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Celebrating the Diamond Jubilee


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I'm also surprised at how angry some people seem to be - just calm down, if you don't want a party it isn't compulsory!

Better add my crudentials: full time in France since 2002 but still struggle sometimes with the language (but then again maybe that's because I'm a Brummie!) 

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[quote user="idun"]

I have to say that I don't quite understand the last bit of your post Just John. Well the bigotry bit.

 

Please explain.

 

I do not mind any of the other arguments I have heard. In fact some have left me smiling.

 

[/quote]

Definition of a Bigot:-

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Forget the ''hatred'' bit, there is no evidence of that on here. However, IMHO there is a tendency towards intolerance, particularly directed towards ''some'' Brits by other Brits.
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Having given some thought to this whilst doing the laundry, a mind numbing job but it gives you time to think, perhaps I didn't express myself properly in one of my posts.

People who live permanently in France and have done for some time often have a far wider and more deeper understanding of things in France but that does no mean they necessarily understand the French any more than anyone else. The type of knowledge I am referring to are the things that as a holiday home owner you might not experienced in full like death, health care, tax, social contributions etc, please note the word might in my comment. There is no snobbery intended in such a comment, it just logical.

Likewise, and you do come across one or two but not many thankfully, you get some holiday home owners who feel that just because they visit two or three times a year for a couple of weeks at a time they are virtually French. I should hasten to add that I don't think anyone in this forum would every think or behave in that way.

I mentioned street party because there are a group of Brits in my local town who want to hold such an event. I believe that in general and like Bettys American friends if they want to have a bit of a 'bash' in their garden and invite their friends all well a good but to try and get a road completely closed off for this celebration (which incidentally will cause some disruption to some peoples lives of any nationality) is just not on.

I have always admitted I slaughter the French language but am happy that my French friends correct me and help me pronounce words better. In our area the second language is either Spanish or Catalan, very few people speak English as second language. Some of the permanent residents and some of the holiday home owners still do not, or even make an effort to, speak French. They seem to think if you shout loud enough the locals will understand them and it's really embarrassing if your around when this happens. When I have stepped in to try and translate I have been met with such comments as "well it's about time these people learnt English", I can't be done with such comments so I don't bother to help now. On the other had there are a few permanent and holiday home owners who have gone to great lengths to learn the language and speak it much better than I (which peas me off sometimes because they are so lucky to have this gift of picking up languages quickly and yes I am jealous).

I certainly don't consider myself to be French nor would I presume to speak on their behalf, they can do that themselves, but when they complain about the English I do disassociate myself from that group. They make comments about the Belgians as well, the English are outnumbered three to one by them down here, and if I were Belgian I would do the same thing. If I were to consider myself anything these days it would be European first and English second but that's just me and again I do not speak for anyone else.

I think that's all I have to say on the subject and hope it clears up any issues that people may have had with my posts on this matter.

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I admit that I do find some things intolerable. It isn't just brits to brits in my case. Anyone moving voluntarily to be a full time resident in any country should learn the local language if they don't already know it. I'm not talking about contract workers here, I mean taking up residence.

Would that anyone could live in a cave and in total isolation, but who can? There is always something to sort out and it's either require the locals to speak your language, or put upon someone else to translate for you, be it a neighbour or even spouse. What if someone ends up in hospital or in a home. Ressources should never be used on someone too lazy, or indifferent to learn the language of where they chose to live.

I can think of no reason on earth why anyone would not be polite and respectful enough to not learn and this is from me who speaks awful french and has no talent whatsoever for language, my own included. So Pommier, I do understand, for some of us it is a struggle, but we plod along and get there making many gaffs along the way.

I'm not one for a fuss. I'm more an 'any day is a good day' for having friends or family round or a party. Some friends usually have a do at the end of summer, for no particular reason but are having it for the Jubilee this year. I'll go, as I'll see lots of lovely people I haven't seen for a while, but I'm not  bothered about the Jubilee. I didn't watch the royal wedding either.

