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What is going on in London?


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[quote user="Christine Animal"]

That's exactly it RH, when people become "rich" as they have worked very hard and deserve it, others who have sat doing nothing resent it and are jealous.

Of course many have a difficult time in life, but a thing which always makes us smile here in France when there is trouble in the suburbs, etc. is the view of the buildings where these "poor people" have to live and the number of satellite dishes on all the balconies!  If they are sometimes interviewed inside these flats about there dreadful situation, one can often see a large TV screen and a chaine hifi in the background.

 

[/quote]

It is also possible to work very hard for long hours on low wages and never become rich, or be rich simply because of inheritance.

The fallacy is that having material things equates to moral superiority. Not everyone who is 'rich' has worked for it. (Consider George Osborne)

If we promulgate that then we can expect people to want possessions to prove their worth.

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Chritsine - totally with you - well said!

Anyway - what is rich ? And...what's wrong with being rich. It seems totally acceptable to be poor!

Do we want everyone to be equal ? I doubt it - and how miserable would that be in any case! Nothing to aim for - just dull, dull, dull greyness.

I'm simply don't go for the Robin Hood attitude - show me one highly successful Socialist / Communist state. Simply the politics of envy - you've got it and I want it = thieves.

Simon :-)

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[quote user="Frederick"]

[quote user="NormanH"]Interesting to think that the Government is depending on the Police to sort this out.  George Osborne showed his usual grasp in March when he announced cuts to their Budget
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/07/police-chiefs-lose-28000-staff
[/quote]

 

 Given that the huge nembers of Police on the streets seems to have worked in London last night .  Will Londoners be happy to see their numbers cut to a level that may bring  a return of riots and looting ?   I think the whole stratedegy regarding the  Policing  of cities, to take into account what has just happened will have to be looked at again . Extra offices extra training extra equipment  and this is going to be expensive ... Perhaps the huge overseas aid package we seem to be financially supporting more than other countries  is where some of the money could be found ?  

Perhaps a part time  Police Community  Support Force for civil unrest  run like the TA from TA centers of trained and paid people is what is needed ?

[/quote]

Time to gird your loins and prepare for the inevitable.

The Intifada of the under classes is just beginning.

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I see on the lunchtime news that one young guy has been in court this morning for stealing 2 Burberry t-shirts during the riots.

'Apparently' - the resulting criminal record may adversely affect his future prospects, employment, and lifestyle. Poor thing !

If only he'd thought about that before he joined the riots - but then that would require a few brain cells!

Simon :-)
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This article explains what I have been trying to trace clumsily.

I have been trying to get to the bottom of why  and when accepted norms, instinctive for many of us have changed:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/no-shame-no-limits-has-the-behaviour-of-the-mob-destroyed-the-idea-of-british-civility-for-ever-2334863.html

French society is also  rule-based , with the Code Napoléon  and the importance of quoting the relevant 'texte'

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Sorry for the delay in answering RH but the first night of the rioting showed very clearly the  "its not me" attitude in that the police just stood around and there was a reluctance of anyone to 'own' the problem and sort things out. That was compounded by the fact that you had a new temporary police commissioner in charge of the Met (Tim Godwin) had only been in the job for a couple of weeks and his experience of this type of thing is very old (2001 to 2004, in charge of the Territorial Policing unit, the SPG replacement) after which he headed the Mobile Phone Crime team until he got his new, current posting.

As to the comment about the Tory government cutting the number f police on the streets. They made cuts to the policing budget and when doing so said the jobs could be lost in the admin side of things because they wanted to cut the bureaucracy which would cut admin jobs thus releasing police to get more of a police presence on the streets, sort of natural wastage if you like. It's is the police (well senior police) who are protecting these admin jobs which has resulted in approximately 12,000 police nationwide possibly loosing their jobs. This was not the intention of the government, in fact I clearly remember Cameron on PM's questions saying this some time back. I suspect after all this lot that none of the police will now loose their jobs.

