Life is a risky business

[idun]

I said what I wanted to say on the Carol Sheridan thread and have looked with interest at the subsequent comments.

Life is a risky business, and death will arrive, it is the when that will be different for all of us.

I would like to say that as far as I am concerned there is a great deal of difference between us going about our daily routines,  and us taking part in any activity that holds specific risks.

For example sports, we can take part in various sporting activities and are surely aware that we could sprain or break something. And then there are those other activities where others could then be risking their lives in order to rescue us and for me those activities  come in quite another category.

I was beside myself a couple of weeks ago to see a lifeboat bobbing up and down in atrocious seas attempting to find and rescue a boy who had gone surfing, when, for at least 24 hours prior to the storm hitting, people were being warned to keep away from the shoreline, never mind enter the water. I was so relieved when the emergency services had no fatalities. I was brought up next to the sea and we know people who are members of a life boat crew, I do understand what it is all about.

And then there are the mountains, and I have known several people who have lost their lives. Experienced mountain people, one a guide, and he would always do all he should do, and yet accidents happen.

And unless we advised not to go into the mountains then I am fine with the idea that people will want to. I want them to be sensible and take all the precautions that they can. Those that rescue understand that accidents happen, but they don't need to be putting themselves at risk on a wild goose chase for someone who may or not be even in the mountains.

And that is pretty much what I want to say on this subject.

[Quillan]

Life is risky but you try to even out the odds by reducing the risks involved which normally means knowing what to do and what not to do. Without reference to any other thread there are some pretty stupid people about and not just those taking part in an activity.

Immediately it comes to mind an old TV advert years and years ago showing somebody in trouble in a boat near some cliffs. There was a couple walking along the top of the cliffs and one said to the other something like "Oh look that chaps waving at us" they waved back and carried on walking. It was of course about the Coast Guard and that should you see somebody in the sea waving furiously to call them.

I always have, and still do, subscribe to the RNLI every year. Although my sailing is well from the UK these days I have seen them at work over the years and know how many lives they have saved and continue to save and consider it a good thing to do.

Having spent many years on the water in one type of boat or another I have seen some very stupid and dangerous things. I have seen people moving on to the tidal section of the Thames intending to sail down it to the end with just a tourist A4 map that shows where the tourist attractions are. I have seen people navigate the Thames with and A to Z and, likewise I have seen people try to navigate in to harbours with just a road map. Not only are these stupid people putting their own lives at risk but often their families as well not to mention the lives of those who have to go out and try and rescue them in atrocious conditions and in many cases the rescuers are volunteers.

When cruising the canals I have seen families on hire boats with kids whose hands and arms are outside the boat when in a lock. Kids running round locks when being emptied and even people loosing fingers when dropping paddles rather than use the lock handle. All very stupid things to do but of course they believe nothing will ever happen to them because they think they are experts and know it all.

It is a very sad thing in life that it takes a terrible accident to make people realise that many of these activities can be very dangerous if you are not properly prepared and don't know what you are doing.

Sports are another area. When learning Judo the first thing you are taught is how to fall. In rugby how to fall when tackled and how to tackle safely. Even rowing you are taught what to do when you catch a ‘crab’. All these things, if you don’t know, can be extremely dangerous. More years ago than I can remember a kid at our school was killed by a golf club to the back of his neck because the ball fell off the tee so he bent down to put it back when the player was on his down swing. This proves that even when you tell somebody what they shouldn’t do they still do it with terrible results.

But then we shouldn’t live our lives wrapped up in cotton wool frightened to try things but what we should do is seek professional advice and make sure we have the correct equipment and more importantly what to do when things go wrong.

[Patf]

I'm glad you started this separate thread idun.

Like Quillan I've made donations to RNLI over the years, but also , have spent many of the best years of my life walking in the UK hills and mountains ( too old now [:(]) )

Many times we went as a family and all our children learnt to love the outdoors but respect the dangers.

We always took map and compass, wore appropriate footwear, carried extra food and clothing, and sometimes tents and sleeping bags. And still had several hair-raising times when the weather suddenly changed. And that was on relatively easy terrain and weather conditions compared to the Alps.

I just hope the sadness of Carol's death can show people that we should be in awe of the mountains, and the elements, as well as enjoying their beauty.

