Death

[Cluzo]

Its funny this topic has come up as whilst we were away last week with OHs daughter the subject came up and she got very stroppy when I told her that if her Dad died in France I would get him cremated in France and brought back in a container. She expected me to get the body re-patreated ( sorry cant spell it ) . Im sure the cost would be horrendous .

So it  is on my agenda when we get back to France to make some enquiries as to what to do if it does happen ( OH and I have had a good laugh about sitting him in the back of the car and driving back through the tunnel) 

But it is a serious matter that we should do some research on .   It really does worry me at times as my OH isnt far off 80 and sometimes isnt too well .

We agree with other posters not to waste too much money on it .

But it is a good idea to let the family know our wishes ( cheap and cheerful)

[just john]

[quote user="Pommier"]I read somewhere that burial is more eco friendly than cremation. Is that true? I think I'd prefer one of those woodland burials where you're buried in a cardboard coffin with a tree planted on top, but are there such things in France, and are they dearer than the cheapest send-off? (and is cremation still the cheapest?) [/quote]

Having lost both my wife and daughter to Cancer, I have witnessed the trauma that having to write a will that you know will be enacted within a few months can cause, so mine is done. As for the funerals well they were mostly for the people left behind and I believe they should have the most say, but if it were down to me; . . .  so there I am in my willow casket with the JCB booked to dig out the hole for the pear tree on my own foreign field in France (assuming he can get deep enough through the limestone that is a few feet below the soil[Www]). . . is this possible, what arrangements are required for a burial on your own land?

ps I do like the idea of having the coffin placed at 45degrees to enable me to continue to enjoy the view[8-|]

[britgirl]

I am also guilty of not having made my wishes known, and I should know better. Having to second guess what the OH wanted was a bit of a minefield.

So for me, It'll have to be the simplest box, 'cos I'll be cremated.  I'll leave a choice of songs/readings that have some meaning to my children. I don't want any ostentatious floral tributes. I'd like to have the same number of single blooms as I have children and grandchildren. (Donations always welcome to the RNLI). Followed by a picnic either by the sea, or green field.

Best go and do some writing before it's too late.[:D]

[powerdesal]

An interesting comment that I read recently..................You burn your rubbish, you bury your treasure.

[cooperlola]

"Death might end a life, but for the survivor the relationship struggles on."  I heard that at the beginning of White Heat (if you're not watching it, btw, why not?) the other night.  The thing with funerals is that they really can help those left behind.  I remember my Dad's very well and how lovely it was talking to all his friends (over a hundred people made it to the crem') about him.  He left money to pay for it and what wasn't spent on the actual cremation, we spent on food and fizz at his favourite bar in Balham where we'd had many a great nosh with him.  We actually had a really good time - pity the guest of honour was missing though.

I'm not going to know what anybody does to me so I don't really care that much, I'd rather those left behind celebrate in their own way!  I think I can trust the o/h to make the right decisions as he knows I'm belief-free and cheap and cheerful in my approach to such things.  It would be nice to have my ashes scattered somewhere appropriate but I don't think that's possible in France so I'll just go where I'm chucked. 

If I had advanced notice of my demise then I think I'd have a massive party for all the mates I have all over the place whom I keep promising myself I'll go and see but rarely get around to.  A much better way to spend my hard-earned than on a fancy box.[B]

[NormanH]

As to ashes:

http://www.cendres-et-nature.com/reglementation-dispersion-des-cendres.html

A la demande de la personne ayant qualité pour pourvoir aux funérailles, les cendres sont en leur totalité :

soit conservées dans l'urne cinéraire, qui peut être inhumée dans une

sépulture ou déposée dans une case de columbarium ou scellée sur un

monument funéraire à l'intérieur d'un cimetière ou d'un site cinéraire

visé à l'article L. 2223-40 ;

soit dispersées dans un espace aménagé à cet effet d'un cimetière ou d'un site cinéraire visé à l'article L. 2223-40 ;

soit dispersées en pleine nature, sauf sur les voies publiques.

