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What is going on in London?


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Response to Braco.

Eh? I think you have been to different 3rd world countries from me, the ones I've been to have pot holes on main roads that are far far far worse than any I've seen in UK and France on minor roads.
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We are talking about this now with our French guests. Perhaps the UK could learn from the French and ban the covering of faces. The police would not need any excuse, they could just wade in and arrest anyone who covers their face with a scarf, hood or whatever before they ever did any damage. Must dash as I am serving dinner but I thought it worth a mention.
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[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]NormanH - and anyone else with similar 'concerns' or views about the 'reasons' (aka excuses) for this type of anarchic behaviour - pack it in !

I for one am not in the slightest interested in any reasons or excuses - I'm simply interested in the utterly unacceptable end result.

ALL of the thuggish anarchic behaviours we are witnessing in the UK are criminal and illegal - end of!

Poor young little darlings have had a hard life in the UK (not!) - so have the people of Somalia and a myriad of other desperate places on the planet - REAL victims. Maybe UK thugs should go and take a look.

Pathetic scum.

Simon - blood boiling, not happy[/quote]

If you read through this thread you will see that I have condemned this behaviour from the beginning, for example:

"This video clearly shows that this is neither a protest nor a riot

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkfz32_london-riot-clapham-junction-08-08-2011_news

Materialistic greed gone mad..."

I am not trying to excuse the looters who are simply acting from atavistic greed.

What I am looking for is where this culture of greed came from, and I am suggesting that it has its roots in unrestrained capitalism. Greed was made respectable in the 80s, and even celebrated in the 'loadsa money' period.

One New Labour's big failures was to collaborate with this.

We can't be surprised if these youths want their share, but we are surprised when they dare to take it, even if it is by mob rule.

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So, Norman, to stop the violence, state of emergency, cut Blackberry and mobile fones, warn the population and shoot with rubber bullets, water cannon and use riot squads from the military, then hunt out the perpetrators who have fanned the flames, not so much the kids who nicked a pair of speakers and give then hard labour. Then argue about the real causes and solutions.
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[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Simon-come-lately"]NormanH - and anyone else with similar 'concerns' or views about the 'reasons' (aka excuses) for this type of anarchic behaviour - pack it in ! I for one am not in the slightest interested in any reasons or excuses - I'm simply interested in the utterly unacceptable end result. ALL of the thuggish anarchic behaviours we are witnessing in the UK are criminal and illegal - end of! Poor young little darlings have had a hard life in the UK (not!) - so have the people of Somalia and a myriad of other desperate places on the planet - REAL victims. Maybe UK thugs should go and take a look. Pathetic scum. Simon - blood boiling, not happy[/quote]

If you read through this thread you will see that I have condemned this behaviour from the beginning, for example:
"This video clearly shows that this is neither a protest nor a riot
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkfz32_london-riot-clapham-junction-08-08-2011_news

Materialistic greed gone mad..."

I am not trying to excuse the looters who are simply acting from atavistic greed.


What I am looking for is where this culture of greed came from, and I am suggesting that it has its roots in unrestrained capitalism. Greed was made respectable in the 80s, and even celebrated in the 'loadsa money' period.
One New Labour's big failures was to collaborate with this.
We can't be surprised if these youths want their share, but we are surprised when they dare to take it, even if it is by mob rule.

[/quote]

What "share"?

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Because the UK chucks money down the drain on stooopid IT projects, QUANGOS and millions of people who take money from the public purse for doing *** all

And not because it insists on building aircraft carriers........ while I have to buy my BBQ from China, my TV from Japan, my cars from Germany......................
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[quote user="JK"]Is not Greed a feature of mankind since we stood and walked upright. It was around long enough ago to have rated ''Deadly Sin'' status.[/quote]

True, so it was condemned. Aquinas condemned Greed because "it is a sin directly against one's

neighbor, since one man cannot over-abound in external riches, without

another man lacking them.."

Until after  the 1979 election when it became respectable as the driving force in the new economy which was based on  unregulated finance.

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Those two girls talking on the BBC report have shaken me to the core.

"We are just showing the Police that we can do what we like"

"Its the fault of the government, yeah its all their fault, the conservatives, or is it labour? Who-ever' its their fault"

But these are local people whose businesses are being ransacked and whose homes are being burnt.............

"Yeah but they're rich, its all their fault, we are just showing the rich that we can do what we want"

My apologies as I am sure that I have not recalled it verbatim.