[PaulT]

But at times risks are taken that has a high certainty of not surviving - take the crews of 617 RAF squadron in attacking the German dams. Nowadays though I dare say the H&S bods would say 'you cannot do that'.

[andyh4]

Sensing from this and the previous thread, that some are looking for some rules of conduct, I will stick my neck out and make a start.

 

When venturing out (walking, sailing, climbing, canyoning, caving, horse riding etc.) make sure that before you leave, a responsible person knows where you are going, what you plan to do and when you intend to return.

Make sure that this person knows who to inform if you do not return by the planned time.

When you return make sure the responsible person knows and does not set off the rescue rabbits on a wild chase.

 

Know what you expect to encounter by doing some research or going with someone who knows the ropes already.  For example be sure you know the difference between a hand line and a safety line.

Try and make sure that what you are doing is within your capabilities.  This is always difficult since you will need to push your capabilities to find out where are the boundaries.  So take small steps and not huge ones when pushing your experience.  (A rescue in the Yorkshire Dales involved someone who had fallen down a 3m climb and broken various bits.  When the Rescue arrived he said, "But you are not supposed to need a lifeline on this climb."  The reply was, "Aye but you are not supposed to fall off the bu@@er either.", which is about as close to criticism you are every likely to find from the rescue.)

Make sure you are properly equipped to handle the route and remember that weather conditions (for example) can dramatically change the conditions and change the equipment that you need.  Your equipment should  include all relevant safety kit.  This may be a lifejacket, a safety line, a safety harness etc..  It should also include emergency rations, clothing and where appropriate emergency shelter.

Make sure you know how to use the equipment and know what to do when something unexpected happens.  Another incident involved a student abseiling down a 90m face.  Part way down, his rather long hair became entrapped in the abseiling device. He had no equipment to go back up and release the pressure on his hair and scalp.  He had no knife to cut his hair and slowly he was slipping millimetre by millimetre down the rope.  Fortunately one of his companions did have a rather blunt knife and climbed up to him and performed a crude barbers operation 50m above the ground.

Do not be afraid to call off or change your route if the conditions - weather or team members competencies or strength - dictate that to continue with the planned route would be hazardous.

If you change the itinerary you should make sure that the responsible person - or another responsible person  - is informed.  

This now comes back to the (ignored) point I made in the previous thread about how and who a lone adventurer should inform in such circumstances - and to this I have no answer but would welcome realistic suggestions.

 

 

So there my basic rules for survival in and under the hills or out on the water.

Additions, corrections and suggestions welcome.

 

 

[YCCMB]

I'd imagine that there's a fairly simple way of informing people, even if you're alone. Off the top of my head, send a text to a designated friend or family member when you go off on a walk. If, as appears to be the case in the accident in question, you make a last-minute decision or don't know where you're going to go, send the text when you are leaving your car, letting someone know where you have parked. At least that way they're not going to have to find your car in an out-of-the-way spot before they can even find you. The old "3 rings" or a follow-up text when you get back, and all is fine.

A low-tech alternative (not nearly as satisfactory, but it works for scuba diving) is to have a notepad, tiny drywipe board or similar in your home. "Sign out" when you leave home. Obviously, you don't need to sign in again when you come back safe and sound, but if someone has to break into your house and finds a little message to say you popped out for a loaf six days ago, they can narrow their search, and they at least know they do NEED to start searching.

None of this should restrict anyone's freedom to do as they please, but it's a small price to pay to ensure that people have a rough idea of your intentions and don't waste valuable time looking for you in the wrong places. And, if family and friends know you've adopted the habit, then they can direct the authorities accordingly.

It might even be a good idea to make arrangements with a neighbour to touch base once every couple of days. If it becomes a habit, and they don't see you, then it can be cause for further investigation or concern. It's not about an admission of weakness, or a need for help, it's simply a way of ensuring that someone is alerted at the earliest opportunity that something could be wrong.

Above all, though, I think recent events are a salutory lesson to us all that we're not to big/old/clever to make the fatal mistake of believing we're invincible. And that there's a fine line (at any age) between being independent and being foolhardy.

[Quillan]

There is lots of professional advice available about what to wear and what to take with you when hill and mountain walking, I have listed a couple below or you can Google Hill and mountain walking safety. Nearly all the information will include one of the basic rules which is never to walk on your own in the mountains unless it cannot be avoided.

http://www.ros.gov.uk/pdfs/hillwalking_safety.pdf

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/go-walking/advice-for-walkers/safety/mountain-and-hill-walking.aspx

Although written for people in the UK they do represent the basic rules which apply in most European countries.

