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Previous Owner Lied - what can we do?


Fiona
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My boyfriend and I recently bought a house in the Alsace region of France.   We bought it through an agency and only spoke to the owner once when we collected the keys.   Since we moved in there has been disaster after disaster.   We had a fireplace in the living which was not only installed completely the wrong way but the surround (la hotte) was wooden.   We assumed that underneath the decorative wood was metal or bricks or something non-flammable.   It was in fact chipboard.   We lit a fire and sometime later were fighting with flames and smoke and basically just trying to save the house!   It cost us 9000€ to pull down the old fireplace and install a new one.   Our insurance company did not pay.

Then our cellar started flooding everytime it rained - up to ankles in rancid smelling water 3 times a week is really unpleasant.   We called plumbers but they refused to come out because our problem was caused by rain - still don't understand that one.   Eventually we got the water board to come out - they were stumped and had no idea what was the problem.   Except that maybe we had a "bac à graisse" (grease tank).   We called the previous owner who told us that in fact there was a "bac à graisse" but that he had bypassed it so that could not be the problem.   He told us where it was, we started digging and almost passed out with the smell.   It was so full and blocked and clearly the root of the problem.   It cost us 350€ to get it emptied and cleaned.   We have since dug up all of the pipework in the garden and found out that he has lied to us - all of the water from the house goes into the tank!   We also found out "by accident" that we have a septic tank in the garden.   Our electrics are so messed up that we might have to redo the house - for instance everytime we switch on the hall lights the doorbell rings, everytime we switch on the dishwasher the whole house trips out!!

Sorry for being so long-winded (guess I need to vent).

Basically what I'm asking is, is the previous owner under any legal obligation to inform us about septic tanks, bac à graisse, wooden fireplaces, electric problems, etc.........Even on the plans of our house there is no information about the septic tank, nor the bac à graisse.   Who should I contact to help - the notaire??

Thank you for any help!

Fiona

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Fiona,

We also had numerous problems with our house after we moved in. Including with the electrics being ripped out in the kitchen and one of the bedrooms(the agents apparently caught the previous owner doing it) but they failed to inform us until after we had signed. Also there was no earth and when EDF came to do the reading and re-connection they were horrified and told us not to use anything until we had had an electrican out to firstly put an earth rod in and make sure the electrics were safe. When we questioned the agents we were basically told we had bought an old house and it was bought as seen and we should expect problems. The thing was we befriend one of the employees of the agency and felt that we couldn't cause too much of a stink as we were worried she would lose her job (her boss was a right stinker!!). Also the previous owner had no money left from the sale as he had had numerous debts to pay off, so there was no point in trying to sue him!!!

It has cost us a fortune to sort out the problems we have had so know just how you feel.

Hopefully someone on here will be able to give you some sound advice to what you could do.

In the meantime, keep your chin up and I hope everything works out for you.

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Believe it or not having a septic tank and grease trap is a good thing. Many country houses don't even have that standard of sanitation.They just need to be emptied now and again, the grease trap yearly, the septic tank less often.Ask at the EDF about the electrics problem . Sorry don't know the technical terms but they can alter your meter so that the electrics don't cut out on overload. It's all part of settling in in France. Good luck. Pat.

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There are laws against selling propery with 'vices cachés' - that's to say, problems which the seller knew about and hid, or lied about. I think you can sue for the cost of 'making good' - but I don't know the details in full - you will have to take legal advice. But it's definitely worth finding out.

Malcolm

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We had a similar problem with a vice cache and because we have legal cover with our house insurance we used that to sue the previous owner.

Without that sort of cover it will be very long winded and expensive to take the case to court yourself - we're still waiting for the paperwork on the settlement which the independant expert and previous owners agreed in early February so even using the vice cache can be long winded, so far16 months and nowhere near conclusion.

As the expert hasn't got his act together, we're now asking the insurance company whether we can sue the previous owners outright - don't worry is they don't have the money, if you feel strongly enough about it, go for it anyway.

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Where exactly did the previous owner lie to you if you never spoke to him until you picked up the keys?

It sounds like you have bought an old house and may, like many others, be spending money on it for some time.

As an example. Say you were advised by your mechanic to sell your aged car because it was getting unreliable and that you would most likely have to pay say 350 Euros for a new clutch (amongst other things) within the next year.

You then sold it at a reasonable price for its age and condition and bought a newer model.

How sympathetic would you be if the new owner complained that he had been charged 2500 Euros by an unscrupulous garage to replace the clutch, and now he has found that when it rains the boot carpet is damp?

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So you have purchased a house with................

A Decorative rather than a functional fireplace.

With Dodgy drains.

With Dodgy electrics.

Sounds like a typical French house with no suggestion of "lies"

Was any kind of warranty given to suggest that everything was hunky dory? , or did you purchase a house "as is" ? , which is often  a clause in included in French property sales.

It might by hard to swallow, but welcome to the world of property purchases in France.

 

 

 

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You will need legal advice on what the seller was required to disclose as opposed to the normal "caveat emptor" - let the buyer beware. The Notaire would be a good starting point - he has been paid after all for making sure that the transaction was dealt with correctly.