 

I went to two expat do's when I first got to France. My brain really enjoyed the first as it was lovely just hearing the babble of english from everyone, as I would come back from french do's and my brain would hurt trying to catch any french at all. And yet, I didn't meet anyone I wanted to keep in touch with. The next do was different. It was about a year later and I had got to grips with quite a lot of french by then. I didn't enjoy that do at all. The constant moaning about the french and what was happening in England and 'safe' english sockets was not my cup of tea, at all. At least they never mentioned 'quality of life' in France. I will never get that to the end of my days. I never saw such stressed people as when I moved to France. I lived in a city and people had long hard days.

Still those people at the expat do's were  deciding factor as to where we wanted to live and it was far from english enclaves. Why would I mix on an everyday level with my fellow brits when I lived in France? I found this board when I'd been there almost 20 years, so why not come on here. It wasn't as if I didn't have a life in France too, I did.

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[quote user="powerdesal"] [quote user="idun"]

I have to say that I don't quite understand the last bit of your post Just John. Well the bigotry bit. - Please explain.

[/quote] Definition of a Bigot:- a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with intolerance.
However, IMHO there is a tendency towards intolerance, particularly directed towards ''some'' Brits by other Brits.[/quote]

The above quotes answer queries on my post I hope, which wasn't directed at anyone specifically nor to cause offence, except to say that IMHO there is, as powerdesal comments, running through this and other threads negative comments directed to ''some'' Brits by other Brits. Irrespective of the French attitude to some Brits (which seems to run from love to hate), this is an english forum set up to assist understanding of the requirements of living in France rather than sniping.
For myself I didn't come to France to escape other Brits, nor to be a born again Frenchman, but just to enjoy France, the French, and my maison secondaire. I didn't learn much Mandarin or Cantonese while working in China, and I must admit my schoolboy French is not brilliant but another hobby challenge when I have time, I have got by so far, thanks be to t'internet and the likes of this forum.

 

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I've hesitated joining in this thread, as I'm quite a Royalist, will never be anything but British, but also a Francophile (I do believe it is possible to be both).  I came to France because I like the French (in general rather than the particular) and I like France.  But I still do not understand their mentality, though I am a member of several French associations, and involved with one of them at quite a high level.

When we came to France, we said we did not want to associate with "ex-pat groupings", but inevitably our coterie involves both English and French speakers / friends.  However, out of the many English we come into contact with, we are only extremely friendly with a few couples, and several of those speak French fluently .... par hasard.   We are also lucky that three of our very best French friends also speak English fluently.

We will be attending a celebration jubilee picnic next week - but this replaces the annual picnic of my Anglo-French women's group which is usually held towards the end of June.  It is looked upn by both the English and the French as a good chance to celebrate - and yes, the French love the Royal family, especially the Queen, too ..... but we are in a park and not the street .....

There is of course no reason why streets should not be closed for an event, once the proper permissions have been given - as example, just look at all the vide greniers happening - they take over the whole town  much more than a street party would - but, hey, they're French - so that's all right - isn't it!

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I think what people have objected to is the underlying message that should your friends be other English you are somehow inferior, and those who mix more with the French are superior in someway.....frankly I see it more as being different.....

Luckily my trips to France are normally pottery related and having a common interest we somehow manage to get along......further more when I go to the US its usually to join a group of people with similar interests - of course this is a standard conversational fallback - you know for sure you have something in common, later you get to know some people better and might discover other interests you share, but that common ground gets you started...maybe its the same for Brits in France - they reach for the common ground, the ups and down of being British and living in France,  and then pick and choose those they want to continue being friendly with. I think to lump all Brits together in a derogatory manner is pretty sad - and who knows what opportunities might be missed!

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Just John I take it that you didn't move to China and it was for work. There has to be limits.

You raise an interesting point about the point of this forum. I'm wondering what it is. Your description slightly confuses me, something that is not hard to do. So who is supposed to 'assist understanding of the requirements of living in France'?

I can see why second home owners would need such assistance, but residents? Well there are the oddest of things that crop up, and we miss new laws or things in the news, but without this board, believe me, any french speaking resident could find out anything they wanted without the board. I know, I've done it. And frankly we don't need superlative french to do such things.

I am trying to work out my feelings towards the sort of people who are french residents that Quillan has mentioned. And the truth is that I feel deeply ashamed and I feel like I am a better person than they are. If that means that I have a feeling of superiority, so be it, but I will not change my feeling that I am better than them.