For those of us that walk in France then there is http://www.ffrandonnee.fr which is THE organisation in France for walking and hiking. They produce loads of publications including Topo Guides (in conjunction with IGN) which cover all of France and contain detailed circular routes ranging from very easy to difficult. The books also contain loads of useful information (including maps) about what to see, the flora, wildlife, historic places etc. An excellent buy (you can find them in your local shops) and I use them a lot. Their website is well worth a visit.

I forgot to mention their Top Guides show you how footpaths etc are colour marked for the three different types in France.

The other thing about France, from experience, is that you should replace your map(s) every couple of years. They have a habit of moving footpaths and tracks particularly in forests where they 'farm' trees, one track will close and another will open.

One comment that I disagree with a little because it depends on several factors is what to do if the weather closes in. If you are unable to contact anyone then you should either stop or return using your original route. If you do the latter then you will know when the path becomes dangerous and you should stop at that point. If you have passed a place that gives better shelter then return to that if it is safe to do so. The reason for this is quite basic. If you have left information with somebody as to your route that will be searched first. Time is often the most important issue and doing this will enable you to be found quicker.

As to walking on your own, well low level walking, more like rambling across easy terrain is in most cases OK. If you intend to go up in to the mountains and you really feel the need to walk on your own then follow Betties suggestion. To be honest I never walk in the mountains on my own, always in a group. On the French website there are links to walking clubs etc and you can ask locally. I walk with the one that operates out of Quillan (twice a week) and it is great fun.

Hope that helps.

[Rabbie]

I agree with the sensible advice already given. When at school I attended two camps run by the RAF mountain rescue. The key point they made was always to treat the mountains with proper respect as regards equipment, clothing, choice of route etc. It is key to make sure you leave details of your route with someone or at least to leave details in your car so searchers have some idea of where to look. I know from having assisted in searches how easy it is to miss some one lying injured so make sure you are wearing bright clothing. It could save your life. 

[andyh4]

Betty

Although I agree in principle with sending a text message, this misses the point that I have made elsewhere, that in many places you will have no mobile signal.  Phone companies proudly proclaim very high network coverage percentages, but on inspection these are usually based on where people live and not on the total land area.  Consequently 90% coverage might relate to only 35% of the land area, and the areas not covered are precisely those where people will go away to in order to go walking, climbing, caving etc..

 

Q

I agree with your point about going back the way you came or staying where you are, but only as far as that is the safest option.  Sitting on top of a mountain as a thunder storm moves in or returning along the ridge route you used to gain the summit would not be sensible options.  Equally any route that has involved a rope pull down will automatically exclude going back the way you came.

[Chancer]

I am glad this is a seperate thread as we dont know at all if poor Sheridans demise was due to being unprepared in a very risky environment, someone could easily just trip into a ditch around here and not be found for a very long time as people really dont look out for each other.

Being single and doing lots of outdoor activities on my own like Sheridan I can understand why she would not want to wait for the one organised randonée per week and only during school term time, often the people are really unprepared and walk very slowly, I also understood that perhaps there was no-one locally to inform, certainly anyone I have told about my plans were really put out about it, if my car was missing for several weeks no-one would bat an eyelid as now sadly for security reasons I can no longer tell neighbours that I will be going away or for how long. Sheridan did inform her daughter who raised the alarm immediately.

In my case its not walking in the mountains but one of my favorite walks is a goat track on a cliff face which  reminds me of Les Andes, were I to fall there its unlikely that I would be discovered for a very long time for the above reason and because the French only walk it in high summer, I also carry the same risk at any time of year whenever I set out in my kayak.

I am glad to say that I have picked up 2 tips which I could use from this thread, leaving a note at home and leaving one in the car, I dont think that in the worst case either one is likely to save my life as its would be weeks before anyone decided to search but it would avoid volunteers or the emergency service wasting their time looking for a needle in a hay bale.

[Salty Sam]

Some wise words there from all concerned.

As someone who has been involved in Search & Rescue for over 40 years (with scars to prove it!), I'll just add a couple of things if I may.

