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DSK, can we believe this?


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Frenchie, don't leave. Have a couple of days break, say le weekend [;-)] and then come back.

We will never agree about most things, it doesn't invalidate what you say, or what I say, we are just different people, AND what do you know, we may actually agree about that little statement.

This board should be like being à table in France. Never had a dinner yet where everyone didn't have their own point of view and sometimes it has got heated and there have been raised voices. But apart from once, when we had a very silly english man à table who walked out, everyone has happily left, bises all round and until the next time, and that is a very good thing in France!!

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[quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="EmilyA"]Could somebody explain to me what the "Anglo-Saxon media" are? (Not just used on here it was also on the TV debate last night). Are there many Anglo-Saxons in America? Does it exclude Celts and Vikings? I think we should be told.[/quote] No I wont but if you read Winston's History of the English speaking peoples, then the penny will drop.[/quote]

Poor Emily, she posts what is clearly a tongue in cheek question, but he penny didn't drop, and the irony was lost.

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Yes indeed, it was a tongue in cheek question as "I think we should be told" at the end implied. I do find it irritating though that Anglo-Saxon is used to lump together what is perceived as one British and American view of the world.

I also have a lovely image in my head of the "Anglo-Saxon media" writing in words of one syllable liberally interspersed with words beginning with f and c...

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I now feel guilty as I suggested to Frenchie to drop it (not drop out!) as I didn't want her to get blue in the face trying to explain things from her point of view.

Yes Clair and 5E you are no longer typically French, as I am no longer typically English.  We are a mixture and I love that.  Frenchie has been giving a more typically French point of view and I agree with most of what she says.

[quote user="Clair"]
(I am not speaking for Frenchie here, simply thinking aloud)

For many people, this is just too difficult to accept.
Here's a Frenchman with international stature; who carries the hopes of millions of French people; who seems to embody the image of a French man as the French like to be seen: jovial, bon vivant, attractive to the other sex, with international stature, yet attached to his roots; with a family who loves him despite his lapses; with a wife who is successful in her own right, yet sets her career aside to support his aspirations.
This man cannot possibly fall from his pedestal, he has to have been pushed.

Kubler-Ross model for death and bereavement counselling, personal change and trauma: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance[/quote]

I don't feel this is the main point of the typically French attitude, that "this man cannot possibly fall from his pedestal".  The political consequences obviously exist, but to me the typically French have been bitterly shocked in the past week to see the way he has been treated without any proof of his guilt, dragged from a plane, taken to a sordid New York police station, questioned all night on a chair, before being shown the next day to the whole world handcuffed, tired, unshaven, then thrown into that awful prison.

One elderly lady near here (very Catholic type) said "It's worse than if he had killed someone!".

Before being too influenced by the "anglo saxon" press, there could, just could, be another version.

French IMF Managing Director who has a daughter living in New York, regularly stops off there to visit her on his way to Europe.  He stays the night in New York, leaves his hotel to have lunch with his daughter, then goes on to the airport where he realises he has forgotten his mobile.  So he calls the hotel for someone to bring it to him.  Next thing, he is suddenly arrested.

None of us know what really happened.

 

Frenchie, reviens stp.   [kiss]

 

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Frenchie, the Forum would be a poorer place without you.

You can't leave over a difference of opinion because we all have those from time to time, as Coops has pointed out.

You are, after all, the person who started the most popular thread of all time.......TSWAS (see, I've even got a pet name fopr it!)

Please reconsider.

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Of course none of us knows here whether he is innocent or guilty and even after the trial whatever the outcome, doubts may remain depending on the strength, presentation of evidence etc. But the police have decided that there was enough evidence to charge him. s Due to the gravity of the charges, being remanded in custody would not have been surprising, so it is fortunate for him that he has sufficient wealth to purchase bail.

I don't think you are being as dispassionate about this case either when you use words such as being 'dragged from a plane' sordid police station' , questioned all night'.

Apparently his flight had been prearranged well in advance so no fleeing the country and phoning the hotel for his phone could demonstrate that he had no knowledge of the rape because it had not happened, or may be he was just testing the reaction of the hotel staff?

I don't understand Frenchie's reluctance to entertain the thought that he could have done it.

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Christine what you have just written about the way DSK was just treated, echoes a post of mine much earlier in the thread. Frenchie is not alone in her view of that at least. Some of us have been trying very hard to understand and I'm sorry that she thinks we aren't.

I do believe that most people here are willing to listen to the evidence before they finally make their mind up.

 

Hoddy

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I do think that the police, in any country, often react and use bully boy tactics.

Regardless of who the person is, famous and important, or obscure and down-and-out, respect to human dignity should be shown.  Using a bit of rough handling is one thing (and I disagree with even that) but there is no possible reason for letting images of someone's humiliation (because that is what it amounts to) be broadcast all over the place.

