Libya

[Joe]

Its kicked off then.French planes are over Libya and have fired at an armoured vehicle.

Lets hope that Gaddafi is taken out this time around.

[woolybanana]

Yap, but he is a crafty basta**, so it may take some time.

[5-element]

He's got plenty of bunkers, and I am sure he doesn't waste any time getting somewhere where he is safe...

[woolybanana]

It is the gas that worried me.

[idun]

Are we talking chemical weapons or Gadafi's well known flatulence?

[5-element]

He is known to have[:'(] mustard gas. Not nice.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Joe"]Its kicked off then.French planes are over Libya and have fired at an armoured vehicle. Lets hope that Gaddafi is taken out this time around.[/quote]

Very stupid and naive comment, it's his country irregardless of what you think of him, it's nothing more than what the English police would have done to the miners had they guns. If an overwhelming number of the libyan people want to depose him then they cannot fail, the majority will always win. Not to mention of course that other than the oil produced there and the current deals in place for aircraft  and other military equipment with the French it's really nothing to do with us or anyone else.

[idun]

It's his country? Really, duly elected was he, in properly democratic elections, nah.

He's a despot and like them all feathers his own nest.

I salute the people who have risen against him and am glad that something is being done to help them and hope that it does.

[5-element]

Beside which, a golden opportunity for Sarkozy.  Libya as his Falklands - which should help with the next presidential election. Apart from the oil. Apart from the claims of the Qadaffi clan that they gave him money for his presidential campaign, (now asking for it back), and will give evidence to the world. So if the campaign works out, it might be a win-win-win for president Sarkozy (destroy the evidence), no wonder he wanted us to be seen to be the first there.

So altogether, not terribly altruistic reasons. Still, the Libyans do need help, it's a pity it couldn't happen a little earlier even.

[Quillan]

[quote user="idun"]It's his country? Really, duly elected was he, in properly democratic elections, nah. He's a despot and like them all feathers his own nest. I salute the people who have risen against him and am glad that something is being done to help them and hope that it does.[/quote]

Yes it is his country, he is from the Qaddadfa tribe and is their leader. He and some of his fellow officers seized power (in 1969) because of the corrupt royal family at the time (King Idris 1) with the approval of his people. The UK organised a small force to enter Libya, depose him and release the 'political' prisoners in jail to enable them to form a government leading to elections but this plan was stopped at the last moment by the US who, at the time, wanted him to stay in power. How did his tribe become so powerful in Libya compared to other tribes, well they were settled there by the English and the French under the secret Sykes Picot agreement which has caused a lot of the modern problems in the middle east.

He may of feathered his own nest but is that also not what the countries are doing who are currently involved. Also, is this not another example of America, the UK and other countries attacking Muslims yet again and opening us up to the possibility of fresh acts of terrorism by Muslim extremists within Europe and beyond. I was round my friends house last night to watch France thrash Wales, we had a meal before hand and all the French were very worried that this may 'back fire' for exactly those reasons.

I agree with many that this guy is a tyrant, a thoroughly nasty bit of work and I have no wish to defend him or his actions but others must also accept responsibility, but then you reap what you sow in life. Plessey UK, it is well documented, were happy not just to sell military equipment to him making large profits but if you can remember back to the late 80's were also selling him electrical torturing equipment till public outcry in the UK stopped them. The Russians have sold him aircraft as have the US, UK (only Lynx helicopters), Italy and other countries. As I said he still has an order for 12 Mirage fighters in place with France. He had the money and all those who are pompously getting involved were happy to take it at the time. Now that there is no money because his assets (money) have been seized abroad there is nothing to be made from him other than getting their hands on the oil. So the race is on between France and the US and at the end I bet there is a major falling out between the two.

[JSKS]

It's also worth noting that the idea of a fixed ''country'' is an imposed idea in much of the Arab world where territory was traditionally the possession of the tribe. Inevitably, if more than one tribe form one political unit or ''country'', particularly where this thrust upon them, there will be conflict.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of trading with countries that do not operate a constitutional democracy (which would limit terribly world trade), I wonder why the UN has chosen to intervene in this particular internal dispute?

[Hoddy]

I can't see any logic in this either. What exactly do we think we're doing ?

Hoddy

[woolybanana]

France has pushed the panic button on this one as they see the Med and Libya as their zone of influence. For them, they want the oil, of course, but to sell vast amounts of military hardware, as well as adding Libya to Francophonie, eventually. Have you not noticed that self-satisfied, smug look on Sarko's face now, as he sees himself at the head of the new Mediterranean Union? And, for the moment, the French Gollum has scrambled himself a place at the high table with the big kids, but it won't last.

Of course there will be a falling out with the Americans, just as soon as it suits the French.

Gadaffi is evil and has maintained a much harsher regime internally than those countries round him, and he deserves topping. The problem is that the UN actions might cause a stalemate if the people are unable to sling him out which will eventually divide the country, with Cyreniaca becoming independent, poor as it does not have the oil and heavily influenced by Egypt, with the Muslim brothers, whilst Tripolitania keeps most of the oil revenues, and Gaddafi, who will then become a mischief maker again, and will invite his friends, the Russians and Chinese to help him.

If the tribes see their interest in changing sides, then he is finished, but up to now they have been bribed to remain loyal; we shall see in the coming weeks.

[idun]

I am not politically naieve at all. I don't trust policitians, but sometimes IMO they do get it right.

He took over the country and has reigned over it since. I have no problem with those that are fighting for their freedom to be helped, these people need help now and I want them to have it.

Why should 'anything' be 'made' from him. He should be out, that is not 'making' something from him, or maybe the country needs splitting. The 'people' of Libya can then decide their own futures.