• Article L2223-18-3
  Créé par LOI n°2008-1350 du 19 décembre 2008 - art. 16

  En cas de dispersion des cendres en pleine nature, la personne ayant

  qualité pour pourvoir aux funérailles en fait la déclaration à la mairie
  de la commune du lieu de naissance du défunt. L'identité du défunt
  ainsi que la date et le lieu de dispersion de ses cendres sont inscrits
  sur un registre créé à cet effet.

Remember that Cremation isn't standard in France and you need to make your wishes clear in writing

[cooperlola]

Sadly, Norman, the Mulsanne Straight is definately a "voie publique".[:)]

 

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Sadly, Norman, the Mulsanne Straight is definately a "voie publique".[:)][/quote]

 

Bien, alors qui est d'empêcher quelqu'un d'épandage des cendres?[Www]

[Val_2]

Well as you know I have been through this recently and the cost was half of what it was for my cousin just to be cremated in the UK as against here in France. I can't bear all the religious hoo-ha and nor could my husband so we had an obsèques civile in the village hall here across the road from us and for which the mairie gave freely as normally you would pay a nominal charge. Everything was taken out of my hands by locals, the current and previous maires,good friends and my family - I just said yes or no but I did choose the music and we had a right old mixture but the favourite was Amazing Grace sang by Il Divo and ending with Who wants to Live forever by Queen as people paid their respects to me and placed rose petals on the coffin at the front. People got up and talked about my husband, my siblings spoke in french and english about the 36 years he had been part of their lives and how my parents could not come and all the time music by Enya played quietly in the background until a chosen piece like Bridge Over Trouble Waters,the one by Mike and the Mechanics about his father and a good old british favourite "I vow tothee my country" played by a military band. We chose all the music, put it on CD and the lady undertaker did the rest throughout the celebration. No religion or prayers anywhere, too hypocritical and not much good to my husband.

The crematorium was very strange, just our little party of 9 which included my son's best friend who also talked at the hall and our long standing friend from Paris who was very upset, nearly 23years of friendship ended like that! The coffin was placed in an alcove at the front with beautiful purple lights bathing it which changed through the spectrum after a while and took your mind of the music that was playing and the words spoken by the man at the front. We all went up one at a time to place more petals on the coffin and say goodbye and then we were asked if we wished to see the final commitment to the incinerator via a viewing window. My son and I did,my brother and BIL and our friend and we knew when that door closed behind the coffin it was drawing a line under the whole matter and it was over.

We were not allowed to have the ashes on the property, it was kept by the PF until two days later when we placed it in a little granite box in the columbarium in our village cemetary. The view from it is towards the house which helped too and we can place plants on the gravel in front when we wish. The cost for the columbarium is €95 for ten years renewable from then and for as many we wish to purchase and has room for two urns.

The cost of the actual crematorium process was exactly €500. The whole bill for collection of body from hospital, coffin,paperwork,newspaper announcements,obsèques,transport to crem which is a good 35mins away was just over €1600 - we paid more than £2000 in 1990 to bury MIL less than two miles from her home with just a hearse and one car!!

I'm putting my costs on here because people might think it costs thousands. It does if you use a fancy undertaking company. I used our very very popular village menuisier/pompes funèbres and the personal one to one family attitude was so heartwarming to us. The hall was packed by the way with just about the whole village and many local artisans and people from suppliers,clients and friends and neighbours. Just my local neighbours behind us collected over €100 for us to use to pay our bills and we got donations instead of flowers.

My husband was only just 56, had type 2 diabetes for just over a years since diagnosed and was working right upto the end. None of us knows when our time will come and I can't describe the pain of having my heart ripped in two.One thing stillupsets all of us and that is my children will not have their dad there whenthey marry or have their own kids, that hurts I can tell you!

Sorry to go on

[just john]

You don't need to apologise for going on Val 2, although my experience was in UK, it was just after our normal trip to France so I for one was interested in your detail, it is strange just how far the effects ripple out to the wider family.

[Rabbie]

Val, Thank you for that very moving description.