I am not at all interested in all the debate as to whether society is to blame, what political party or how far it dates back, they dont even know who is in government, they  do it because it excites them and they get things for free and most of all they know that they can get away with it, in any case they believe its not their fault, its the government and the rich people, (presumably the hard working immigrant shopkeepers currently trying to protect their livelyhoods and families).

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[quote user="JK"]So those that acquired wealth, or who sought to acquire wealth, before'79? Y'know, robber barons 'n stuff. Was that not greed?[/quote]

Sure but we called them robbers or pirates....

Or they built up a business and employed people.

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''True, so it was condemned. Aquinas condemned Greed because "it is a sin directly against one's neighbor, since one man cannot over-abound in external riches, without another man lacking them.." ''

Not true. Where the amount of riches are increased both the rich and poor can benefit. The politics of envy depends not on the absolute but on the comparative - at its worst you get the 'I don't care if I have it as long as he doesn't' nonsense
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Response to Braco.

Eh? I think you have been to different 3rd world countries from me, the ones I've been to have pot holes on main roads that are far far far worse than any I've seen in UK and France on minor roads.

Fine if that is all you aspire to - now maybe a good time to let the natural born scum bag a turn at running the county
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brianagain - don't be daft these thugs were born well after Thatcher !

They (the thugs) simply haven't been privy to any discipline and social etiquete due to bad parenting. But I guess that is someone else's fault as well heh???!!

Why are you looking for reasons ? You don't take or destroy other people's property just because 'you've got nothing better to do' - or do you?

Poor darlings - they've got no youth clubs, local grants for youth programmes have been cut, Ipods & Iphones are soooooo expensive and they've got nothing to do - well bl**dy well find something to do like most human beings with a brain seem to be able to.

Hey - and do you want us all to be equal ??? That great old Socialism nut - the politics of envy!!

Simon :-)

 

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[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]

brianagain - don't be daft these thugs were born well after Thatcher !

They (the thugs) simply haven't been privy to any discipline and social etiquete due to bad parenting. But I guess that is someone else's fault as well heh???!!

Why are you looking for reasons ? You don't take or destroy other people's property just because 'you've got nothing better to do' - or do you?

Poor darlings - they've got no youth clubs, local grants for youth programmes have been cut, Ipods & Iphones are soooooo expensive and they've got nothing to do - well bl**dy well find something to do like most human beings with a brain seem to be able to.

Hey - and do you want us all to be equal ??? That great old Socialism nut - the politics of envy!!

Simon :-)[/quote]

I suspect your response perfectly illustrates my point.

Brian (again)

 

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[quote user="brianagain"][quote user="ViVienne"]human beings with a brain aren't rioting in the streets. The only shop left unlooted on one high st was Waterstones![/quote]

They've probably all got Kindles

Brian (again)

[/quote]

Nicked this week?

http://catchalooter.tumblr.com/

http://www.met.police.uk/pressbureau/Bur09/page07.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/sets/72157627267892973/

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[quote user="JK"]''True, so it was condemned. Aquinas condemned Greed because "it is a sin directly against one's neighbor, since one man cannot over-abound in external riches, without another man lacking them.." ''

Not true. Where the amount of riches are increased both the rich and poor can benefit. The politics of envy depends not on the absolute but on the comparative - at its worst you get the 'I don't care if I have it as long as he doesn't' nonsense[/quote]

But the problem with greed, as opposed to a normal desire to better yourself is that both don't benefit.

Greed is 'take and keep for me' as we are seeing on the streets...

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I've been hovering over the keyboard wondering if I should post or not... I'm certainly in the camp that feels there is no excuse for what is happening but having read Norman's posts I do kind of agree with what he's saying ... in that I ask myself the same questions... where does this mentality come from?  Where does the gangster mentality come from, where does the not working, the yob culture, the binge drinking, the demands, the excuses... It would be good to try and understand where and why.

Sadly though, when those questions are asked, the people responsible for the violence jump on this and use it as an excuse... it's not their fault, it's because there are cuts/bankers/wealthy people/tory government... and this somehow makes it ok.  There are no excuses for the violence and looting, it is criminal but as Normal says... why?  Maybe asking those questions right now is not the best time but it would be good to get an honest answer... and not the usual rhetoric about broken homes, deprived neighbourhoods and poverty... there's more to it... it is a cultural thing... and how do you change that culture?

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They are not just smashing and stealing, they are burning other people's houses down, people who have worked hard to get their house.  It's unbelievable and there is no excuse or reason to justify it.

Get the army in, ship them all off to Japan to help the people who really have something to be sorry about.  There was no looting there, just respect and dignity.  What a culture difference, if you can call that a culture.

 

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