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Am I getting old and intolerant?


Georgina
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It's odd, really. Over the summer I was involved in a conversation with a reasonably close friend, who has offended a number of people of late by speaking her mind. She said that she felt she'd reached a stage in her life where she was "allowed" to do so, because she no longer cared what people thought, but felt she was getting old enough not to have to tolerate things which she found intolerable.

I'm no spring chicken myself, but she's 15 years older, and her attitude appalled me.

I agree that with age comes an increasing inclination towards grumpiness, but I do think there's a fine line between that and rudeness, and I hope it's a line I can manage not to cross. I really cannot reconcile all these "older" people who complain about the lack of manners in the younger generation, yet have no compunction about being as rude as they like as though their age confers upon them the right to do so. Whatever happened to leading by example?

I agree it's hard, sometimes. I also agree that occasionally something needs to be (and SHOULD be) said. Most of the time, however, it's none of our collective business, and it's probably better to simply count to however many it takes until the blood pressure returns to normal. The older you get, the more the adage "life's too short" applies to wasting time getting exercised about other people.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"] The older you get, the more the adage "life's too short" applies to wasting time getting exercised about other people.
[/quote]

Spot on again, Betty.  And here's another:  LIVE and let live....

After all, isn't that what most of us want?  Simply to live?[:D]

Oh, and, of course, just to get through lunch is some sort of achievement?[I]

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[quote user="dwmcn"]Georgina, I bit my fingernails until my junior high school teacher told me, when I was 13,  that my nails looked horrible. I immediately stopped and never bit them again. So you are safe sitting near me in a restaurant.[/quote]

Yes, it did make me feel unwell.  So i don't think I emphasised enough the frantic biting, it was really quite disturbing.  It wasn't just a nibble she was like she was eating all her fingers....... yuck

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[quote user="Pierre ZFP"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]The older you get, the more the adage "life's too short" applies to wasting time getting exercised about other people.

[/quote]

Yeah but that's all the exercise some people get [6]

[/quote]

Ok i 'aint old and I get plenty of exercise lol.......(: but it is interesting that some people actually don't think that it is bad manners really

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]It's odd, really. Over the summer I was involved in a conversation with a reasonably close friend, who has offended a number of people of late by speaking her mind. She said that she felt she'd reached a stage in her life where she was "allowed" to do so, because she no longer cared what people thought, but felt she was getting old enough not to have to tolerate things which she found intolerable.

I'm no spring chicken myself, but she's 15 years older, and her attitude appalled me.

I agree that with age comes an increasing inclination towards grumpiness, but I do think there's a fine line between that and rudeness, and I hope it's a line I can manage not to cross. I really cannot reconcile all these "older" people who complain about the lack of manners in the younger generation, yet have no compunction about being as rude as they like as though their age confers upon them the right to do so. Whatever happened to leading by example?

I agree it's hard, sometimes. I also agree that occasionally something needs to be (and SHOULD be) said. Most of the time, however, it's none of our collective business, and it's probably better to simply count to however many it takes until the blood pressure returns to normal. The older you get, the more the adage "life's too short" applies to wasting time getting exercised about other people.

[/quote]

Yes I thnk there is something in that, whereas some people think they can say what they like at a certain age, a bit like One Foot in the Grave but that does not apply to do what you like no matter if you put others off of their food, does it ???

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Yes I agree that some people do things that are quite simply disgusting. However if they are strangers in a public place IMO you just have to ignore them however difficult it is. I do not think it gives anyone the right to intervene unless what they are doing is illegal. If I were in a restaurant when one stranger went across to another stranger and started telling them off in a vigorous manner I would find that very disturbing and it would ruin my meal. So while other people's habits can be very upsetting to us, our own habits can be upsetting to others.
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I think the bottom line is that we are all entitled to be intolerant. In the OP, the phrase "I hate" was used in connection with loud nose blowing: something I do, and can't help. Nail biting is something many people do, and can't help. The latter, granted, is something that can be un-learned or controlled, the former, regrettably, not.