On the subject of letting someone know. In the "old" days, technology amounted to a pen (or pencil) and a thing called a "Route Card" where one would mark down the intended route complete with bearings, grid references, escape routes, timings, etc. One working copy to be kept  with you and a duplicate to be left somewhere such as a youth hostel, pub, police, camp-site, mountain rescue post, etc.

I can remember when it was also possible to leave brief details displayed in a prominent position within a vehicle, with a time and date of return. Unfortunately nowadays, this is an invitation to thieves!

The greatest waste of resources in any kind of SAR operation is when someone is reported missing - often after much time has elapsed, and the missing person has either had a change of mind, and route, or made a decision to venture elsewhere without informing anyone.

Example; Chap informed his wife he was going to Scotland for a weekend around the Glencoe area. Changed his mind and decided on the Lake District. On the second day, became a victim of the weather and sat it out overnight as unsure of a safe route off the hill.

Unfortunately, while he was experiencing an uncomfortable night out, his wife was getting increasingly concerned at his non-arrival home, and subsequently informed the police who in turn passed all the relevant information to the police in Scotland.

Chappie made his way off the hill at first light, after finding a spot where his mobile would pick up a weak signal and informing his wife of his whereabouts, and subsequently attended a police station to explain his actions and apologise profusely over the telephone, to the leader of the rescue team in Scotland that had spent a wet and cold night carrying out an initial search!

A simple note left somewhere with the most basic of details regarding

your intentions will be greatly appreciated should you suffer a mishap,

or go astray. If you change your intentions, then a call to the police notifying them you are safe and well will also be appreciated!

The grading of footpaths is great, as long as the grading is respected! It's amazing just how many people consider themselves to be "experienced", yet become unstuck when it comes to being able to 'micro-navigate' in bad visibility, or estimate distances, or even read the terrain in conjunction with a map.

During Mountain Leader training exercises in GB, one of my colleagues used to joke, "That's the beauty of GB, it's impossible to be lost as you're on an island! Go N,S,E,or W and eventually you'll hit the coast!"

Unfortunately for some people though, this would never happen as they simply refuse to believe what their compass is telling them, and yes it is possible to walk aimlessly around in circles!

Smart-phones and GPS are fantastic bits of technology. They are however, only aids! Google maps may guide you up and down the motorway, they won't guide you safely off Scafell nor any other summit in Europe! Similarly, I'd never consider using a GPS to guide me off Ben Nevis in winter in bad visibility. A GPS error factor is sufficient to see you drop down one of the gulleys!

So again, Smart-Phones and GPS should not be considered to first line navigation tools, or replacements for map and compass. The excuse of "flat batteries" doesn't go down too well either!

Mention has been made elsewhere regarding the use of PLB's (Personal Locator Beacons). Worth the expense? That's for the individual to decide, but it should also be borne in mind that the user must be conscious and lucid enough to be in a position to trigger the device.

"Experience" in the mountain environment is a little more than the ability of being able to place one foot in front of the other!

Finally, to quote "

You can call me Betty", 

Above all, though, I think recent events are a salutory lesson to us all

that we're not to big/old/clever to make the fatal mistake of believing

we're invincible. And that there's a fine line (at any age) between

being independent and being foolhardy.

Says it all really![:)]

[Quillan]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Betty

Although I agree in principle with sending a text message, this misses the point that I have made elsewhere, that in many places you will have no mobile signal.  Phone companies proudly proclaim very high network coverage percentages, but on inspection these are usually based on where people live and not on the total land area.  Consequently 90% coverage might relate to only 35% of the land area, and the areas not covered are precisely those where people will go away to in order to go walking, climbing, caving etc..

 

Q

I agree with your point about going back the way you came or staying where you are, but only as far as that is the safest option.  Sitting on top of a mountain as a thunder storm moves in or returning along the ridge route you used to gain the summit would not be sensible options.  Equally any route that has involved a rope pull down will automatically exclude going back the way you came.

[/quote]

I think you may be surprised just where mobiles work these days. I was reading about the Alps because of something somebody said (it may have been you, I can't remember) in  Carols thread and was pleasantly surprise just how much of the Alps get a phone signal and how even more places you can at least text from.

As to being on the top of a mountain I think we are in the realms of mountaineering here which is, as I am sure you know, a different activity and more specialised. The safety equipment required is quite different as no doubt you are aware and that equipment would enable you to protect yourself, even at the peak, from most of what bad weather can throw at you. If you go on the mountain without it then to be honest you deserve what you get.

