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[quote user="NickP"]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"] show me one highly successful Socialist / Communist state. Simply the politics of envy - you've got it and I want it = thieves. Simon :-)[/quote]

China?? Come on Simon not all rioters and looters are members of the Labour party, any more than all the hang 'em and birch 'em mob are all Conservatives.

[/quote]

Now that is funny ! China a highly successful socialist / communist state? I guess it depends what you class as successful - it's not always about money NickP......there are lots of other success measures on which China fails miserably.

Simon :-)

  

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[quote user="Simon-come-lately"][quote user="NickP"]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"] show me one highly successful Socialist / Communist state. Simply the politics of envy - you've got it and I want it = thieves. Simon :-)[/quote]

China?? Come on Simon not all rioters and looters are members of the Labour party, any more than all the hang 'em and birch 'em mob are all Conservatives.

[/quote]

Now that is funny ! China a highly successful socialist / communist state? I guess it depends what you class as successful - it's not always about money NickP......there are lots of other success measures on which China fails miserably.

Simon :-)

  

[/quote]

Look; you asked a question and I answered it,  you never asked me my thoughts on the morals of the regime. Whether you like it or not China is now probably the most powerful country in the world.

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[quote user="Rose"]This is what the rest of the world are saying in their press... how very very very sad it is too

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024486/UK-RIOTS-2011-British-youths-unpleasant-violent-world.html

[/quote]

That particular author has even more of a hobby horse to ride than most of us posting on here [:)]

He has even written a book called Spoiled Rotten so I think we can see what his point of view is.

I have already posted a link to Le Monde which shows French feeling.

Here as a contrast is what the New York Times is saying

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/world/europe/10youth.html?ref=world

and worse publicity

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/sports/london-rioting-prompts-fears-over-soccer-matches-and-the-olympics.html?ref=world

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[quote user="NickP"][quote user="Simon-come-lately"][quote user="NickP"]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"] show me one highly successful Socialist / Communist state. Simply the politics of envy - you've got it and I want it = thieves. Simon :-)[/quote]

China?? Come on Simon not all rioters and looters are members of the Labour party, any more than all the hang 'em and birch 'em mob are all Conservatives.

[/quote]

Now that is funny ! China a highly successful socialist / communist state? I guess it depends what you class as successful - it's not always about money NickP......there are lots of other success measures on which China fails miserably.

Simon :-)

  

[/quote]

Look; you asked a question and I answered it,  you never asked me my thoughts on the morals of the regime. Whether you like it or not China is now probably the most powerful country in the world.

[/quote]

Powerful ? so  - power = success does it ? Interesting......

Simon:-)

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[quote user="brianagain"][quote user="Simon-come-lately"]show me one highly successful Socialist / Communist state. [/quote]

Cuba - in education and health care for the masses rather than the elite.

Brian (again)
[/quote]

I have been to Cuba many times and personally experienced their healthcare; I wouldn’t describe it as highly successful. I couldn’t even find some basic prescription drugs in Havana.

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[quote user="nomoss"]   .. "stealing" jobs.[/quote]

Stealing jobs [:-))]

If for the majority of those that feel so hard done by for not having a job, that they feel the need for looting, as seen these last few days, I'd say to them :

"Get off your fat derrière, get on yer bike and get a job! Whilst you were in bed, moaning that society definitely owes you som'it, an immigrant (most probably an illegal one at that) has come to do the job you now think he has stolen of you !!  "

 

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[quote user="LAiffricaine"]

[quote user="nomoss"]   .. "stealing" jobs.[/quote]

Stealing jobs [:-))]

If for the majority of those that feel so hard done by for not having a job, that they feel the need for looting, as seen these last few days, I'd say to them :

"Get off your fat derrière, get on yer bike and get a job! Whilst you were in bed, moaning that society definitely owes you som'it, an immigrant (most probably an illegal one at that) has come to do the job you now think he has stolen of you !!  "

[/quote]

Such an easy thing to say from your position, every day 200-300 applicants for the jobs advertised on the internet agencies, take some time to actually take a look.

The looters from the block nearby in Croydon have jobs! live in their own mortgaged or privately rented apartments.

Some of the looters were youngsters, below the age of employment and of course below the age at which the courts will do anything unless its for murder or rape.