Being intolerant of something is quite different, however, from finding something to be "bad manners". Age is neither a barrier to intolerance nor to bad manners. For me, annoying a few people by blowing my nose seems infinitely perferable to sniffing or wiping on my sleeve!

If you dislike someone else's behaviour, many people may agree with you. In lots of cases, I might well be one of them. Setting yourself up as an arbiter of what's acceptable or otherwise is a road fraught with dangers, though.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"].... Setting yourself up as an arbiter of what's acceptable or otherwise is a road fraught with dangers, though.
[/quote]

 

However, isn't there a generally accepted 'sense' of what is acceptable in public, especially in relation to eating?  For example, is there anyone who would think that someone sitting at a resto table, and spitting on to the floor every so often is demonstrating acceptable behaviour?  What about someone who picks their nose all through the meal and wipes their fingers on the tablecloth after inspecting the contents?

Or are we really saying that in the 21st century what might have been previously thought of as good manners is no longer relevant because we are all empowered to 'do our own thing' regardless of anyone else's feelings?

 

 

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I totally agree. I was simply pointing out that it cuts both ways.

The OP (and I have, to some extent, focused my attention on the aspect of the OP's original comments which could, potentially, affect me personally) mentioned nose blowing.

If an individual is intolerant of loud nose blowing, on whose part, exactly, are the bad manners being demonstrated? Nose picking, earwax excavating, nail biting, zit squeezing....probably not the sort of thing one would advocate doing in public. Although for me, there are degrees of nail biting and it's probably less unpleasant than the rest. Bad manners aren't always intentional, IMO. I think the majority

of people can tell, and indeed know the difference, between deliberate

bad manners or boorish behaviour and unconscious or unavoidable actions. If you were doing something annoying

without being aware that you were doing it, or without being able to

help it, not aware you were offending other people, would a public

dressing-down by a complete stranger be welcome?

I was once in a very upscale hotel in Tunis and a man in a suit came into the restaurant where I was eating. He sat at an adjacent table, turned his chair so he faced my table directly, removed his shoes and, when his meal arrived, cut his steak in half with his knife (and with difficulty) and then proceeded to eat the meal with his hands. The maitre d'hotel apologised to me as I left, and when I returned the following evening, he found me a table in the corner around which they had erected a screen, so I could dine in peace[:-))]. Had I complained? No, actually. But the poor man wasn't being intentionally rude. He was clearly a fish out of water in the big city, had no idea of the conventions of a posh hotel environment, and he'd had a bit (quite a bit) of Dutch courage before entering the restaurant to eat. He also had literacy problems, as the waiter had to read the menu to him.

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I suppose my 'beef' with this area is the thinking that people can be totally unaware of the effect of their behaviour on others (leaving aside people like the chap you mentioned, Betty). Surely even the most 'boorish' of people have some general understanding of how to behave in public? No-one in Europe grows up in complete isolation, presumably they go to school, and there are plenty of 'examples' on TV and film, so some degree of socialisation is inevitable
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I don't think its being intolerant so much as different customs, practices and manners in other countries. My parents bought me up to be well mannered, eat properly, open doors for women and let them go first, always walk on the curb side of the street when with my wife etc, etc, some of which are now considered to be sexist by a minority these days. I was always expected to behave a certain way in a restaurant when out with my parents for example and I was taught table manners as well but then I was bought up in the UK. Other countries have different customs and practices like I was always taught to put my knife and fork together pointing 'up' the plate when finished, the French tend to put them sideways in my experience. I understand some of the French 'etiquette' but not a lot I must admit. I notice, for example, that French people tend to talk over each other, even at the food table, where as I was taught to wait till somebody has spoken before speaking myself. I have also noticed that if you lay a proper table UK style on the old outside in principle many French don't know what to use for what, give them a fish knife and some get really baffled. Is this because they have no manners, have never been taught or more likely because they don't normally do it this way in France?