All us Brits will know Snowdonia and keep in mind that the Alps and some of the Pyrenees is far more rugged. According to the Llanberiss Mountain Rescue team there were 176 callouts in 2012. The most common reason was people being lost because of either bad weather or walking off track. The second most common reason was cragfast that is people climbing in crags and getting stuck. The third most common was injury from falls most of which were people 'over extending' themselves, lack of appropriate footwear and/or equipment.

Chancer, you have many friends (believe it or not  ) on the forum I for one would never object to you dropping me an email saying where you are going and what time you will be back and I am sure there are others who would not object ether.

SS, I was typing this when your post appeared. I don’t know if you are aware but EGNOS, a system that supplements GPS, was approved for SOL (Safety of Life) use in 2011 for both land and sea emergency organisations in Europe. It was also approved for ILS landings at airports which do not have ILS equipment. All the OS Explorer and IGN maps are available for GPS units these days and I have used mine to within 1M accuracy. That aside it is a tool and one should always carry a proper map and decent compass along with a waterproof case. To be honest if you are walking along a tight footpath on the edge of a drop then both are pretty useless, your eyes are the most important ‘tool’.

[Chancer]

Quillan.

Like probably a lot of people Sheridans dissapearance made me think a lot about my own wanderings and others who like me may not have une personne de confiance to trouble, the real irony is that my personne de confiance who I have listed at the hospital for instance is the last person that I would want to be advised if there were any problems as she is such a worrier, for the same reason I would not let her know my itinary for a randonée or kayaking.

I did actually think about what you said re the forum and were it a forum for singles or solo adventurors it would be very appropriate, there is also the problem that someone might send a PM on their way out, return safely only to find the ADSL and telephone down.

I will be cycling much of the length of France next year and camping at the roadside, it was put back from this year, I will have to arrange some sort of reporting then.

When i travelled in 2004 my family and friends often did not hear from me for months at a time, pretty much every day was filled with outdoor activities carrying a significant risk, in fact when the first they did hear about after 6 weeks was a call from the hospital to say that I had been admitted with and being treated for malaria, the next 48 hours would be decisive.

New Zealand had an excellent set up for people "tramping" in the national parks, excellent as long as you obeyed by it that is. Before entering the park you would go see a warden at one of the lodges on the perimeter, tell him your expected itinary and expected day and point of departure, he would then advise you of any hazards, inaccessible areas, whether your plan was doable, in some cases saying, given the weather conditions you should stay here tonight and set off earlier tomorrow etc.

Whenever you reached one of the refuges you would sign in the register and also sign out giving the date and time you left and your expected destination that day, I did some walks of more than a week in this manner carrying all my food with me and getting water at the refuges, when I left I signed out with the warden but it wasnt my designated exit point so he contacted the other warden.

As soon as anybody slipped off the radar the search parties went out immediately, first stop was to check the register at the refugees on the route and to question those staying there.

I actually missed completely a couple of refuges through a combination of bad navigating, badly flechéd paths and weather conditions and had to kip out in my bivvi bag, one such night I was disturbed in the night by a woman going for a call of nature at the long drop (outside toilet) I scared her to death, it turned out that I less than 50 metres from the refuge!!!!

[YCCMB]

Andy - take your point about mobile coverage. I mentioned it when there was a flurry of "surely they can get a signal from her phone" messages during the hunt for Carol S. However, there's nothing stopping people from sending a text before they go out (if they know where they're going), nor from trying to text when they park up, or trying for a signal once they've walked a short way. I can see that many would think it a PITA, hence my more "low tech" suggestion - an idea, similar to Chancer's above, with which I'm familiar from both shore and boat diving in the past. Even if you live alone, I think it's a bit unwise, or maybe short-sighted, to put pride in your independence and self-sufficiency above making contact with a neighbour, local shopkeeper or someone who might be willing just to take note of your habits, so they can raise the alarm if you suddenly don't show up.

As a complete aside, but nonetheless relevant to this discussion, I was using an article from the British Council website the other day with one of my students, which related to a report published regularly by theDepartment of Trade and Industry . This was the annual Home and Leisure Accident Surveillance System Report. I quote from the article below:

"Some of the most harmless things prove to be extremely dangerous:

Clothes: the Times (07 June 2001) reported that there were 5945

trouser accidents (compared with only 5,137 the previous year). Socks

and tights caused 10,773 accidents. Most of these accidents were people

falling over because they were getting dressed too fast, and many other

people fell over clothes left on the floor.