Employing illegal immigrants is also against the law.

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[quote user="brianagain"][quote user="Simon-come-lately"]show me one highly successful Socialist / Communist state. [/quote]

Cuba - in education and health care for the masses rather than the elite.

Brian (again)
[/quote]

Brian - you've got to be kidding me ! You've obviously never been to Cuba - go and take a look and talk to the local man or woman on the street about access to healthcare and education. Sure - they have a worlwide reputation for great medical and education facilities but, like all champagne socialism / communism , it's really only available to the party members, elite or those from outside Cuba willing to pay! I think you'll find a huge gap between what the government want to portray to the outside world and the reality on the ground.

Simon :-)

 

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Another article which has many points I agree with.

"What we're now seeing across the cities of England is the reflection of a

society run on greed – and a poisonous failure of politics and social

solidarity"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-reflect-society-run-greed-looting

"Politicians and media talking heads counter that none of that has

anything to do with sociopathic teenagers smashing shop windows to walk

off with plasma TVs and trainers. But where exactly did the rioters get

the idea that there is no higher value than acquiring individual wealth,

or that branded goods are the route to identity and self-respect?"

He goes further than I would, as does the man in this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o

but I think that solutions can't be found without careful analysis of causes.

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If I may leave aside the illegality of working on the black, I have been surprised at the number of hand car wash sites which have sprung up on pub car parks and any bit of spare land available. The one I use has always been staffed by young Eastern Europeans or Arab men and always very polite and doing a great job for the pittance being charged.

There is always a way of earning money if you want to. It may not suit your longer term aspirations but it's a great way of supplementing your benefits and shows a willingness to do something for yourselves rather than just accepting the benefit culture which now exists in the UK.

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[quote user="Théière"][quote user="LAiffricaine"]

[quote user="nomoss"]   .. "stealing" jobs.[/quote]

Stealing jobs [:-))]

If for the majority of those that feel so hard done by for not having a job, that they feel the need for looting, as seen these last few days, I'd say to them :

"Get off your fat derrière, get on yer bike and get a job! Whilst you were in bed, moaning that society definitely owes you som'it, an immigrant (most probably an illegal one at that) has come to do the job you now think he has stolen of you !!  "

[/quote]

Such an easy thing to say from your position, every day 200-300 applicants for the jobs advertised on the internet agencies, take some time to actually take a look.

The looters from the block nearby in Croydon have jobs! live in their own mortgaged or privately rented apartments.

Some of the looters were youngsters, below the age of employment and of course below the age at which the courts will do anything unless its for murder or rape.

Employing illegal immigrants is also against the law.

[/quote]

Perhaps those that have their own home should be made to accept the victims who have lost their homes till they are repaired. Likewise, for the very young, their parents should be forced to put up the victims. It's about time these sort of people understood the results of their actions and took responsibility.

As to the unions not liking it, well the riots caused the damage, if there was no riots and damage the properties wouldn't need rebuilding or repaired so they have lost nothing.

Any 'rights' that these offenders had, well they were lost when they picked up a brick (or whatever) and threw it.

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[quote user="NormanH"]Another article which has many points I agree with.
"What we're now seeing across the cities of England is the reflection of a society run on greed – and a poisonous failure of politics and social solidarity"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-reflect-society-run-greed-looting

"Politicians and media talking heads counter that none of that has anything to do with sociopathic teenagers smashing shop windows to walk off with plasma TVs and trainers. But where exactly did the rioters get the idea that there is no higher value than acquiring individual wealth, or that branded goods are the route to identity and self-respect?"

He goes further than I would, as does the man in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o

but I think that solutions can't be found without careful analysis of causes.


[/quote]

 

Thanks Norman. Very interesting links.

I think Darcus Howe sums everything up rather well with the use of one poignant word "insurrection". In a society predicated upon greed & materialism, an ideology drip-fed to us all by the Murdoch press & media machine, and in more recent years joined firmly by the emascualted BBC, since the Andrew Gilligan affair, frankly what did we expect to happen? After all, in simplistic terms, an example, at the upper echelons of U.K. society, has now been clearly set by bankers & our self-orientated members of parliament. Ever since the adoption of the ethos of free market capitalism (dating back to Thatcher & her close acquaintence accross the seas Ronald Reagan) & adhered to by all successive governments of both persuasions, this has been the inevitable course in which we are headed. To deny this, I personally feel, is to deny the strikingly obvious.. Repeated work ethics & rhetoric apart.

