Sometimes I realise I am p g in the wind

[cooperlola]

I don't know about pragmatic but I'm afraid that property values (rentable or otherwise) in France are and always were a total mystery to me.  I see houses which seem quite similar to ours in the notaire's window for double what we paid seven years ago and I KNOW that prices haven't risen much at all, and yet - as in the example quoted  - some rents seem very cheap for what you get.  It cannot all be optimism on the part of the sellers.[8-)]

[idun]

In the city I first moved to rents were horrendous. We left England paying a £70 a month mortgage on a small three bed semi and rents averaged around 2000ff a month for the cheapest awful places and up and up they went. In some ways I reckon that rents are in line with a couple on the SMIC with  a couple of kids to make that magic third of their income or there abouts.

Just my theory, but why not, people have to justify that their rent/loans do not come to a third of their income.

 

I must add that we were 'lucky' that a couple who had had a house built rented us their appt, mouldy and awful, but big and we got that for the grand sum of 1600ff a month, and that was as a favour to us and so we stayed until our house was built. So bad that I never ever used the kitchen. I'd wash up in the sink and everything else was done in the dining room ,even had my cooker in the dining room. And when I was up during the night feeding the baby I'd kill at least twenty silver fish, goodness knows what the neighbours below thought me tapping during the night. My were my first years in France 'interesting', I have never lived so badly in my life as then.

[Georgina]

Really whether or not I was paying the correct amount, nobody said anything was wrong when the old french boy lived here, that he was not paying enough!! So even though the property has not had any extension, I am hit with 132pc increase. Sorry, what i was paying or whether they had made a mistake, it was hardly getting away with anything. It smacks of shear incompetence and being completely innocent something which I have to pay 490 euros at Christmas and not 90!!! Yeah that is really fair, Merry Christmas bah humbug

[idun]

Where do you get your 132% from? Sounds to me like the increase is more than that.

 

[Chancer]

I ask again Georgina, have you filled out a form H1 in the last 2 years?

In my experience it takes about 18 months before the bills go up which should have given you some time to prepare.

It is the fact that you are paying by prelevement and the way that system works which has caught you by surprise, you pay your 10 instalments in advance before the bill is even prepared, when it is sent out any shortfall is deducted over the next 2 payments, unfortunately by giving them permission to make deductions they have you by the short and curlies.

I wont pay by prelevement so I would have less than a month just before Christmas to find the whole sum, but if I didnt have it or didnt want to pay it they could not take it from me immediately, it would take some time and I make sure that I never have more than €100 in my French bank account.

I sort of see where you are coming from in your first posting, if this were the UK and they had made a mistake, (your complete innocence being neither here not there), you would have been able to add the arrears to your next bill and pay it off over the year. However this is not the UK and it doesnt appear to be either incompetence or a mistake on their part, it may not be of much consolation at a time when you have to shell out more money but it would appear that for all the years you have been living in this property you have only paid 43% of the taxes that you should/would have paid had the previous owners have made the correctly declarations, in my book that would be something to celebrate and indeed for me it was.

[Georgina]

No it is 132 per cent. that is an incredible amount for a property that has not had an extension

[Georgina]

I filled in an H1 but the property basically had the same measurements as before, unless the previous owner did not tell the truth?. However I am going to do it again to make sure.

[suein56]

quote user="Georgina"I filled in an H1 but the property basically had the same measurements as before, unless the previous owner did not tell the truth?. /quote

Aah, that's the crux of the matter. As you are not privy to what was declared previously, then you have given an accurate appraisal of the property as it exists. That may not have been the case before. So the previous owner got away with it, and you have benefitted for a while but although it's not your fault that the bill has gone up ... you will have to pay.

Sue

[idun]

Chancer said: I wont pay by prelevement so I would have less than a month just before Christmas to find the whole sum, but if I didnt have it or didnt want to pay it they could not take it from me immediately, it would take some time and I make sure that I never have more than €100 in my French bank account.

 

But won’t the below apply. I have always been told that they will get their money one way or another.

 

Avis à tiers détenteur (ATD):

Procédure administrative (forme de saisie-attribution) permettant au Trésor public ou à l'Administration fiscale d'obtenir le blocage puis le règlement, une fois le délai de contestation de deux mois expiré, de sommes qui lui sont dues.
Ces sommes concernent les impôts, les pénalités et frais accessoires, ainsi que les frais dont le recouvrement est assuré par le Trésor. Soit  les contributions directes et TVA, les droits d'enregistrement, les contributions indirectes.