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[quote user="NormanH"]This article explains what I have been trying to trace clumsily.
I have been trying to get to the bottom of why  and when accepted norms, instinctive for many of us have changed:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/no-shame-no-limits-has-the-behaviour-of-the-mob-destroyed-the-idea-of-british-civility-for-ever-2334863.html

French society is also  rule-based , with the Code Napoléon  and the importance of quoting the relevant 'texte'
[/quote]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/no-shame-no-limits-has-the-behaviour-of-the-mob-destroyed-the-idea-of-british-civility-for-ever-2334863.html

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[quote user="Simon-come-lately"] show me one highly successful Socialist / Communist state. Simply the politics of envy - you've got it and I want it = thieves. Simon :-)[/quote]

China?? Come on Simon not all rioters and looters are members of the Labour party, any more than all the hang 'em and birch 'em mob are all Conservatives.

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This is a very good assessment of why the UK is in this pickle: (can someone make this link live for me, pl).

 I agree with the final comment about the generous welfare state - and the culture of receiving benefits without havng to do anything in return for them ... says it better than I could

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8691363/London-and-UK-riots-The-long-retreat-of-order.html
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[quote user="Simon-come-lately"] Anyway - what is rich ? And...what's wrong with being rich. It seems totally acceptable to be poor! Do we want everyone to be equal ? I doubt it - and how miserable would that be in any case! Nothing to aim for - just dull, dull, dull greyness. [/quote]

You have probably heard of the French actress Marie-France Pisier who was very, very sadly found dead in her swimming pool at her home in the Var in April.  She was only sixty-six.  She was so intelligent, beautiful, witty, talented with such a lovely and unique voice, someone outstanding with natural class.  She was with Cohn Bendit in '68 and she dyed his hair so he could cross the border without being recognised.  She made me laugh years ago when she had her child as she said she didn't realise she was expecting until she was at three months, then gave birth three months prematurely, so she was only pregnant for three months!  Sorry to go on, but just to explain a little who she was and her frank and open way of saying things.  Here she says how "Le fond de l'air est agréable" thanks to those who become rich by creating beauty.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xc0c8g_marie-france-pisier-le-fond-de-l-ai_fun

"Il me semble que tout le monde se fout qu'y ait des gens qui gagnent énormément d'argent. Je pense que si on demandait à la plupart des français, ils sont contents qu'y ait des grands couturiers, des joailliers, des machins, des belles façades, des tableaux qui font que le fond de l'air est agréable..." (Marie-France Pisier, comédienne, Ce soir ou jamais, 26 janvier 2010).

 

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That has little to do with the traders on the stock market.[:)]

I don't see them creating things of beauty.

It's time that greedy acquisition was seen as the ugly thing it is, and its rôle in forming attitudes which permeate across society acknowledged, and distinguished from the wealth that is created almost incidentally by artists.

I don't think that J.K Rowling's primary motive was making a fortune, but good luck to her: she has succeeded and the films of her books have created wealth for other people as well as her.

If envy is  'you have and  I want it now'  as said above, then is greed as in 'I have and I  see no reason to share to help anybody else' any better?

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The great thing about this thread is that everyone seems to be able to link the riots to their own particular hobby horse. Very easy to do when, of course, nobody has the faintest idea how it all blew up.

I blame it on the repeal of the Corn Laws. Never had these sort of greedfest riots when that was in force.

I also blame, in no particular order: The Tories, Labour, Thatcher, Blair, Jeremy Kyle, The Welfare State, Immigration, Emigration, Pollination and masturbation, the French, the Parents, Mao Tse Tung, that nasty woman who lived down the road with the funny eye, Tesco, Ryanair, the Euro, Caligula, Masterchef.

