their way in future elections.

The truth of the matter is that we in the west don't like people covering their faces. It immediately brings negative thoughts to our mind like if their face is covered then the must be some form of criminal. If it were my choice I would ban all forms of facial coverings and make it an offence and have the same penalty for all, this would include, people at demonstrations/riots, armed forces in public (like the French equivalent to the SAS - you see them at the Spanish frontier sometimes), crash helmets when not on a bike, burka's, balaclavas (like what your mum made you when you were at junior school along with the knitted gloves with elastic joining them together so you didn't loose one and you looked a right DH) etc, basically one rule and one law for all. People with covered faces scare me and I think that's the same with most Europeans regardless of the reason they cover their face, I would even go as far as banning full beards (they can be shaved off to change appearance).

The argument about Burka's and religion is also not correct, there is nothing directly in the Koran about it, it is the extremists interpretation of the Koran that says women need to wear one and then I believe only married woman. It's the same with women's rights, nowhere does it say that a woman is a second class citizen, in fact it says they should be treated equally to men just as it says they should be educated just like men, again its interpretation. Us Christians are just as bad as this with various sect's, think JW's and not have blood transfusions etc. What the cloths and the Burka really are is national costume for people living in that part of the world, its protection from heat and wind blown sand etc, if you try wearing the same sort of cloths out there you will feel the benefit almost immediately in comparison to European cloths. Between us and the Muslims we really are making a right 'cods' of the whole thing when it really should be quite simple. Typical politicians, why make it simple when you can make it difficult and throw a load of tax payers money at it.

[/quote]

 

I am very worried when a self admitted  Free Mason with a hidden agenda uses words such as "Us Christians".

I would prefer transparency when discussing religious topics and expect people that subscribe to secretive non-christian cults to admit their membership of such organisations.

I am not a practising Christian and find Muslims whether veiled or not to be decent ordinary people something I have not found amongst Freemasons.

Perhaps this poster would give us some background on how his chosen cult is seen by Muslims?

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[quote user="Dog"][quote user="Quillan"]

[/quote]

 

I am very worried when a self admitted  Free Mason with a hidden agenda uses words such as "Us Christians".

I would prefer transparency when discussing religious topics and expect people that subscribe to secretive non-christian cults to admit their membership of such organisations.

I am not a practising Christian and find Muslims whether veiled or not to be decent ordinary people something I have not found amongst Freemasons.

Perhaps this poster would give us some background on how his chosen cult is seen by Muslims?

[/quote]

Still barking up the same tree Dog?

I think your hatred for all things related to Freemasonry has somewhat affected your objectivity as witnessed by the paradox in your first two paragraphs.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]
Please keep on the topic, which is Burka's.
[/quote] Seems as its getting more approval everywhere, good luck to this MP as well. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7895995/Conservative-MP-Philip-Hollobone-refuse-to-meet-with-constituents-wearing-a-veil.htmlP as well.
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It was interesting to see on ITV during the week both sides put their argument. A vote was taken before and after, I believe the figure was around 85% in favour of a ban on Burka's within the UK. I just think its rather funny because if the UK did go ahead with a ban then it would be the only EU country to directly ban the Burka. What the UK media and many individuals seem to be missing is that the only ban that may (it still has to be ratified) come in France is the ban on covering ones head in public as so many of us have tried to point out. The fact that under that law Burka's will be included is in a way incidental. This is about politics and one party trying to steal another parties voters in France plus making it legal to arrest demonstrators who cover their faces and nothing more.
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[quote user="Marym2"][quote user="Russethouse"]

Please keep on the topic, which is Burka's.

[/quote] Seems as its getting more approval everywhere, good luck to this MP as well. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7895995/Conservative-MP-Philip-Hollobone-refuse-to-meet-with-constituents-wearing-a-veil.htmlP as well.[/quote]

Thats fine, as long as he made it clear before the election that he was going to pick and choose who he represents - after all it well could be that a woman wearing a burka needs his help and support, especially if she one of those forced into it.

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[quote user="Quillan"]It was interesting to see on ITV during the week both sides put their argument. A vote was taken before and after, I believe the figure was around 85% in favour of a ban on Burka's within the UK. I just think its rather funny because if the UK did go ahead with a ban then it would be the only EU country to directly ban the Burka. What the UK media and many individuals seem to be missing is that the only ban that may (it still has to be ratified) come in France is the ban on covering ones head in public as so many of us have tried to point out. The fact that under that law Burka's will be included is in a way incidental. This is about politics and one party trying to steal another parties voters in France plus making it legal to arrest demonstrators who cover their faces and nothing more.[/quote]

Sounds great to me - democracy at last - after stopping a few women who for religious reasons prefer to cover themselves we can move onto stopping the greater and real evil threats to society.

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Only just this morning BBC radio Newcastle had a bit on the new burka saga. A Muslim woman was interviewed and said that it was her own choice to wear the burka as it places her closer to God (sorry i was not in the studio to ask additional questions....). needless to say that the woman was talking in Farsi language and her husband was doing the translation. So as they only wear their burka outside their house, does this mean they don't care about God once inside?

Sorry for being blunt BUT, if we allow Muslim people to carry on wearing their burqua, next they will request that parks and play areas be opened to women only on a Wednesday afternoon, then will come additional requests and before you know it, it will be badly looked upon to be a Christian.

Tunisia is a moderate Muslim country and they have banned the wearing of burka in public. tell me why?
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[quote user="ericd"] Tunisia is a moderate Muslim country and they have banned the wearing of burka in public. tell me why?[/quote]

Coz it's Tunisia?

I doubt the UK would accept ALL Tunisian laws, so picking odd ones to incorporate is not really valid.

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