I suspect, though, that the answer may be that you had an opportunity to obtain your own survey which should have picked up major faults. If you did not take advantage of that opportunity, you have accepted the risk and have bought the property "warts and all".

In the UK, for example, few people would buy an old place without having a full survey (which a mortgagee would insist on anyway if a loan was necessary). If problems then arise which should have been picked up by the surveyor, you claim from him for his negligence. I imagine a similar situation arises in France. 

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[quote user="Alan Zoff"]

 

In the UK, for example, few people would buy an old place without having a full survey (which a mortgagee would insist on anyway if a loan was necessary). . 

[/quote]

Sorry Alan, in the UK only a small minority of buyers have a full survey done. Also, the lenders don't require this and only ask for a valuation survey, which is very perfunctory. Apart from this, I agree with what you said; you take your chances with buying an old property without having a survey done (although I've bought 12 and never bothered!).

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[quote user="Fiona"]

 

 

Basically what I'm asking is, is the previous owner under any legal obligation to inform us about septic tanks, bac à graisse, wooden fireplaces, electric problems, etc.........Even on the plans of our house there is no information about the septic tank, nor the bac à graisse.   Who should I contact to help - the notaire??

 

 

[/quote]

 

If it was in your contract that the house was on mains drainage (tout a l'egout) then I would imagine that you might have a case. If you assumed this in a rural property then it's likely your mistake. I rather agree with other posters that dodgy electrics and plumbing are par for the course in France. Not being unsympathetic, just realistic.

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Sorry, should have added earlier that you have to prove that the previous owner either lied - i.e. told you a complete untruth and then there must be independant witnesses to prove what he/she said - or that as a non-expert yourself, you could not have reasonably known about the problem.  If you hadn't met him/her previously, you wont be able to use the 'lied by ommission' argument, it is them caveat emptor.

But you have to have a PROBLEM, something that the lawyers/notaire can get their teeth into - just having dodgy electrics and plumbing isn't enough though our legal support team used dodgy plumbing to back up our case for the flood. 

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More Lambs to Slaughter.....

What aspiring expats need to kno is that even if there are arcane and archaic laws pertaining to "lying", poor information, economy with the truth, colorful assertions or optimistic predictions, any attempts to pursue the said felons thru the French courts will take time, lots of money and even if you did win, a sorely depleted bank balance.

My humble advice is to up your common-sense quotient, use your eyes, ask lots of questions and never, entirely, trust anyone and be prepared to walk away from any deal if you have the slightest whiff of skullduggery. In France, think third-world country and act accordingly.

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It really depends on when you spoke to the vendor whilst picking up the keys, if it was while viewing the house than any representations made could perhaps be construed to be lies, but how good is your French, are you sure that you completely understood the conversation?

If the conversation was on the moving in day then whatever the vendor said, then, or subsequently is of no consequence.

Is this the first house that you have ever bought perhaps?

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Thanks to everyone for replying to my post.

I just want to make a few things clearer after some

remarks.   I have been living in France for 10 years and

speak fluent French.   The house we bought is not an old

house (20 years old) and its not in the country (only 6km from Basel,

Switzerland).   The owner has lied to me on two occassions,

firstly it is written in my contract "tout à l'egout" which is clearly

not true since we use the bac à graisse.   When I called the

owner (after the 5th flood) he told me that the house no longer used it

since he had bypassed it years ago - another lie!!    We

suffered another 3 floods before digging this thing up to double

check.   Just to find out that yes we use it and oh yes its

full.

I also understand that plumbing problems happen - especially in

France.   However, what I am annoyed at is that if he had

informed us of the bac à graisse then we would have known to check it

out and get it cleaned if necessary and avoided the floods.  

Secondly, I was more concerned about the wooden fireplace than anything

else, we were very close to losing our house that day, the wooden beams

in the living room had started to smoulder and the ceiling was starting

to flame when we managed to put it out!   It was months ago

now and we can still smell the smoke (even after professional cleaning).

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Where exactly did the previous owner lie to you if you never spoke to him until you picked up the keys?

--- He lied because the contract stated "tout à l'egout" which it

clearly is not.   And when I called and asked him if he was

sure he told me that there was a bac à graisse but we did not use it

since he bypassed it years ago.   Another lie.  

Since we have cleaned it I can see the water running in to it and

running out!

It sounds like you have bought an old house and may, like many others, be spending money on it for some time.

--- This is not an old house, its only 20 years old.

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Fiona

I was going through the same problem but in my case my notaire is picking up the case as the contract stated like yours that it was "tout a l'egouts" but is very definately on a "fosse septique". She knows therefore that the sellers lied and will be dealing with it at a notary level.

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I think that you should go back to your notaire.  As you speak (and write?) fluent French, I would start with a letter to the notaire and follow it up with a telephone call.

Did you share a notaire with the vendors?

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  • 2 weeks later...

We went to see our notaire for other matters on Friday and discussed this situation.   Unfortunately, for the bac à graisse he has advised us to let it drop.   He insists that it would be difficult to bring a case against him.   However, for the wooden fireplace he says that we have a very strong case and should first of send a letter directly from us (no lawyers involved) to test the water.   If this does not prove to be fruitful then he can follow it up with an official letter.  

The good thing is that we did have the same notaire as the vendors so it might be easier to get something sorted out.

 

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