Burka ban passed

[just john]

And it's spreading . . .

[Etoile]

Some times we have to reject things that are incompatible with our hard fought for way of life. 'Tolerance' is a word that seems to be on everyone's lips these days, and if you do not want to tolerate all and everything you are then a bigot.

[Russethouse]

 My bet is that it will go to the court of Human Rights and be quashed.....

[Théière]

[quote user="Etoile"]Some times we have to reject things that are incompatible with our hard fought for way of life. 'Tolerance' is a word that seems to be on everyone's lips these days, and if you do not want to tolerate all and everything you are then a bigot.[/quote]

It amazes me how tolerant some countries are of our western ways when we travel to their countries

[Etoile]

That's because the truth is that Western ways appeal to a lot of people, as they reflect a higher material quality of living and a freedom of expression. If you look at the leaders and the wealthy element of virtually any country on earth it will be the Western trappings in which they indulge. We also bring business and money to these countries and they want that.

[partout]

"   It amazes me how tolerant some countries are of our western ways when we travel to their countries"

Which countries would you be referring to please

[Théière]

[quote user="partout"]

"   It amazes me how tolerant some countries are of our western ways when we travel to their countries"

Which countries would you be referring to please
[/quote]

Countries with very dual standards.

Where public displays of friendship are against the law, showing the shoulders or any other part of the anatomy is going to get you in trouble, where consuming any alcohol could get you into serious trouble. When they visit us however they make for the Spearmint Rhino club and indulge in all the behaviour so frowned upon in their own countries, So deep are their beliefs

[Bugsy]

France are to be applauded on this, especially when you compare it to the UK which has, in my opinion, gone completely mad in this appeasement to minority groups.

Don't you just love this latest example, you couldn't make it up.

When my daughter travels to Riyadh (which she does regularly) she has to dress accordingly so why not the same rules for people in the west. BTW, The Religious Police don't fine people there for dress violation, they hit them with sticks.

People seem to have forgotten the fact that the whole of western society is based on face to face, eye to eye contact. Anyone covering their face brings about a natural suspicion. Youngsters wearing hoodies, motorcycle helmets having to be removed when filling up with fuel in the UK, being just two examples.

.

[Quillan]

The thing is that this is a political decision by the president and ruling party of France to 'panda' to the ultra right voters and hopefully get a few of them to vote their way in future elections.

The truth of the matter is that we in the west don't like people covering their faces. It immediately brings negative thoughts to our mind like if their face is covered then the must be some form of criminal. If it were my choice I would ban all forms of facial coverings and make it an offence and have the same penalty for all, this would include, people at demonstrations/riots, armed forces in public (like the French equivalent to the SAS - you see them at the Spanish frontier sometimes), crash helmets when not on a bike, burka's, balaclavas (like what your mum made you when you were at junior school along with the knitted gloves with elastic joining them together so you didn't loose one and you looked a right DH) etc, basically one rule and one law for all. People with covered faces scare me and I think that's the same with most Europeans regardless of the reason they cover their face, I would even go as far as banning full beards (they can be shaved off to change appearance).

The argument about Burka's and religion is also not correct, there is nothing directly in the Koran about it, it is the extremists interpretation of the Koran that says women need to wear one and then I believe only married woman. It's the same with women's rights, nowhere does it say that a woman is a second class citizen, in fact it says they should be treated equally to men just as it says they should be educated just like men, again its interpretation. Us Christians are just as bad as this with various sect's, think JW's and not have blood transfusions etc. What the cloths and the Burka really are is national costume for people living in that part of the world, its protection from heat and wind blown sand etc, if you try wearing the same sort of cloths out there you will feel the benefit almost immediately in comparison to European cloths. Between us and the Muslims we really are making a right 'cods' of the whole thing when it really should be quite simple. Typical politicians, why make it simple when you can make it difficult and throw a load of tax payers money at it.

[Judith]

Q

I could not agree more.

[PeterG]

[quote user="Bugsy"]France are to be applauded on this, especially when you compare it to the UK which has, in my opinion, gone completely mad in this appeasement to minority groups.[/quote]

 

Here, here.........total agreement

[Russethouse]

 Isn't this a sledgehammer to crack a nut, with a population of what, 60million plus, there are only 2000 women only doing this.

[Swissie]

Definitely NOT a fan of the Burka, as said before - and I agree with RH. For me (yes said it before) the main question is ' will it improve or inflame matters'? I sincerely hope I am WRONG that it might make things much worse. Only time will tell.

[Quillan]

Since my last post I have spent some time reading the French newspapers and am rather dismayed at how this is all being portrayed my some French papers and more so by the whole of the UK press and TV where I suspect most of you (and me to a degree) are getting our information from.

There are three myths here that need to be corrected.

