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Sometimes I realise I am p g in the wind


Georgina
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I have been here several years now. recently my tax fonc went up 132%. Despite complaining I have been hit with a "well it has not been updated" and then despite paying monthly they hit me with 2 x 240e Nov and dec direct from my bank.

Now I am a fair minded person and when someone pays by monthly direct debit it would stand to reason that they do so because they cannot afford BIG BILLS. But despite my pleas I have been hit with the most ugliest nastiest weasel faced response to my protests. To my mind this is actually completely unreasonable bearing in mind my house is not a mansion and has had no major work to extend it save changing windows but this is what gets me, the french reaction is well move house, your house is bigger than mine sort of stuff and that it is not unreasonable for us to ask for whatever we want without ever having to justify it????

So the weasel faced woman said " perhaps you should reflect on how you are going to pay next year. Bearing in mind I had no idea and have no control as to whether the tax is updated, I have made no errors, this is totally the town's decision and according to them it is the town updating everyone's tax fonc, but so far my neighbours tell me they have not had that much increase. Anway I know I am wasting my breath

I hate it when people say this, I really do, but if this happened in England the bloody council would be shot. But there, I said it!!

Sorry for the rant.
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I totally sympathise. Around 9 years ago Gwynedd re-calculated all the council tax, ours went up astronomically and nobody shot the council. But that's Wales. As you say, maybe they would in England.

If you complain hhere they will get shirty because the woman at the counter cannot change your tax bill and she probably gets fed up being complained at. But if you ask nicely if you can have longer to pay, sometimes they say yes.

A lot of people have had nasty shocks with their taxes this year. Dont let it spoil your Christmas.
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Although the impots adjust the direct debit payments every year, it is based on that years figure, which is never enough come the next bills. So I started adjusting on line the amount we pay, never quite get back as much as I expect but more importantly we don't have to try and find a few hundred extra euros before christmas.
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I was going to suggest the same thing, Gardener.  Better still, put the amount in an easy access savings account each month (along with all your other tax bills which are paid in advance) and pay the lot at the end of the year.  You are only giving money to the taxman to use before you actually owe it to them and you might even make a tiny bit of interest! 
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I think, Georgina, that some places have had massive increases this year due to toxic debt (discussed elsewhere on this forum at great length some months ago) amongst other things, and French as well as British people in many areas have been hit by huge rises. It's not only those who pay monthly, but those who cough up just once a year, who have had to pay.  As Gardian says, the only way to guard against this for future years is to pay more than you currently do each month, or put the money aside regularly, as I said.  You pay in advance and the amount you pay is only ever an estimate of each  community's expenditure.  This year some places got it very badly wrong.

I'm sure you have not been singled out - what do your neighbours say?

EDIT : And don't forget to register to vote in local elections.  If your local representives are financially (or in any other way) incompetent, you have a way of fighting back.

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Without being too intrusive, could you possibly give us an indication of what real € values you are talking about?

As an aside OH and I are living in a rented house and have been since arriving in France in 2005. When we arrived house prices in our preferred area were stratospheric so we could not afford to buy at that point. Since then prices have come down but other costs have risen.

So, when we look round houses for sale, the estate agents often tell us - when prompted - that the taxe fonc would, bien sûr, be more for us after purchase, than for the present owners as they have done this and this to the house - obviously without informing the tax office.

We have learnt a lot in the past 6 years and one thing we do know is that taxe fonc today is not necessarily the taxe fonc of tomorrow. And also that some areas are still catching up from the last revaluation - 1972 was it ?

Sue
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" IT is like buying something in a shop only to be told that you have to pay more once you take it home and have used it for year. "

But why would it make it any better if they told you in the shop that the price had doubled, if it something you don't have any choice but to buy? In the UK you find out at the beginning of the year what the increase is and you have to start paying it straight away, so you get the shock when you find your first payment is double what it was last year. Here you get the shock when you get your bill, but in fact if you follow the local news you can find out much sooner. The rates are set by the conseil municipal over the summer and it is normally reported in the local papers what increase has been decided. Or you can ask the mayor if you really need to know in advance.
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All these years I have seen people saying on here that their annual bills are the same as our monthly fonc bill in France was. Our village had not one thing special, more like next to nothing and yet we had to pay a lot.

It was inevitable that these bills went up.

 

In the past you could go to the Mairie and look at the Taxe Fonc bills for everyone, so why don't you.

 

I think that you have forgotten that a lot of people in France rent. If they cannot afford where they live they have to move, quite simple and actually common sense. If any of us cannot afford where we live, then it isn't up to anyone else to 'keep' us is it?  So has as been said ask nicely if you can pay over several months, take in  your statements and proof  of income to prove that this will leave you in dire straights. You live in France and this is how things work in France.

 RH, it is the same 10 month thing in France too, but starting in January and then in the 11th and 12th months the extra is taken. For most of us, it was a little extra in November. It was the same with the monthly income tax too, for those who decided to pay monthly, the extra paid in Nov and Dec.

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[quote user="Georgina"]No I can t see that as a positive side, IT is like buying something in a shop only to be told that you have to pay more once you take it home and have used it for year. Are you french?[/quote]

I think from your first posting where you said "it has never been updated" that this is not an across the board raising of taxes for everyone (the toxic debt etc) rather a revaluation of some or all valeur locatives, were you asked to fill in a form H1?

If I am correct and it was a revaluation then you have indeed been getting away with it for years, probably more so than your neighbours if there bills have not risen as much.