Where I am going with this is that we live by the 'standards' we were taught and whilst we may consider, by our standards, some behavior to be disgusting and extremely rude in other countries they might be considered only slightly disgusting and only marginally rude or acceptable even but without knowing the correct etiquette in a country it is hard to pass comment.

In the OP's case being in France I don't know how I would react, if I were in the UK I would probably ask for a different table and explain why.

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I just go with the flow wherever I am no matter what country, some of the best meals that I have had have been cooked in the gutters.

Something very noticeable around these parts is what some would call boorish behaviour, it would definitely get the people thrown out of 99% of restos in the UK but (for me personally sadly) its the norme here, there is a need to demonstrate to all those within a radius of 100 meters that you and those on your table are having a far better time than everyone else, you do this by shouting and laughing at the top of your voice, often berating those at other tables, I can only liken it to a p***yfest.

Its very apparent at rédéries in the summer, people need to be seen (and heard) having lunch by their neighbours, so they will try to drink more and eat more than the others whilst making the maximum of noise and hurling (not) good natured insults across the road to each other, they are in fact playing to an audience as they dont do it when no-one is around any more than they behave in that way when they are the only table seated in a restaurant.

It also manifests itself when the guests leave after a party, here has to be much shouting, berating, banging of car doors, tooting of klaxons etc all intended to show to the widest audience just how late their party was and how much their guests enjoyed it, i liken it to the tooting of klaxons in a wedding cavalcade, I once discreetly asked some guests to lower their voices when they leaved because they may (although there was no may about it) awaken neighbours, they were really offended and told me so in no certain terms, the guests that is not the neighbours.

Quillan your point about talking over people is one of the few things that does get to me in France, its so hard to express yourself in a second language anyway without people constantly interrupting me (I am talking one to one) telling me what they knew what I was going to say anyway, it gets really frustrating as my upbringing prevents me from continuing when they cut in, I reckon I use the phrases "je disais" "j'essayais à dire" more than any other, the men are infinitely worse than women in this respect, some are so bad that I can no longer speak to them they annoy me so much.

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My goodness, Chance, there is clearly more than one France!

I've lived in 2 different départements now (although neighbouring départements) and my experience couldn't be more different from yours!

What I noticed when I first came (and this after visiting several areas and towns before buying) was how quietly people spoke in public.  In restaurants, they seemed to me to be having quiet, intimate conversations with each other, indeed so softly did they speak that they might have been mutually exchanging state secrets.

Even now, more than 5 years later, when the first shock (!) of discovery has worn off, I still find the French, on the whole, very softly spoken; whether they are queuing in the post office, supermarket checkouts or in restaurants.  Indeed, I have sometimes felt like a loud-mouthed, uncouth, redneck, just speaking in my ordinary voice![:-))]

And no, I am not falling into the trap of French Good, UK Bad, not at all.  This is what I have observed for myself in very many restos, towns, cities, villages, etc.  Admittedly, I have never visited your part of France, Chance, and whilst in the UK, I did live in the not very sophisticated part of Wales which my dear husband (himself born and bred there) calls the "third world".

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I just accept it as normal but wont be joining in Sweet17.

The one who really couldnt stand it was my ex who was from the next departemente, Le Nord 59, she came from a good family a strict upbringing and was very softly spoken, too much so for my deaf ears!

She hated eating out around here because I could not hear her over the racket and was always asking her to repeat herself or speak up which she found really hard to do, I did understand her feelings though, she could no more shout to be heard than I could interrupt someone who was speaking.

If you really want to experience it full on you need to go to one of the various village soirées, they arent exactly gastronomique or cultural events, ours is a soirée pâtate and I recently saw a sign for une soirée hamburger, I am told that any attempts to go more upmarket are failures and result in lots of complaints, the key ingredient seems to be unlimited supplies of cheap pinard.