Firstly there is no direct ban on wearing a Burka in public. The proposed law (which needs final approval in September) is to ban the covering of your face, be you male, female, Muslim or any other religion/nationality. If you cover your face in public then you will get a 150 Euro on the spot fine and/or your citizenship removed if an immigrant. There will be 6 months of 'education' available between the law being finalised and it coming in to use. So naturally that will include women wearing the Burka. Now it appears, depending on which (French) paper you read, that there is around 2,500 women wearing Burka's in France. Personally I would love to know where they get this figure from but from personal experience I have not seen that many. I suspect the real total may be around or below 10,000 which is about 0.6 of the population.

The second law again is not directly aimed at the Burka, what it says is that a person who forces a family member, wife, child, brother (yes brother), sister to wear particular clothing or artifacts on religious grounds can be liable to a prison term of 1 year plus up to 30,000 Euros fine. Obviously this would effect Muslim women but could just as well impact on some religious groups such as some sect's of Jews to name but one as I don't know if they have Amish and alike in France.

The other thing that was mentioned on English TV today is that France already has a ban on Muslim girls wearing head scarfs in schools. They failed to mention that as a secular state France has actually banned any child from wearing religious clothing and symbols whatever their religion in state schools.

Now just like the English press the French press have political leanings so some talk about this in the correct way and others just talk about just Muslims. If you put this in to perspective i.e. the number of women actually wearing a Burka in France it's really a very, very small minority so in my view if it were just a ban on Burka's I would oppose it, being that it isn't, its a ban on face covering I agree. I also agree that men forcing women to wear certain cloths or to behave in a particular way is wrong, women should have freedom of choice. This is where Sarkozy is actually right providing he means what he says. [;-)]

The final myth that need exposing is the reported almost unanimous vote in favour of these laws. There were in fact 335 votes for and 1 vote against, this is because half the assembly walked out. Its a bit like all the Tories voting to pass a law when Labour and everyone else walked out leaving just one person to vote no, unanimous it certainly was not.

[Russethouse]

 So if you going ski ing in the French Alps or wear a balaclava in cold weather you could be fined ?

My concern would be that despite what is being said Muslims will perceive it as being aimed at them and even moderate Muslims may see it as the thin edge of the wedge.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]
 So if you going ski ing in the French Alps or wear a balaclava in cold weather you could be fined ?

My concern would be that despite what is being said Muslims will perceive it as being aimed at them and even moderate Muslims may see it as the thin edge of the wedge.
[/quote]

In theory yes but the police are allowed to use their discretion and then there is the issue of if the ski slope is public or private.

[Etoile]

My mother knitted me a balaclava when I was at school. I really struggled with it until I was told that I had it on the wrong way around.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

 So if you going ski ing in the French Alps or wear a balaclava in cold weather you could be fined ?

My concern would be that despite what is being said Muslims will perceive it as being aimed at them and even moderate Muslims may see it as the thin edge of the wedge.

[/quote]

In theory yes but the police are allowed to use their discretion and then there is the issue of if the ski slope is public or private.

[/quote]

 Yep, thats right, discretion for people not wearing a burka - talk about meeting trouble halfway....

[Quillan]

[quote user="Etoile"]My mother knitted me a balaclava when I was at school. I really struggled with it until I was told that I had it on the wrong way around.[/quote]

Did she knit you gloves as well with the elastic joining them together so you wouldn't loose one?

[velcorin]

Quillan, I've said it before and I'll say it again.

This is being sold as being to ban the Burqa. It's not. It's to stop street demonstrators hiding their identities from the police and cameras. Remember Sarko was Interior Minister when the ados ran rings around the police during the riots. He has a long memory.

It goes to the Senate in Sept, then 6 months before it is adopted into the Code Civile.

[Russethouse]

What do riot police wear in France ?

[Braco]

That is why we choose France - a sad day for liberty and enlightenment.

[Swissie]

Sorry for being a bit dim Braco - but I do not understand your post.  Thanks if you choose to enlighten me.

[Braco]

[quote user="Swissie"]Sorry for being a bit dim Braco - but I do not understand your post.  Thanks if you choose to enlighten me.

[/quote]

Hi Swissie

My post was in response to comments comparing standards in some Muslim countries.

I for one aspire to live in countries with far higher standards and freedoms.

This latest law I see as a very retrograde step that was enacted purely to pander to the uneducated, insecure and bigoted - aka racists.

[ebaynut]

[quote user="Braco"][quote user="Swissie"]Sorry for being a bit dim Braco - but I do not understand your post.  Thanks if you choose to enlighten me.
[/quote] Hi Swissie My post was in response to comments comparing standards in some Muslim countries. I for one aspire to live in countries with far higher standards and freedoms. This latest law I see as a very retrograde step that was enacted purely to pander to the uneducated, insecure and bigoted - aka racists.[/quote]

How lucky those uneducated bigoted French peasants are to have some one as educated as you moving to their country to show them just how ignorant they really are.