I was in a similar situation, i was told that my taxes would go down if I filled out the H1 (which I was trying to avoid) after a declaration de travaux as my property was still listed as commercial, they (said that they) could not do the simulation until I had filled out the form, but it was a trick as once the figures were entered I could not witdraw the form, mt taxe d'habitation tripled so like you I was not a happy bunny but when i learnt that it was not backdated I consoled myself with the fact that I had already albeit unknowingly saved lots of money, I suppose its a glass full or empty type of thing.

If you think the revaluation is unfair especially with regard to similar properties you can challenge it, they dont like it, they may make it difficult, tell you it is impossible etc but if you persist you will be able to have the fichier revisited, in my case my taxes returned almost to their original level and I also got a minor reduction in taxes fonçieres. I believe that Pachapapa has also had some success doing the same.

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[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="Georgina"]No I can t see that as a positive side, IT is like buying something in a shop only to be told that you have to pay more once you take it home and have used it for year. Are you french?[/quote]

I think from your first posting where you said "it has never been updated" that this is not an across the board raising of taxes for everyone (the toxic debt etc) rather a revaluation of some or all valeur locatives, were you asked to fill in a form H1?

If I am correct and it was a revaluation then you have indeed been getting away with it for years, probably more so than your neighbours if there bills have not risen as much.

I was in a similar situation, i was told that my taxes would go down if I filled out the H1 (which I was trying to avoid) after a declaration de travaux as my property was still listed as commercial, they (said that they) could not do the simulation until I had filled out the form, but it was a trick as once the figures were entered I could not witdraw the form, mt taxe d'habitation tripled so like you I was not a happy bunny but when i learnt that it was not backdated I consoled myself with the fact that I had already albeit unknowingly saved lots of money, I suppose its a glass full or empty type of thing.

If you think the revaluation is unfair especially with regard to similar properties you can challenge it, they dont like it, they may make it difficult, tell you it is impossible etc but if you persist you will be able to have the fichier revisited, in my case my taxes returned almost to their original level and I also got a minor reduction in taxes fonçieres. I believe that Pachapapa has also had some success doing the same.

[/quote] Thanks this is really helpful. I will persist as 132 per cent rise is not acceptable or reasonable. If I knew I was ''getting away with it,'' total b ks I might be more amenable but really I think not. I was paying e40 a month before!!! Not nothing. I will look at bigger properties and ask why my TF is not comparable. I doubt that it will be somehow. This feels more like "mmmm think of a number''
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Georgina wrote:

I was paying e40 a month before!!! Not nothing. I will look at bigger properties and ask why my TF is not comparable. I doubt that it will be somehow. This feels more like "mmmm think of a number''

Well Georgina to adapt your phrase about p g in the wind, I'm about to P*** on your parade.If you have been paying 480 Euro per annum you are very lucky. Why should you think that your payments are not comparable with other peoples?  Apart from the fact that it appears that you have been a special case; as you have not been paying enough. It looks like the game is over and you have been brought into line, be thankful for the cheap years and welcome to the real world.[:D]

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I don't think that you can judge whether 40€ a month is correct or not unless you're in the same area with a similar property.  Ours is 400 a year for three rooms, plus two barns in an acre (can't remember the hectare equivalent) and was re-assessed when we moved in six years ago so I know it's right.
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[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="idun"]

Yours will be right then Coops, but 400€ a year isn't much.

[/quote]I agree it isn't much.  However, I only mentioned it because some posters are assuming that the amount Georgina was paying is impossible.  Not necessarily.

[/quote]

Nobody is assuming anything, just commenting on the information supplied   [:P]

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The OP may find the following links helpfull

LA DÉTERMINATION DE LA BASE D'IMPOSITION ET LE CALCUL DE LA TAXE

and

La taxe d'habitation

Our Taxe d'habitation is around 1,200 Euros per year, just a little under our Tax Froncier.

There seems to be a few 'calculators' around but I don't understand how they work although it seems it is a percentage of the value of the dwelling (as if it were being lived in) back in 1975(?). but that's having only a quick look. So there is information around, I would suggest and afternoon on Google and see what you can find out. There are also websites like www.taxe.com where you can find out the exact percentage for your commune. Good luck.

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In my experience the adjustment to a valeur locative or is is locatif?  Will affect the taxe d'habitation far more than the taxes fonçieres, to give an example when mine was increased the tax d'hab went up 300% but the taxes fonçieres only by 10% or so, ditto when I got the figure reduced although a reduction of 66% does not sound as impressive as a rise of 300% which perhaps should truly be expressed as 200%.

Georgina did you fill out a form H1? I assure you that its a complicated calculation based on the data from the form and they dont like to divulge the details (power trip?) but it is definitely not a case of picking a number, you will get not get anywhere basing your claim on "its not fair" or "you have made up the figure", you need to question the veracity of the information that they have used for the calcule, if it was supplied by yourself via the H1 all you can do is to pretend that you misunderstood the form and gave erroneous information, having weak French can help in this regard.

Was the €40 per month your prelevement? i.e. for both taxes and perhaps also the redevance audiovisuel? If so even with the increase €928 per year h is a lot less than anyone I know pays and I live in the poorest of areas, we do however get shafted by the community de communes and pay towards all the facilities of the main town that most of us either dont use or are not entitled to. In fact the commuen was swallowed up by the CDC before my time but I know there was massive opposition and after the deal was done all the local taxes went up steeply, perhaps this has happenen in your case?

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Yes, Q, I think much as our rates used to be way back in the UK, they are based roughly on rentable value.  A house very similar to ours nearby is rented by friends of ours for 400€ a month.  20% of the rent for both taxes (roughly what we pay) sounds fair enough to me.

As Chancer says (we crossed posts!) the actual calculations post H1 are very hard to fathom!

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