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="Georgina"]No it is 132 per cent. that is an incredible amount for a property that has not had an extension[/quote]

My property had not been extended, still hasnt, my H1 form showed 270m2 habitable area, the previous owners had declared 36!!

They were not actually being untruthfull, they had declared two bedrooms and one bathroom which was all that was available for their own use, the rest was hotel rooms, the bar, commercial kitchen, toilets, grenier, garage etc.

Thanks to them I saved a packet of money for 4 years, I kind of realised it when I learnt what others were paying hence my reluctance to fill out the H1, after my negotiations the fichier now shows a habitable area only slightly bigger than before, they said to me "bien sur, as and when you complete the apartments you will fill out a new H1 so we can re-assess the valeur locative", "bien sur" I replied with a smile.

Now should I forget to do so, when I finally sell the place I wont have any sympathy for the new owners if they winge after several years of profitting from reduced taxes that they have gone up and that its my fault [;-)]

[Chancer]

Yes Idun that is exactly what I meant, its all hypothetical anyway you do realise!!

If i did not have the money and/or preferred to spend it on drink food and christmas tat as many faignants do then using the procedure that you quote they would not be able to seize my money or block the account for a couple of months, the most they would get would be a hundred euros and the only inconvenience to me would be that I would have to pay my Free.fr subscription in another way, its the only reason I have kept the account active.

It is my morbid fear of having my money swiped as I have so often read about on this forum that made me stop using the french account.

[idun]

[:D] I do understand and that is why I never touch the taxe d'hab full refund we got for no good reason. And so it sleeps in it's account awaiting a reclamation.

[EuroTrashII]

(deleted - duplicate post)

[EuroTrashII]

Georgina, you can't assume that because there has been no extension there have been no changes to the property. The calculation is based not only on surface area but also what amenities the house has, especially bathrooms, washbasins etc. If it was an old boy who had lived there for donkeys years it is entirely possible that when he first moved in there was no bathroom, and when one was installed he never declared it, that is a very very common scenario, of course you have no way of knowing what has been declared and what hasn't unless the previous occupant chooses to tell you. Likewise if an outbuilding is converted into a habitable utility room it puts the taxes up.

Unfortunately it is like that in France, big tax bills turn up out of the blue on a regular basis, I take it you don't run a business here or you would have discovered that by now. So yes I can see why you feel aggrieved but taxes are quite scary here, everyone has problems paying their taxes. I'm sureyour neighbours do sympathise but they probably don't understand why you are making such a big issue out of it because it is something that happens all the time, for thousands rather than hundreds, and mostly people have to accept it. The government sends out bills and does not concern itself with how people are going to pay, they are expected to work that out for themselves. Because they don't give you any warning, what I do now is try and anticipate, for example last week I went to the tax office to see if they could tell me how much the business tax CFE is likely to go up next year. He couldn't but he had a guess and told me when to come back and ask again. That is why I suggested in an earlier post, you can find out in approx. September what percentage annual increase the commune has agreed for property taxes, then at least you are prepared a few months in advance of the bill landing.

No it's not fair but that's life, and it's only money after all. Love your house and enjoy Christmas.

[Georgina]

Well I sure would like to see what was submitted before and then I will feel better. I know the rest about unexpected bills, had many.

I think it is times like these we are caught between what we know we could do about it in England and what we can do here. I know je suis en france and I have to lump it, doesn't stop me having a rant to me fellow expats!!!! (:

[idun]

Eurotrash11 you've just reminded me.

Just after we got to France we got a demand from the government of say 2000ff or 3000ff that they wanted off everyone as a loan, just like that. We had to pay and frankly I never thought that we'd see it again, but they did pay us back several years later. So unexpected bills, yes, and that was a lot back then.

[EuroTrashII]

Hmm. Don't go shouting about that idun, it might give this govt ideas ...

Did you get any interest on it?

[idun]

it was a long time ago and I cannot remember. I do know we got it back though, which I thought was nigh on a miracle to be honest.

Anyway inspite of the very high interest rates at that time, the BNP managed to give us 0.05%, special savings rate so we could get a mortgage at 17%........ apparently quite normal. So interest, as we weren't really getting any, and if we had had any, I wouldn't have expected much.