I think that in many things around here the lowest common denominator rules and people try their hardest not to stick out, how ridiculous does that sound!!! In public they have to act loud and boorish in order not to stick out!!!

Editted.

I should precise that generally in public people arent loud, in the supermarket, doctors waiting room etc la politesse is there but often thinly veiled, the character changes quickly when they dont get their way or if you were to make a polite request for a refund for instance, in fact I find that remaining calm and polite, not raising my voice etc does the exact opposite of what I would hope for, again its much worse when their is an audience.

The common factor that triggers the behaviour is alcohol.

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Well Chancer being an International Hotelier [;-)] you should try the Spanish especially if there are two or more couples. It seems to me that they can't have any form of conversation without shouting. I am sure they are not really shouting, perhaps it is their Spanish accents but it sure does sound like they are. Italians are a bit better but only just and are more 'animated' a bit like the French at times. Trouble is here we are talking about other nationalities but I wonder what they make of us? I often hear the phrase 'typically English', in French of course but I wonder what it is in their eyes that makes us thus? Come in Clair, we can take it, tell us do. [;-)]

I forgot the Germans and Swiss, they are very well behaved and leave the rooms every day as they were when they first arrived. Beds impeccably made, towels folded, tea and coffee making stuff all washed up and dried. In general very nice people, well the ones we get are.

Actually thinking as I type the worst are the English expats from Australia and South Africa. Not the ones who have been there for generations but the ones that went over in the 60's and 70's. They can be very rude at times for no reason and their general attitude shows a lot of intolerance to just about everyone. The South African ones are quite racist especially compared to those that have been there several generations. It feels like they were once members of the National Front.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I think the bottom line is that we are all entitled to be intolerant. In the OP, the phrase "I hate" was used in connection with loud nose blowing: something I do, and can't help. Nail biting is something many people do, and can't help. The latter, granted, is something that can be un-learned or controlled, the former, regrettably, not.

Being intolerant of something is quite different, however, from finding something to be "bad manners". Age is neither a barrier to intolerance nor to bad manners. For me, annoying a few people by blowing my nose seems infinitely perferable to sniffing or wiping on my sleeve!

If you dislike someone else's behaviour, many people may agree with you. In lots of cases, I might well be one of them. Setting yourself up as an arbiter of what's acceptable or otherwise is a road fraught with dangers, though.

[/quote]

Ok I can see that you are the kind of person that argues black is white.  If you are a constant nose blower, you could maybe retire to the bathroom whilst people are eating, that would be good manners,

For the record, I cannot tolerate bad manners LOL

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Fortunately, I'm not a constant nose blower. Just a loud one. [:D] If, however, I sneeze or find my nose is running during a restaurant meal, I'll be b***d if I'm going to sprint for the bathroom just to ensure that the sensitivities of my fellow diners are not offended. Perhaps I should do a brief survey before sitting down to eat, to find out just how widespread this dislike of loud nose blowing actually is? Who knows, perhaps it's not a majority concern?

And something that I personally don't like terribly much is a complete stranger preaching to me about what is "good manners". My parents did a perfectly acceptable job.

A few months ago I went to the post office to get a stamp. Whilst I was in the queue, a young lad of about 16 came up to me and took my hand, then gave me a big hug. He had snot streaming from his nose and he was dribbling profusely. "Hello" he said brightly, and then gave me the hug.

It really, really made my day. I was glowing from the experience for ages afterwards. His dad was apologetic, but I told him exactly what I've just told you. You see, the young lad was, quite obviously, very severely mentally disabled. He will certainly never understand the concept of good manners, but meeting him was a happy and a humbling experience.