[Val_2]

I felt I had gone over the top when I re-read the posting on screen but then I thought, why not? So many threads at the moment on all the franglo forums asking about death in France and how the thought of it is sending people back to the UK to live and if I can shed some light on what happens and an idea of costs,it could put their minds at rest a bit easier. I can only ask why move back? If you are living in France,are settled,have sufficient income to feed you and pay the bills and generally love living here, why would anyone up sticks and return unless they are not in good health or very elderly to which I could understand as their families probably live in the UK.Leaving a home you shared with a family member now gone holds so many memories and I for one, could never leave as I have comfort in seeing things that remind me of him all the time and all the work he put into this place would be a waste of his life should I just up and sell. Death follows all of us wherever we may live, you can't escape it but by doing some research and reading posts such as mine, it could help if it does happen here to your family and you know what to expect as it is so different to the style of doing things in the UK. One thing I did not mention was that the coffin has to be sealed by the gendarmerie, in our case it was done at the big hospital in town where he died and that cost €20,but you have no choice. The death certificates are free, you get 15 copies all individually signed and are issued by the mairie where the death occurred,these are required by all the bodies that come into play like the bank,impôts,insurers etc and everything connected to the survivor and the deceased. You will also require in the case of the banks and insurance companies, an attestation from the hospital that the death was natural or suicide, no cause is ever given here.

There is also a bereavement payment of £2000 from the UK which I knew nothing about and which they offered to me when I rang to inform the pensions dept of my loss and to change their records regarding future pension payments etc.This is your right if you lived and paid your NI in the UK before leaving for France and it has been very handy I can tellyou, however you only have three months to apply from the date of the death and there are approx 20pages of questions to fill in. I refused to send originals of our birth and marriage certificates because of the cost of replacing them if lost and they accepted copies andyou also need to send a copy of the cremation certificate as well,which the PF supplies when the job is done. If you wish to transport ashes to the UK or elsewhere you must get permission for them to leave and at no time are ashes allowed to be kept on your property at all, the PF keeps them until you require them either to be interred,taken elsewhere or scattered with the proper permission in a designated spot by the dept.

As OH ran a business we had to go to the Chambre de Métiers and get a Certificate de Radiation/Cessation d'Entreprise and these now cost €40 for which you get four or five signed copies and the Impôts demand this to sign off the TVA registration.The business is closed from the date of the death and if like me, you are not a registered with the RSI Conjointe Collaborateur, you are not liable for anything to do with the business.If you are registered and work for the business then you can be held liable for any outstanding debts to be paid - something to think about!!

When one partner has died, the notaire has to come within a short time to value the property for the inheritance process to start. You are allowed to have a property to the value of €300,000 before tax kicks in and the same for inheritors, my two now own a quarter each which works out at something like a ceiling of €159,000 before tax hits them. Everything has to be taken into account and you have to sign a statement regarding overseas property,assets and bank accounts which all come under the french inheritance rules and are taxed accordingly. My friend who lost her husband got caught for nearly €17,000tax on some UK bank accounts he held under his name. Obviously things change all the time regarding inheritance issues but that is currently the gist of things,so beware as they will find you out should you try to hide anything. I can also recommend to anyone left widowed that they use the local Assistante Sociale to aid with all the forms and paperwork that follows a death and all the things that you may or may not be entitled to here.They do not live in your commune and are impartial and confidential so you can tell them anything. Mine has been invaluable and has got all my entitlements sorted here. If you held joint bank accounts make sure the title on the paperwork/cheque book is OU and not ET and you can continue to use the account although you have to apply for another card in your name but the cheque book is still fine to use with two names on it. If there is a vehicle in the name of the deceased, this is inheritance and must be re-registered to the survivor via the notaire and a new carte grise issued.It is possible I believe to have two names on a carte grise, so that may not be a bad idea to do and if you have expensive vehicles, they are taken into the valuation too along with all outbuildings that are used as rental properties or businesses.

Finally I would add to those who do not have one in France, get a will done asap because without it, you could be stuffed especially if you are not married and.....my notaire confirmed that a UK marriage certificate/contract actually protects us better here regarding liabilities etc than the french régimes.  Hope this posting helps to put some minds at rest.

[idun]

Val2, you have brought up many points in your post, which was not too long at all, neither of them were.