Sara

 

 

 

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 I'm tempted to repeat what I read on another forum ' funny how all the people with the answers to this moved to France !'

 What I simply do not understand is why Thatcher, who has not been in power for 30 years, gets the blame - her edict was surely if you want something, then work for it - that's not what is going on here, for sure.

In addition, if you just read the Uk papers, watch the TV etc, its easy to think the UK is all bankers and Murdoch press and  looters, and that lots of people behave like that - in reality they don't.....both sets of people are a tiny minority - a worrying minority, but a minority all the same.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

 I'm tempted to repeat what I read on another forum ' funny how all the people with the answers to this moved to France !'

In addition, if you just read the Uk papers, watch the TV etc, its easy to think the UK is all bankers and Murdoch press and  looters, and that lots of people behave like that - in reality they don't.....both sets of people are a tiny minority - a worrying minority, but a minority all the same.

[/quote]

That's not quite fair RH - the articles we get links for, with analysis as well as possible solutions,  are written from the UK! It is interesting to read the French papers, and watch French news for their take on the events too, and to hear directly from friends or relatives who are in England.

Of course you are right about most people being decent, generous, capable of compassion and of acts of kindness, and most of us don't consort with bankers (apologies for anyone reading this who does) or looters - but does it mean that we should ignore what is happening? And have our own  reactions to what we hear/see/read?

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

 I'm tempted to repeat what I read on another forum ' funny how all the people with the answers to this moved to France !'

 What I simply do not understand is why Thatcher, who has not been in power for 30 years, gets the blame - her edict was surely if you want something, then work for it - that's not what is going on here, for sure.

In addition, if you just read the Uk papers, watch the TV etc, its easy to think the UK is all bankers and Murdoch press and  looters, and that lots of people behave like that - in reality they don't.....both sets of people are a tiny minority - a worrying minority, but a minority all the same.

[/quote]

I don't pretend to have the answers, just attempt to understand root causes.

I think you have an over-simple idea of Thatcherism. It was about liberating the strong to prey on the weak, and abolishing values of restraint and morality. (the Big Bang, and De-regulation)

 Judge people by  the amount they  earn, not by the value of what they do for society. (If you pay peanuts you get monkeys)  Denigrate those who work to improve the lives of others for  a low salary, and cut their jobs where possible so that the rich can pay lower taxes..

 Destroy manufacturing Industry and build the economy on gambling rather than hard work....

 A large part of the reason I came to France was to escape this pervading mentality, and for a while I was able to work (I have always worked until last year at the age of 63 when I became too ill. I managed a total of 42 years all the same ) in a society that still valued what I had to offer, and didn't measure me by the relatively low salary I had.

The ultimate effect of deregulation is the chaos we have seen on our screens where rats clamber on the backs of other rats for the trivial baubles that confer status in a society with warped values.

That is the legacy of Thatcher's philosophy of liberating greed

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

I'm tempted to repeat what I read on another forum ' funny how all the people with the answers to this moved to France !'

What I simply do not understand is why Thatcher, who has not been in power for 30 years, gets the blame - her edict was surely if you want something, then work for it - that's not what is going on here, for sure.

In addition, if you just read the Uk papers, watch the TV etc, its easy to think the UK is all bankers and Murdoch press and looters, and that lots of people behave like that - in reality they don't.....both sets of people are a tiny minority - a worrying minority, but a minority all the same.

[/quote]

Exactly but if you go down that route your shouted down. As I said to somebody only the other day don't blame just the bankers, there are those that borrowed the money knowing full well they couldn't afford to pay it back, the banks who lent the money and knew they couldn't afford to pay it back and there is also the last government who relaxed some of the criteria for lending to individuals, they are all too blame. Then you have the public sector worker who thinks it's obscene that MP's get £65k per year and that they, the public sector worker, is paying so much tax because they are in the high tax band totally ignoring the fact that their union boss (Prentis) is on over £143k per year which is slightly higher than the current PM who's 'membership' is 66 million compared to the union membership of some 1.3m million. All of a sudden they don't want to talk about it.

But overall you are right, these people are in a minority and in the case of the rioting ordinary people are very angry and frightened.