And I'm still trying to work out who is there for the second home owners anyway? No one is paid and any information offered should ALWAYS be checked on properly. I see it being a great disadvantage for second home owners to have no french at all and yet I'm sure that there are quite a few who do not.

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 I wonder how many people really have no French at all ? My French is truly apalling, but even I make an effort and have managed to get by on my numerous trips....how I would cope with officialdom, goodness only knows.....

As for feeling superior, well, you may, but of course the person you are feeling superior too may have a talent or aspect to their life which makes them feel superior to you too...I prefer the term 'different'[:)]

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idun said-''I am trying to work out my feelings towards the sort of people who are french residents that Quillan has mentioned. And the truth is that I feel deeply ashamed and I feel like I am a better person than they are. If that means that I have a feeling of superiority, so be it, but I will not change my feeling that I am better than them.''-----------Why then I ask myself do you even bother to come onto the forum? To gloat? To prove you are better than others who struggle with the language? If you so despise people who are struggling to make sense and trying hard to learn French and to acclimitise to a new way of life (and I'm sorry if you didn't mean that but that's how it comes across) why even bother to log on and answer questions? Would you feel superior to immigrants -if you were in the UK -who are struggling to fit into British way of life or do you only despise those who are struggling to do the same in France?-I think the comment made by Just John about bigot fits perfectly after that comment you made!!
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I really had no french when I moved to France, unless you think 'oui, merci, oeuf, pleut' count and are in any way useful. I couldn't even say eggs in french, just one egg. And pleut, well that means more than rain. So I believe that some people can have no french when they move to France.

 

IF anyone moves to France, to be a full time resident, then in simple terms, it is very bad manners to not be able communicate with the locals. Or as I am thinking, lazy and pig ignorant, and how full of themselves have they got to be to think like that. But why don't they, and I'm talking about more than just buying bread or a couple of slices of ham. Is it because they believe that everyone speaks english and that 'they' will make the locals understand. I don't get it.

 

What I do know is that I am not intersted in anyone with that mentality, our core values are so far apart that it really would not be worth my time getting to know them, no matter their talent. I have plenty of talented people in my life, and as I have no talents to speak of, there are other reasons why we are friends........ Also, if I did befriend such people, I would likely be 'used' by them because of their choice to not learn french. And I have a feeling that I could well be looked down on for 'going native' [:D] and anyway, I have more or less been accused of that some years ago, a really hilarious idea!

 

 

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[quote user="Mac"]idun said-''I am trying to work out my feelings towards the sort of people who are french residents that Quillan has mentioned. And the truth is that I feel deeply ashamed and I feel like I am a better person than they are. If that means that I have a feeling of superiority, so be it, but I will not change my feeling that I am better than them.''-----------Why then I ask myself do you even bother to come onto the forum? To gloat? To prove you are better than others who struggle with the language? If you so despise people who are struggling to make sense and trying hard to learn French and to acclimitise to a new way of life (and I'm sorry if you didn't mean that but that's how it comes across) why even bother to log on and answer questions? Would you feel superior to immigrants -if you were in the UK -who are struggling to fit into British way of life or do you only despise those who are struggling to do the same in France?-I think the comment made by Just John about bigot fits perfectly after that comment you made!![/quote]

 

It is regretable that you are so annoyed about me, but as I have said, I arrived in France for an adventure, with no french and no internet and no home phone. It is not to gloat when I say that, it is because if I can do it with my very little brain, then absolutely anyone can, they just have to get on with it and do it and not bleat and moan or be rude to french people. 

Struggle, you really have not heard me speak french, vache espagnole me, really am. I have no 'ear' which does not help. I know it is hard to learn, I really am one person who understands that completely, but it being hard is no excuse to not keep trying. And I don't think that the people we are talking about are trying to make sense of anything other than make France a little Britain, which it is not and I hope never will be.