The first is that we left France because we had always planned to do so. There is no way that I would have wanted to be 'old' in France, at all. And I do not like the inheritence laws, which would also have had me fleeing too, even now with the changes.

My eldest son is a a good and nice person, his brother is not always, but the eldest is. And yet, the inheritence he got from his grandmother was spent by his awful fiancé, every last sou and then some and then she asked me for 6000€. He was in love and when she fluttered her eyelashes at him, nothing was too much trouble, ever.........until the money ran out. IF they had not split up and she was my belle fille, she would have been doing her utmost to get any money in the property after which ever of our son's parent's died first if we lived in France. I know in theory that they cannot, but, life can be made that hard that getting away from her could well have felt like a good option.

I do not think it is to be underestimated that one's own kids do not always have their parent's values, OR that their spouses will not be wicked and one's children will follow their spouse's lead. I saw enough of it in France and knew of nightmare stories.

Re staying put. I don't get that, I will live somewhere and make it comfortable, but be emotionally attached, well it has yet to happen and my thoughts and memories are in my brain about people........ and maybe most of 'our' things would move with me if I end up widowed and they may or may not end up being precious to me. But staying somewhere, not for me.  You are obviously happy doing it. I have seen men and women truly struggle and end up with no life for themselves apart from putting bread on their table in order to keep the family house for the kids, who may want it at some point, but I have yet to see one actually kept and not sold on as soon as the remaining parent has gone and in the old days, as soon as a parent had died. A good friend's MIL stayed in that house for 30 years alone for her kids, and she wanted her eldest son to live in it, it was sold ASAP and he bought a BMW, so much for her scrimping for all those years on the tiniest of incomes. Still another friend in France wants her MIL's house when she is gone, but we'll see if she actually does take it on......... and her MIL is too on the tiniest of incomes. That these properties should be sold and somewhere smaller, manageable and easy to run and heat would be a kinder option and maybe giving these MIL's money to enjoy would be nice.

Re funeral costs in the UK, well something I am going to look into. The £2000 is if one has died before reaching UK pension age, which is fair enough. Far smaller sums may be available upon the death of anyone older.

I like living in the UK and having wills drawn up and being in control. My kids automatically owning part of where I live is not for us, let them get it when we go and not have any 'interest' prior to that. The french way is not for me at all.

 

 

[Russethouse]

The facts about death benefits in the uk are here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Bereaved/DG_10018660

 My feeling is that people move back because they are afraid of being ill in France and not being able to make themselves understood and often they would like the support of relatives and friends, not only for them but for their partner afterward.

As for moving or staying in the house, I suspect that after a while you realise that you don't need things or possessions to remind you of your loved one, nor would your loved one want you to stay somewhere unless it was right for you, but everyone is different.

[cooperlola]

Not only really useful posts, Val, but heartfelt.  Thanks for doing that.  Certainly the costs don't seem at all scary.

I think my o/h would really struggle with the language thus I've got a policy to deal with the admin' side of the thing, as opposed to the costs.

Next thing on my list of stuff to do is to see if there's somewhere within the private bits of the circuit where I could be chucked.[:)]

[Val_2]

Do you know I have just realised you live in the dept where my dog was born, south of Le Mans to  a specialist breeder. It was just under 1000kms we did from here to collect him and return again that frosty december in 2007.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Val_2"]Do you know I have just realised you live in the dept where my dog was born, south of Le Mans to  a specialist breeder. It was just under 1000kms we did from here to collect him and return again that frosty december in 2007.[/quote]I certainly prefer him to your previous avatar, Val.[:)]

[Gardian]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Next thing on my list of stuff to do is to see if there's somewhere within the private bits of the circuit where I could be chucked.[:)]

[/quote]

Prestbury?? [:D]

[Val_2]

A friend who died was a head engineer for part of the F1technical scene and his widow wanted to scatter the ashes at Silverstone(not on the track but somewhere out of the way on the site) his favourite place of work but it was rejected due to stupid health and safety regs

[just john]

[quote user="Val_2"]  stupid health and safety regs[/quote]

Some rules beggar belief, an some are there to be broken (en france . . . ignored)