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Parts of the English language that the French find difficult.


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[quote user="sweet 17"]

Hi there, Betty!  You've tempted me out of Forum retirement!

"Titanic-stopping iceberg"......hmmm....I'd have said "Tatanic-sinking iceberg" myself.......[:P]

Don't you just love splitting hairs?[:D]  I know I do.........

[/quote]

Ah, but it stopped first.....:-)

I missed your retirement, Sweets. Was there a retirement party? A card? Don't retire. They've upped the age, you know. And besides, there are no youngsters here, chomping at the bit to take over from us all...

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[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Christine Animal"]J-P can't understand how anyone can be fast asleep.   [:D][/quote]I know some  people also think it is weird to say something is frightfully nice.[/quote]

Mind you, the some French over-use "vachement" - How the heck can anything be "cowly" good?

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Verbs used in combination with another word, with many different meanings, for which there would usually be a single word in French.

For example: "put up" –

I've put up a fence (construire)

I've put it up for sale (offrir)

I can't put up a tent (monter)

I can't put up with the noise (tolérer)

We can put you up for the night (héberger)

We should put him up for membership (proposer)

We'd better put it up to the directors (soumettre)

Someone must have put him up to it (inciter)

– plus one or two that I wouldn't know how to translate:

He put up a good fight

Put up or shut up!

Both French and Spanish friends have told me that this is a particular nightmare in English.

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Norman brought it up first. It's true, they're very important, though. Good that the point is being reinforced! Trouble is, teaching them is a full-time job. You can buy whole dictionaries just dealing with phrasal verbs. Who knew there were so many?

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I think that there is a case for teaching (or classifying) them beginning with the preposition, 'up' 'off' 'away' etc, rather than the verb 'get' 'put' etc since I am convinced that English has a sense of action and direction.

In some cases just the preposition is very expressive...

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[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Christine Animal"]J-P can't understand how anyone can be fast asleep.   [:D][/quote]I know some  people also think it is weird to say something is frightfully nice.[/quote]

Mind you, the some French over-use "vachement" - How the heck can anything be "cowly" good?

[/quote]

Because it's 'owl' to say 'cowly'[6]

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[quote user="allanb"]Verbs used in combination with another word, with many different meanings, for which there would usually be a single word in French. For example: "put up" – I've put up a fence (construire) I've put it up for sale (offrir) I can't put up a tent (monter) I can't put up with the noise (tolérer) We can put you up for the night (héberger) We should put him up for membership (proposer) We'd better put it up to the directors (soumettre) Someone must have put him up to it (inciter) – plus one or two that I wouldn't know how to translate: He put up a good fight Put up or shut up! Both French and Spanish friends have told me that this is a particular nightmare in English.[/quote]

A very good example, is it a phrasal verb then?

Could someone explain what a phrasal verb is in simple terms, I am someone that was never taught any grammar so the terms are pretty much meaningless to me, after all this time the only two that I understand with any confidence are verb and noun.

You can also add to the list "put up with" (or usually cannot put up with) - supporter

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That is a phrasal verb, Chancer. It's very simple: we have gazillions of them and you'd instantly recognise them without knowing what they were. Basically, it's a verb with a preposition - known in this context as a "particle" (i.e. "in", "on", "up", "off" and so on).

So, the examples already given plus enough others to fill a dictionary. Here's a tiny list using just one preposition:

[url]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_phrasal_verbs_with_particle_%28in%29[/url]

I know some of them are a bit obscure, but there are many more not listed there which aren't.

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[quote user="Chancer"]Could someone explain what a phrasal verb is in simple terms[/quote]

I suggest it means a verb (like "put") used together with another word (like "up") with a meaning that is not obviously related to the meanings of those two words separately.  There may be more than two, as in "put up with."

In a sentence like "let's put up a tent" or "put the book up on the shelf" I wouldn't call "put up" a phrasal verb, because "put" and "up" are being used with natural meanings.   

On the other hand, if someone says "you shouldn't put up with that" you, as an English speaker, will understand it.  But a foreigner might not, even if he knew the words "put" and "up" and "with."  In combination, those words mean something different from what they mean separately.  So I would say that "put up with" in that case is a phrasal verb.