I may have left a few out.
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[quote user="JK"]The great thing about this thread is that everyone seems to be able to link the riots to their own particular hobby horse. Very easy to do when, of course, nobody has the faintest idea how it all blew up. I blame it on the repeal of the Corn Laws. Never had these sort of greedfest riots when that was in force. I also blame, in no particular order: The Tories, Labour, Thatcher, Blair, Jeremy Kyle, The Welfare State, Immigration, Emigration, Pollination and masturbation, the French, the Parents, Mao Tse Tung, that nasty woman who lived down the road with the funny eye, Tesco, Ryanair, the Euro, Caligula, Masterchef. I may have left a few out.[/quote]

Yes you have, yourself possibly?

 

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[quote user="JK"]The great thing about this thread is that everyone seems to be able to link the riots to their own particular hobby horse. Very easy to do when, of course, nobody has the faintest idea how it all blew up. I blame it on the repeal of the Corn Laws. Never had these sort of greedfest riots when that was in force. I also blame, in no particular order: The Tories, Labour, Thatcher, Blair, Jeremy Kyle, The Welfare State, Immigration, Emigration, Pollination and masturbation, the French, the Parents, Mao Tse Tung, that nasty woman who lived down the road with the funny eye, Tesco, Ryanair, the Euro, Caligula, Masterchef. I may have left a few out.[/quote]

Weather, you forgot the weather. All that time indoors when it's been raining recently has probably given them 'cabin fever'. [;-)] Now you see what I mean about blaming everyone and everything else. [:D]

Having watched a grown man cry, namely the chap who was interviewed in Croydon whilst a bulldozer knocked down all that remained of his family business that had survived two world wars perhaps they might consider using those they have arrested to rebuild what has been destroyed and clean the place up.

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They may not get a chance Norman.

Magistrates Courts have been sitting through the night and a great many guilty pleas, even for realatively low value items, are being referred to County Corts for sentencing since the maximum sentence from magistrates is six months bur from Crown Courts it's 10 years.

Edit: cross posting with Rh.

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[quote user="NormanH"] A sensible positive suggestion Quillan
Get them to build up something and they might have an investment in the area that they would be loathe to see spoiled
[/quote]

Actually although it might appear that I said it 'tongue in cheek' I also think it's a good idea. They pay society back for the damage plus the individuals. They could perhaps set up a camp say in a large local park with a fence round it and dormitories and 'army style' canteen for food. Work in the day and spend the night behind barbed wire sort of thing. They may then think twice about destroying something they have created, get paid (minus food and lodging) so not a drain on the social and those that have lost everything get back most if not all of what they have lost. The culprits would also finish with 'a trade', something people talked about earlier. I think most people, especially those directly effected, would consider this better justice than locking them up.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="NormanH"] A sensible positive suggestion Quillan
Get them to build up something and they might have an investment in the area that they would be loathe to see spoiled
[/quote]

Actually although it might appear that I said it 'tongue in cheek' I also think it's a good idea. They pay society back for the damage plus the individuals. They could perhaps set up a camp say in a large local park with a fence round it and dormitories and 'army style' canteen for food. Work in the day and spend the night behind barbed wire sort of thing. They may then think twice about destroying something they have created, get paid (minus food and lodging) so not a drain on the social and those that have lost everything get back most if not all of what they have lost. The culprits would also finish with 'a trade', something people talked about earlier. I think most people, especially those directly effected, would consider this better justice than locking them up.

[/quote]

A great idea. I remember Alec Guinness even tried to stop the bridge being destroyed by the allies in the film.

Why pay them? And with money from where?

Unfortunately I don't think there is any provision for this in UK law, and that there would be any chance of passing legislation for it. I can see headlines screaming slave labour.

As far as I remember the unions have always been completely opposed to any form of cheap labour "stealing" jobs.

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[quote user="Russethouse"] I think I heard that offenders are not being sentenced in the magistrates court but will go to Crown Court where harsher punishment can be meted out[/quote]

 HMP  Port Stanley ...... Now would that not be a great construction project ?. Overseen by the Royal Engineers they could build it themselves tin huts and  wire fencing  .... It would provide employment for Falklanders  trained  to oversee them while they repaired the  bad island roads with the rock they have to smash up. .........Oh just a minute ...I forgot ...   EU Human rights ....

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