I have a great deal of horror of such actions and I cannot see that they have any place in any society that calls itself civilised.

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Come on...let's get a grip. If Frenchie doesn't want to play any more then leave her be! Its' a personal choice thing.

I should probably attempt to 'validate' my next comments by giving a list of qualifying criteria before opening my mouth....but I'm not going to. After all - this is just an on-line forum - take it or leave it.

2 things I feel about the French psychi. 1. the expectation to conform and 2. the almost irreverent approach to 'authority'.

On point 1, from the very outset, the French education system demands conformity. Most easily (and quickly!) demonstrated by the lack of 'please discuss' sessions at school. Most things are not open for discussion, they are simply doled out and learnt 'parrot' fashion. What one 'thinks' about the information shared is pretty irrelevant. Things may have, or may be, changing but I wouldn't know - long time since I was at school! Day-to-day language is littered with: c'est obligatoire, il faut, vous devez, c'est normale, ce n'est pas normale, etc etc, etc. There is a certain pressure to 'always' do things in a certain way and, if you don't, you're stuffed! Or, you almost always have to start again! Then we have...

Point 2 - Authority - precious, elite, untouchable, demi-gods, we are not worthy...words and phrases that spring to mind

So - when someone IN AUTHORITY doesn't CONFORM it's almost unthinkable.

Not sure that helps but I feel much better!

Simon :-)

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Being more left of centre politically and thinking about the last time she gave the forum a 'rest' when the pension age was discussed she feels the political end of the world has happened in France and nobody is around from the left to seriously oppose Sarko in the next elections and so he will get another term in office. It must be quite upsetting.
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But this is how they do things in America. Are some of you saying because he is French and it isn't done like that here, the USA should accomodate him differently, or because he is rich and famous?

Or has this case, ironically because of the public interest, just made people take more notice of the US judicial process?

I am getting a feeling that some wish fair trials abroad should be involved, eg its in another country so their justice system is clearly dodgy. I'm no fan of the way the US, but he should be treated the same as everyone else, the fact he is famous and therefore newsworthy is just one of those things.
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[quote user="Hoddy"] Christine what you have just written about the way DSK was just treated, echoes a post of mine much earlier in the thread. Frenchie is not alone in her view of that at least. Some of us have been trying very hard to understand and I'm sorry that she thinks we aren't.
I do believe that most people here are willing to listen to the evidence before they finally make their mind up.
Hoddy

[/quote]

My view has been not to get involved the knitting that some were determined to, until now; I have said before that the benefits of the law in most of the western world is that someone is innocent until proven guilty; except in the case of rape where a man is unjustly named and shamed before trial. However all things are possible, of course if the evidence we are not privy to shows it then people will accept the verdict; until then it is indecent to assume his guilt. As regards his morals well, a seducer is not a rapist, that is something else, the situation does seem a bit out of kilter with even the worst of his past history, he has discreetly hired prostitutes in the past and so why would he risk what he stood for against this scenario.  As regards his treatment since the charges, if the guy had been one of many other rapists his treatment might have assumed he was a known serial rapist/murderer, but he wasn't, in fact it demonstrates the violent mindset of the americans.

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Come back Frenchie - you are absolutely right, 'innocent until proven guilty' and absolutely nobody on this forum knows any of the actual facts...

I

was a police officer in England and unavoidably had to be part of rape

investigations on a number of occasions. One in particular springs to mind

where I was the first on the scene of a 'stranger rape' where a young woman had

been attacked in the street, dragged into an alleyway, raped and discarded like

a used cigarette packet. I was so angry. Had my police partner and I have

caught that man the same night, we would have struggled to keep our hands off

him. I will never forget the way that poor girl was sobbing. Fortunately the

man was caught, but not before he had raped again.

I have always found it difficult to watch movies with rape scenes and still

walk out of the room if something like that comes on the tv. Rape is not just a

sexual thing, it is invariably a man trying to prove he can control others and

is demonstrating his power. In common with almost every male police officer, it

was at times like that I felt embarrassed to be a man.

Whatever DSK may or may not have done in the past, I have not read anything to

suggest he has a criminal record for sex offences. Yes, he might have 'an eye'

for women, but what honest heterosexual male doesn't? And, hand on heart, how

many men (and some women) would actually say 'no' to a sexual fling if they

thought they could get away with it? No, for me, DSK is a flirt who has perhaps

had the odd affair or two, but I do not think he is a sex offender. If it is

later conclusively proved that he is, he will have to face the consequences.