PS: Betty – I wrote the above before seeing your post.  Do you still call it a phrasal verb if each word is used in its ordinary sense?  I don't think I would.

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Allanb: I believe, linguistically, it's still a phrasal verb, as you wouldn't use the verb without the particle. Most phrasal verbs have several meanings, and very often one is more literal and another more abstract. Think about "take off". You take off your coat, and that's quite literal. However, if you simply "take" your coat, the meaning is completely altered. However, when a plane takes off, the meaning in that context is completely different and somewhat less literal.

Your example of "putting up" a tent is a good one to demonstrate the counter-argument to yours. For you, it's using "put up" in a natural way. However, a non-native English speaker would see things differently, I think. "Put the tent up? Up where?". don't forget, as well, that I can put you up if you come to my home, for example.

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Yes, I understand your point and I can see that "putting up" wasn't very useful as an illustration.

Let me ask again, choosing more carefully this time: "he went out." I don't think "out" changes the meaning of "went" – it just adds some information to it (just as "he went out through the window" would add some more.) Would you nevertheless say that "to go out" is a phrasal verb?

I don't see this as an argument, by the way – I'd just like to know what the accepted definition is, if there is one.

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No, I completely understand you, and your point. However, a phrasal verb IS a verb with a preposition, regardless of how logical or illogical the use.

Your lights also go out, so there's another example of an abstract use of the same phrasal verb. Basically, if the meaning of the constituent parts is altered by using them together, then it's a phrasal verb. "he went out" DOES change the meaning of "went", because it tells you where he went. It's arguably a bit different in the past tense - although not really. "He's gone" is not the same as "he's gone out" or "He's gone away".

Without wishing to complicate an already complicated thing, phrasal verbs sometimes take an adverb instead of a preposition, too.

I think it's worth putting the boot on the other foot for a moment. If I talk to my class (the current one, as a random example, comprises Spanish, French, Hungarian, Polish, Portuguese, Japanese, Thai and Czech students) about phrasal verbs, they have all been taught that a phrasal verb is a verb with a preposition. There is no doubt in their minds at all, and they fully understand that most (if not all) phrasal verbs have literal and abstract meanings.

If, however, I suggest they go home and ask the native English speakers with whom they work or live to give them an example of a phrasal verb, 99.9% of them will come back and tell me that the response was "What's a phrasal verb?"

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That gives me some comfort then [:D]

I guess that I was twelve or so when it first dawned on me that I was not actually getting any education in my own language, it was a trendy progressive 70's comprehensive that earned the title in the press "the training ground for Borstal"

It was one of the first proper formal French lessons, never being shy to put my hand up and ask if I didnt understand something I said "Miss, what is a verb?" (I had never heard of one before) she thought that I was taking the mick so gave me a detention, she also punished the others who said "but Miss, we dont know what a verb is"

She never did explain and as the English teachers were all stoned and smoking dope in front of the class neither did they [:(] It wasnt even on the syllabus, nor correction of spelling, in junior school I was always top of the class for spelling, it was supposedly all about expression.

Eventually realising how handicapped I was regarding grammar I didnt pluck up the courage to ask what a verb was until I was 28 and by then had a very good and understanding secretary who taught me a lot.

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Thanks for all the interesting replies.

What happened was that the French women were all very good. At least one of them was virtually bilingual and they all knew much more about grammar than I do.

Hoddy
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[quote user="Hoddy"]Thanks for all the interesting replies.

What happened was that the French women were all very good. At least one of them was virtually bilingual and they all knew much more about grammar than I do.

Hoddy[/quote]

That's because they are taught grammar. It's embarrassing to realise the extent to which we aren't, but it's true.

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There was a grammar test on the BBC website a few days ago - I can't quite recall the story behind it now but think it was a new test to be taken by primary school children in the UK.

My husband scored 2/10, I scored 8/10 - not because I was taught English Grammar at school (I wasn't) or because I'm inherently more intelligent than my husband (I'm not), but simply because I applied the French grammar I was taught whilst learning French to the sentences in English and (mostly!) it worked.

Lou

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This has made me wonder about the history of the French education system. I know about the history of education in England and I don't think that we have ever taught grammar to all our children.

Does anyone know the history of mass education in France ?

Hoddy

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