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NormanH.

How does/did cutting the jobs of low salaried workers enable the rich to pay less taxes?

I agree with you on not being judged by your salary but surely your French pension is proportional to your 42 years of cotisations and your level of cotisations (salary)?

In the UK I believe that the state pension would be the same for a banker as for a street sweeper both having 30 years of NIc contributions, the former having paid much more in.

I seem to recall that someone told me that there is a minimum French state pension meaning that the lowest paid workers (and perhaps those that were unemployed etc) got the same as moderate paid worker (whatever that is), is that what you are referring to.

Please correct me if I  am wrong for either country.

hope your recuperation is going well.

I can see where you are coming from and dont disagree with you but i do have a couple of questions/comments.

 

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Have a look at 'the take' UNISON has on pensions http://www.unison.org.uk they seem to have missed the fact that almost all of the final salary pensions have now gone in the private sector. What he (Prentice) is saying is that only the top people get these sort of pensions, well that's true but then so does he as he gets as part of his 'job' a final salary pension (pot calling the kettle black comes to mind). Therefore he is implying is that all public sector workers should a final salary pension. Well that's all well and good providing, like in the private sector, they contribute individually to their pension scheme like in the private sector with the company paying the same. But lets not kid our selves, the company in the case of public sector workers, is the tax payer so you need 'fat cats' who pay loads of tax to pay for the public sector pensions. I read somewhere (I can't remember where else I would give a link) that you need somewhere like 12 average private sector earners to pay for one average public sector worker (the calculation was actually four but you have to add all the other things in to the pot that a tax payer contributes to, infrastructure, health and public sector pensions it goes up to about 12). Its all about value for money and when I was in the UK I didn't mind paying the tax but I expected to get good value and not waste or my money spent on crazy things.
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You still don't get it do you?

In the U.K. we are all sons (& daughters) of Thatcher. We have inherited her ideology. I tempted to say full stop but I will desist from doing so.

Margaret Thatcher changed the national mindset, ethos & psychology of the British people. Irredeemably so I am afraid to say. The reality is that we now have a society in the U.K. which is overwhelmingly obessed by money. With all the attendant trappings of materialism, selfishness, lack of concern for those less fortunate than ourselves. This change in psyche has been aided & abetted by the insidious & constant drip feed of a national press & media which now lacks the quality of investigative journalism. To many intents & purposes the U.K. media now performs the function of an establishment mouthpiece in the U.K.

Now all those on benefits, including the sick & disabled, are widely viewed as dole scroungers. Which they are not. A minority are however. And so it goes on..

I feel you miss the point on the bankers. Yes a small minority of roulette playing self interested bankers are indeed culpable. Encouraged in their stupidity by the deregulated system around them. Undeniably a Thatcherite inspired deregulated model. The wider picture is that a completely unregulated financial sector also allowed & encouraged the behaviour & irresponsibilty of overlending, including crucially the proposterous overindulgence in this seen within the mortgage sector. This directly fed & to a very large extent caused the credit crunch.

Such free market ideology can indeed be traced all the way back to the Thatcher era. Indeed that's where it came from.. Tony Blair simply adopted the same free market ethos & ran with it as willingly & as happily as any Tory party would have done. Dour Scotsman Gordon Brown embraced & ran with it just as willingly. Pushed often by the Tory opposition to go even further in pushing the envelope of relaxation of the rules for the financial sector. Sheer & utter madness anyway you cut it. Traceable very easily back to Margaret Thatcher & her, revolutionary in its extremme, deregulation of the financial market. With a little help from Ronald Reagan. Not changed, modified or repealed by successive governments over the following decades. Whatever the skewed reporting of the U.K. press & media might have you believe.

There is nothing wrong with a work ethic. Of course not. However, such ethic has now become rhetorical for many people in hiding from a simple truth. Indeed a work ethic in a properly regulated, answerable and fairer society is a very good thing indeed.

Many people, including work orientated & highly successful people chose to leave the United Kingdom because they saw through the transparency of the free market system & its incumbent establishment. After all it has all been about making money to the exclusion of much else..

France sadly I feel is now heading the same way. Since the less than benigh influence of "Thatcherite" leaning Sarkozy. Events recently appear to have caught up with him however..

Sara

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