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Twice now - Not once, but twice - I have had to act when eating in a restaurant when couples at a neighbouring table have stopped mid-meal to change their baby's shitty nappy. No, not take it to the toilets, but change it in the middle of the bloody restaurant! First time the table was right next to ours and I was sharing a bench seat with the mother a few feet along from me when she laid the child out between us and started ministering to its mess. When I confronted her, she went off on one at me, obviously I am in the wrong for not wanting to inhale the stench while eating and for not believing her offspring is the centre of the entire world and should be treated like a king. Her partner got very gobby and aggressive too. The red mist came down and I was just getting up to drag the radge through the nearest exit and kick him round the carpark a few times when the staff arrived. My partner and I were moved to another table and had half the bill waived - I don't know what happened to the couple with the kid.....

Second time was another couple at a table nearby who actually pushed their plates aside and started changing its nappy on the table. I told them in no uncertain terms that they were a pair of mingers who should be banned from going out in public until they learned basic hygiene and manners. They just looked at me as if I were a raving lunatic and they were doing nothing wrong.....

And then there was that kid I saw sitting on a self-service counter in a supermarket, scooping handfuls of the potato salad, fried rice etc into its mouth and spitting the ones it didn't like back into the bowls....

It seems to be a weekly occurrence for me to see something that makes me think "If the opportunity arose, who would I slap first, the parent or the child?...."

Even my nephew, who is a relatively well behaved 8 year old child, acts daily in a manner that would have got me a thick ear or the slipper - table manners being the worst. He holds his cutlery like a barbarian holds a club - shovels his food into his gob as fast as possible, banging his cutlery against his teeth, chews with his mouth open, talks with his mouth full, wanders away from the table mid meal and generally acts like a farm animal.

I am a very intolerant person though, and will happily admit so. Pretty much every time I go to a supermarket I get as far as the tinned goods aisle before I find myself thinking "If I had brought a gun with me, the massacre would be starting about now......"
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Well Dave I think that's pretty rough by any standards anywhere, I think it these cases I would have acted the same way as you.

In many cases I am afraid the fault lays in the way they were bought up and the lack in proper parental guidance. I also see a problem with France when it comes to bars and restaurants and sanitation. There are apparently no regulations on what toilet facilities have to be installed in such places. Our local bar, used for drinking after rugby matches, only has one toilet for both sexes. The (sad) joke is get in first or bring your wellies. Other places are quite aware like our 'rough diamond' restaurant. They have separate toilets and a side area for changing nappies (screened from the public) yet the nappies changing area is not compulsory. The French Vietnamese couple that own the restaurant believe having such a facility gets more families in to eat.

A friend of mine (French) told be once that the problem was they cut all the heads of the aristocrats during the revolution and since then they have had nobody to teach them good manners and etiquette, his words not mine and I think he was making a joke.

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[quote user="dave21478"]I am in the wrong for not believing her offspring is the centre of the entire world and should be treated like a king. It seems to be a weekly occurrence for me to see something that makes me think "If the opportunity arose, who would I slap first, the parent or the child?...." [/quote]

I often ask myself at which point children, more so in the UK but also in France, became the centre of the universe, or is it just the ill behaved ones? the ones with special names like hyperactive or attention deficit or expressive, whenever it happened I must have been unaware.

I shall remember your mental question which one would I slap first, I think in most cases the parents.

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[quote user="Chancer"]I often ask myself at which point children, more so in the UK but also in France, became the centre of the universe, or is it just the ill behaved ones? the ones with special names like hyperactive or attention deficit or expressive, whenever it happened I must have been unaware.[/quote]

Hear, hear.   Well said.

I cannot define the exact point, but it goes precisely hand in hand with the use of the term 'kids'.

I could scarcely repress a shudder at the Original Post.  The combination of Brit + Kids in a restaurant is generally so singularly noxious as to enable me to tolerate any amount of frankic nose-picking as a decidedly lesser evil.

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[quote user="Gengulphus"]The combination of Brit + Kids in a restaurant is generally so singularly noxious as to enable me to tolerate any amount of frankic nose-picking as a decidedly lesser evil.

[/quote]

I used to think that but over more recent years I have noticed a lot of French kids behaving badly as well, little angels they are not.

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