I have lots of problems with peoples in the world who will not 'fight' for their freedom and aid is sent to these countries that ends up in despots hands.

Time will have it's way in the end and I'll be well gone before the world is, if ever, at peace and my hope a highly reduced world population can all live well in the future.

RE the 80's, well I was not in the UK in the 80's I was in France and in France's great democracy public outcrys about such things? I remember a lot but nothing of this. There were cheers when the exocets made their mark though, if that's some sort of 'public' outcry, that was sobering for us, I'll tell you.

[Quillan]

One thing of course, and it's something I don't know, out of the 6.4M people who live in Libya (2010 census) how many are 'rebels'? I say this because on the TV today they are saying how all Libya wants change but does it? I mean we have seen demonstrators, now called rebels and we have seen people who allegedly support Gaddafi but what are the percentages (I am not talking guesstimates), it would be interesting to know these things don't you think? I mean if the whole of Tripoli were rebels that's only about 1.6M, less than a third but then we are assuming that everyone who lives there is a rebel and they may not be. Could we possibly have a 'tail wagging the dog' scenario? I have had a 'punt' round the Internet and apart from the population count (which may not be accurate)  find it impossible to find out these numbers.[:(]

[woolybanana]

If the secret police and other thugs could be removed abd people given a free voice, then you might get the answer to this question.

Cyraenica has never been keen, Fezzan just keeps taking what it can get, Sirte is his, but of Tripoli, who knows?

[idun]

As Wooly said, IF the people were able to choose then we'd see.

A friend of my son's father is Libyan. We have discussed what he has been saying about this family and how afraid they have been since all this has started. My son said that he thought that I was calling them 'cowards' as they want to get out or away from the trouble. AND that is how most people are, the 'flee' instinct is strong, but nothing would have been changed anywhere without 'fight' by sadly a few even in England.

Most people prefer to not get involved and it is always down to a minority to take the risks. AND for that, I believe that they should be helped as we can do just that in Libya.

Trouble in Syria now too. I'm not surprised.

[Quillan]

So the answer to my question is nobody seems to know, but if there are more pro than anti Gaddafi people then you don't need a pole in some ways, just playing devils advocate.

Did anyone watch The Politics Show today. It seems a deal has been stuck with the Arab League, they will support the no fly zone in Libya providing everyone keeps out of the other Arab countries like Bahrain (as an example) where people don't even have guns to shoot back. My guess is that there will be ground forces, Gaddafi will be thrown out and that Libya will become a satellite of Europe and America s that our oil interests will be protected. I also suspect that the troops will stay longer in Iraq until the middle east stabilises.

[idun]

No ofcourse no one knows. AND when there is a proper election, there will still be people who cannot be arxed to vote too, but I daresay will have a whinge about who ever gets in.

There has been such rubbish on TV in the last week and much scare mongering but that is what they always do. Drop the Dead Donkey coming to life, how scary is that!

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Democracy in countries like that will never ever work as long as there is too big a rift between the haves and have nots. Democracy only works well when the majority of people are made up by the middle class. Socrates was right.

[Quillan]

In a way it's medieval. if you don't give people basic education, use religion in the control of the few to scare people then, just in case, you have the 'police' who come in the night, it sounds like the UK a few centuries back. I also wonder if the UK and other western countries would be in the mess it is now if we didn't have democracy. See the thing is we are all taught from an early age, in fact it's drummed in to us to a degree, that England is the mother of democracy and that democracy is good and right but is it or is it just how we are programed. If it is why did we not let people in the countries we once had as part of the Empire have democracy in our time there. We have our 'values' one of which is democracy, one man (woman) one vote but that does not mean that it's also right for other peoples and we should not go round forcing it on people. One example that comes to mind is Iraq, more people have died there since we put European and American troops there than when Saddam came to power. No wonder many Iraqis are now thinking that perhaps things were not so bad under Saddam. What about Eastern block countries that got rid of the communists and became self governing with elections, their lot has only got worse which is why so many leave.

The other thing of course is by forcing democracy in such a volatile region we may end up with something we don't want like the political arm of a well known Muslim terrorist group, then what do we do, claim the elections were 'fixed' invade again and throw them out till the people choose a party that 'we' like, look what happened when they overthrew the Shar of Iran.

Sometimes its much better to keep our noses out of other peoples business and leave well alone.

[bixy]

The people of Scotland want independence. They are rebelling. They have seized arms and aircraft and are advancing south. [They tend to do this every few hundred years or so.] The British government are attacking the rebel forces. Presumably we would welcome the Libyan air force to come and bomb London, the UK air defence system, and the British troops trying to suppress the rebellion.

Patrick

[woolybanana]

Presumably this would be after the British Government had rejected their legitimate demands as expressed through various ballots, including a referendum, a priviledge not granted to the Libyan people.

[bubbles]

Thanks so much for writing that, Q.

I know next to nothing about foreign affairs so wouldn't have dared voice my opinion.

You've just done it for me and said exactly what I've been thinking.

[pachapapa]

I wonder if the Colonel Khadafi's irascibility may lengthen the skirmish; his gene pool suggests a tendency to impulsiveness.

But then being the son of a corsican free french fighter pilot and a desert tribeslady, a certain lack of tolerance is to be expected.[;-)]

Historical coincidence that the french should use a corsican air base, named after their erstwhile air force captain, to launch attacks on his son. 

Preziosi aurait ainsi, selon la rumeur, été accidenté dans le désert à bord de son Hurricane et aurait été recueilli par des bédouins de la tribu Senoussi, nouant une idylle avec une jeune femme de la tribu dont il aurait eu un fils.AFP