And anyone moving to Britain or Germany or Spain or anywhere, well, learn the local language, or why the hell have you moved there in the first place. Other than a work transfer, which I keep saying is quite different, unless the intent is on becoming permanent resident. How can you make sense of a country and it's people without understanding what they are saying? I could not have done, maybe that is a lack on my part, but I couldn't.  And in spite of understanding what people say, there are things french, that I will never 'get', I suppose because they are part of the french soul, and I'm not french.

Mac, if you are trying to learn french and not putting on other people whilst you get on with your life, why on earth would you be worried about those that don't make an effort OR how I feel about them. I am being honest. What you rather me do, say nothing and just think it. Well there is that old saying, if you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing......... however, shouting in english at french people to get served, well to be polite, that is worse than, not nice.

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Here's the thing, for me, anyway. I was given few gifts in life, but it just so happens that the one I did get, and treasure most, was a gift for languages. Well, one language, anyway, apart from my native one. So, whether I'm one of the few or the many, I don't really care, but I speak French. It's kind of a "so what", of course. Some are able to do complex mathematical and algebraic calculations, and to me that's a bridge too far. I try with maths, I manage more than adequately, and that's OK. But then again, I could be anywhere in the world and still need to do basic maths, so that's not quite the same issue as with languages. I don't live in France, though. I have, but I don't any more. It's been over 30 years since I returned, so what I know about the machinations of modern-day France certainly doesn't match up to the knowledge amassed by many brilliant people on this forum.

As for the snobbery,or whatever you might want to call it, I think there are a few points to consider.

Firstly, in your own country, with your fellow countrymen, there are certainly individuals or groups with whom you will have no desire to associate. Fortunately, in a population of some 7 million plus in London, my desires and preferences are insignificant, and neither I nor the people I want to meet or avoid even give a thought to it.

When you're abroad, however, there are those who stick out by accident: in this case a simple accident of birth and ability with the language, and then there are those who stick out by choice. The former may not wish to draw any sort of attention to themselves, but they might. The latter again fall into a number of different categories.

On forums like this, the ones who tend to be singled out for special derision are the ones who either cling too much (and how much IS "too much"?) to their Britishness, and those who simply get on with their lives and pay no heed to the opinions of others, and then there are those who, whilst not necessarily "born again French " (I like that expression!) have adopted a sort of superiority complex.

The first group generally aren't out to cause trouble, but just like to maintain a feeling of their roots and culture. Some can be a PITA, many left the UK for dubious reasons. A fair proportion have either made little attempt, or in fairness, little progress, with the language. As a language teacher, I am well aware that for some, even great effort can produce very little in the way of tangible result.

The middle group probably have no time even for forums like this. They've moved to France, and for better or worse are getting on with it.

The latter group also contains some extremes. I've met a few. And I'm hard pressed to see, on the sliding scale of "people we'd all love to avoid" any real difference between some of the less-well-integrated (or non-permanent residents) and some of those types we come across who wax lyrical about:

a) How long they've been in France

b) How much they know about France and all things French

c) How well they speak the language

d) How little they miss the UK and everything in it

e) How much they abhor having to share a space with anyone from any of the other groups

f) How ALL their friends are French ( I was once in a resto with friends, and a lone Englishwoman came in. The waiter engaged her in a conversation and mentioned that we - the only other diners - were also Brits. She very disparagingly started telling him that she didn't mix with other Brits, and that ALL her friends were French, to which one of my group said, sotto voce, "She must be extremely popular, then. Wonder why she's here alone?")

and, last but not least

g) How anyone who can't beat them in a P****ing contest on points a) to f) above is an inferior being.

Given the choice, I sometimes think I'd prefer being randomly thrown together for an evening with one of the earlier groups than someone who wants to bore me rigid with their superior knowledge. But, you know....if those in the latter group find themselves being asked for help/advice/favours or whatever, they should really ask themselves how that happens. If they didn't go round bragging about how much they do/can do/have done and how well connected they are, then maybe no-one would take any notice of them or ask them for help or advice.

Nailing my colours to the mast, as I have, I should also add a caveat or two. I have nothing but the greatest respect, and in some cases, admiration, for the vast majority of the posters on this forum. None of my comments above were written with the aim of slighting anyone here, specifically or individually. I'm as guilty as anyone of the odd sweeping generalisation, but I think it's wise sometimes to look at such statements again, and wonder whether one has effectively just said "They're all out of step except me"...