But I am very surprised at the lynch mob attitude of some people on the forum and

it is surprising just who is behaving like that…



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The problem with sexual assualt is that it's a "he said/she said" thing. But  he's the accusee so he's innocent until proven guilty.  Thus, by implication, until the trial begins, and after it should he be acquitted, she is at best a liar and at worst a blackmailer/extortionist/conspirator in a bid to blacken the name of her alleged attacker, she's perjoured herself in front of the grand jury already and she's open to be called all the unpleasant names which get chucked at women in these circumstances.  And yet, and yet, his story must always be believed and she must be lying, because he is innocent until the legal system decides otherwise and she has no such defence.  But she is still going to be on trial as much as he is, make no mistake about that.  She deserves the same benefit of the doubt as he does.

I don't know if he's guilty.  But then I don't know that she is lying either.

 

Whatever, I would certainly like to see all remand prisoners in the US being treated better than they are.  For DSK and all the other thousands of prisoners on remand in the US, there must surely be a better way than this.  At least he can afford bail and his suffering didn't last as long as it will for many of his fellow inmates who have no financial resources to get them out of prison, and may well not be guilty either.

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

Whatever, I would certainly like to see all remand prisoners in the US being treated better than they are.  For DSK and all the other thousands of prisoners on remand in the US, there must surely be a better way than this.

[/quote]

Absolutely right there, Debs!

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 I have no idea whether or not DSK is guilty, but if it was a set up it was a clever one because it has been a catalyst for other facts about him to become known.

I've forgotten who wrote they thought he was a bit of a flirt and wouldn't turn down an offer, etc, but yesterday I read of several other episodes where women have said they made it clear his attentions were not welcome, plus paying prostitutes huge amounts and at least a couple of affairs. It somehow seems unlikely they are all making it up.

I've just come back from France and I know that many people viewed him with great hope as the next political leader, but even if he is innocent and taken seriously in France, surely the damage is done - what place could he have now on the international stage ?

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

 

Whatever, I would certainly like to see all remand prisoners in the US being treated better than they are.  For DSK and all the other thousands of prisoners on remand in the US, there must surely be a better way than this.  At least he can afford bail and his suffering didn't last as long as it will for many of his fellow inmates who have no financial resources to get them out of prison, and may well not be guilty either.

[/quote]

How are the States different.  In  France  people can be held for so long in remand that if they are found guilty they can have already served too much time and those that are found innocent? what of those poor souls? The good thing about american justice is that DSK will have his trial this year and not several years down the line.

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[quote user="idun"][quote user="cooperlola"]

 

Whatever, I would certainly like to see all remand prisoners in the US being treated better than they are.  For DSK and all the other thousands of prisoners on remand in the US, there must surely be a better way than this.  At least he can afford bail and his suffering didn't last as long as it will for many of his fellow inmates who have no financial resources to get them out of prison, and may well not be guilty either.

[/quote]

How are the States different.  In  France  people can be held for so long in remand that if they are found guilty they can have already served too much time and those that are found innocent? what of those poor souls? The good thing about american justice is that DSK will have his trial this year and not several years down the line.

[/quote]Good point, Idun.  My main point really is that I'm not sure why DSK(who has the money for bail and the clout to get a short trial date) gets so much public sympathy (some of it on this forum) - and fair enough - for the treatment he got, when this goes on all the time without comment and just seems to be accepted as OK and the norm for ordinary remand prisoners who, equally, are quite likely to be found not guilty.  You are right - it's not just in the US.  Nor France for that matter.
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[quote user="Clair"]Dominique Strauss-Kahn: villain or victim?


It makes me grumble when I hear or read that "57 of people in France..."
No it's not 57% of people in France, it's 57%  out of 1000 random people who were asked. [:@]

Grumble over.

[:)]
[/quote]And so much depends upon how the question is posed:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086831/quotes

Actually, Clair, 57% is lower than one might assume if you believed some of the comments surrounding the case which suggest that "the French" (that collective consciousness[:D]) all feel the same way about this.

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[quote user="cooperlola"]... "the French" (that collective consciousness[:D]) all feel the same way about this.[/quote]

 [:D] [:D] [:D]

You know how to push my buttons!!

Is there such a thing as a Franco-English (or Anglo-French, or Anglo-Saxon-French, or even Saxon-Franco-English [8-)]) dual collective consciousness? (I suspect idun might want one too [:P])

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[quote user="Clair"][Is there such a thing as a Franco-English [/quote]Well, in common - I suspect  - with many "Anglais", I have ancestors - paternal grandmother in my case -  with decidedly Norman French (where is he, by the way?) surnames.

Whatever, like you, I hate to be thought of in terms of my nationality (one of the reasons I so detest sports which pitch nation against nation) - I'm me - I am not a country, for goodness's sake.  (I sound like "The Prisoner" now.[:-))])

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