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''I think what people have objected to is the underlying message that should your friends be other English you are somehow inferior, and those who mix more with the French are superior in someway.....frankly I see it more as being different.....''

As per RH's comment above:- That is the impression I have certainly gained over the years of membership of this forum. In the past there was a long spell of comments about 'integration' and the perceived need to be seen to embrace all things French. That attitude seems to have died away, or at least the comments have - thankfully.

As with JJ, we did not come to France to escape anything, neither did we choose France because we love ''The French''. We like France, we also like England, Wales, Germany and Italy. France has it's frustrations but every other country that I have lived in has frustrations also, including England. The main difference is of course the frustrations outside England are compounded by being in a different language.

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Well, well, well.  What a can of worms I seem to have opened.

I only posted because I am at a loose end on Jubilee Weekend and I was hoping that perhaps there might be some public celebrations that I could join in.  I am likely to be far away from home that weekend as my husband is officiating at a sports function in Eymet.  I haven't decided yet whether to travle with him to the Dordogne but if there was a Jubilee celebration, that might tip the balnace.

I didn't expect such a debate that has been waged on this thread.

I have been full time in France for many years, bringing up a number of children here, speak French more fluently than most of my British friends and am integrated into the area (e.g. school governor).  But I still feel British (after all, I am British) and would love to celebrate the Jubilee with other Brits or French.

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[quote user="Kitty"]

I have been full time in France for many years, bringing up a number of children here, speak French more fluently than most of my British friends and am integrated into the area (e.g. school governor).  But I still feel British (after all, I am British) and would love to celebrate the Jubilee with other Brits or French.

[/quote]

ROFL!! Good on you, Kitty. Proof positive that it's not the exclusive preserve of the part-time unintegrated!

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Well;  having been accused on this forum by two of the "Ex-pat integrated Brits" of being a second home owner who's opinions on matters concerning France are of no consequence. I'd just like to say if it's alright with you two,  I've been invited to a Jubilee celebration for our majesty the Queen that will take part in France, and I will it enjoy in the same manner that I would in the UK by having a good time and celebrating a great occasion with my friends.
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[quote user="Kitty"]Well, well, well.  What a can of worms I seem to have opened.

 But I still feel British (after all, I am British) and would love to celebrate the Jubilee with other Brits or French.

[/quote]

What a great post Kitty, you should post more often! - 6 pages - 42 posts - 735 views; even if slight acerbic, vibrant discussion.
It has brought out a few serious points, pity sometimes it's not in the bar over an apero where the glint (steely or twinkle) in the eyes can be seen;
As Harry Hill says There's only one way to find out [:D]

 

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I can sing, I like to sing, I really love karaoke but the strange thing is they always make me wait till last to sing, strange that. [:(] If its a request night they normally ask me to sing "Far, Far Away", never did learn the lyrics.

 

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[quote user="Quillan"] I can sing, I like to sing, I really love karaoke but the strange thing is they always make me wait till last to sing, strange that. [:(] If its a request night they normally ask me to sing "Far, Far Away", never did learn the lyrics.

[/quote]

Good choice Q, here you are, one for the jubilee party, go for it! Far Far Away

I've seen the yellow lights go down the Mississippi
I've seen the bridges of the world and they're for real
I've had a red light on the wrist
Without me even gettin' kissed
It still seems so unreal

I've seen the morning in the mountains of Alaska
I've seen the sunset in the east and in the west
I've sang the glory that was Rome
And passed the hound dog singer's home
It still seems for the best

And I'm far far away with my head up in the clouds
And I'm far far away with my feet down in the crowds
Lettin' loose around the world
But the call of home is loud still as loud

 I've seen the Paris lights from high upon Montmartre
And felt the silence hanging low in no mans land
And all those Spanish nights were fine
It wasn't only from the wine
It still seems all in hand

And I'm far far away with my head up in the clouds
. . .

I've seen the yellow lights go down the Mississippi
The grand Bahama island stories carry on
And all those arigato smiles
Stay in your memory for a while
There still seems more to come.

And I'm far far away with my head up in the clouds
. . .

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