Meanwhile, the garden also took its revenge. Tree trunks caused 1,810

accidents, and bird baths went on the rampage, attacking 311 people -

up from 117 victims in 1998. But the biggest danger was your wellington

boots: 5,615 accidents.

In films, people always hide from danger in the bathroom, but that’s a

dangerous option in real life. Toilet-roll holders alone accounted for

329 victims, while 787 people had to confront their sponge or loofah,

and there were 73 talcum powder victims. But beware the clothes basket,

which claimed 3,421 victims nationwide".

And so it goes on.

My point is simply to reiterate what Idun said in the title of this thread: "Life is  a risky business".

[Quillan]

Chancer,

The NZ thing is basically what you do when sailing, time of departure, place you're going to and time you expect to arrive. It is all computer based these days so when you arrive you normally call up to ask for a mooring and at the same time let them know to log you in. On a days cruise from one point to another I will give them the waypoints of my route as well.

For your cross France bike trip how about this for an idea, a blog. When Mrs Q and I traversed the English waterways system in the UK (on a two year sabbatical) blogs were not around then but if I were to do it again I think that is the way I would go. Not just to show we were OK but to keep anyone interested informed of what we had been up to.

You might be surprised how many people might be interested in following your trip. You don't have to put in an entry every day but say once a week you can tell everyone where you have been, what you have seen, even attach some photo's of your great adventure. At the end you could put in your following weeks route. Let one or two people know so if you're 'overdue' they can contact the authorities etc.

I am no expert in these blog things but I believe Wordpress for example allows you to make a 'private' blog, one that is only viewable by people you want to read it. This might suit you better as I know your are a 'private' sort of fella. The slight drawback is they have to be Wordpress members as well. This means it will not come up when Googled etc and nobody will know it exists unless they are a member that you have permitted to see it. I am sure there are other blog systems that do the same or similar.

If you have a tablet for example you can always find somewhere where there is free internet access and of course there is also McDonalds if push comes to shove. I posted about some map software for Android and IPads that allowed you to download quite a large area of IGN Carte de Randonnée maps (about 70km2) at a time that you might find interesting, a link to the thread below. You get a 7 day free trial, I have bought a years sub with them. Its like using a IGN map with the benefit of showing you exactly where you are.

http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/3017825/ShowPost.aspx#3017825

 

[Chancer]

I appreciate the spirit in which you suggested that Quillan but as you say I am in some ways at least a private person also I dont have a tablet and wouldnt want to carry one anyway, I only have an old type Nokia phone so no internet access via 3G or whatever its called, the advantage of it is though if I only switch it on once a day to send a text then the battery will last for a week, I dont even really want to carry a charger.

When I backpacked around the world I deliberately didnt take a mobile phone, the last thing I wanted was phone calls from my ex customers complaining about the company I had sold the business to, I used internet cafes where available to stay in touch and did send out a sort of blog but only to close friends and family, some of them shared it. I saw one person that had a portable computer with him, a Japanese, I expect that everybody would have one now and also a mobile phone

My friend at my destination may well post something on the forum of my whereabouts and progress and I am considering asking if any forum members would allow me to pitch my bivvy tent on their land, give me water and perhaps a shower along the route. 

Finding somewhere secure to pass the night on route where I wont be bothering anyone and wont be bothered myself will be an obstacle to overcome, yes I could use camp sites but the thought of paying €15 to sit bored in a bivuac all evening because I had to arrive during reception time when I could still be cycling doesnt appeal to me.

Actually I cant even sit in my tent, I can lie flat or lean upwards to about 20° so getting (un)dressed is a real challenge and usually results in a severe cramp [:'(]

But the thing is marvellous, it only weighs 500 grammes and even the sardines are aerospace grade alu, I bought it on ebay UK and when I saw the disgusting colours of it, purple and orange I said I bet this is made in France, it was and within 25kms of where I live!!

They call it a cycling tent but Marechal dont sell it in France, only the UK and Japan, the cycling tent they sell in France is probably 80 times the volume, just like a French medecine box!!!, the French one sleeps 2 people and also stores the bikes inside which is quite a good idea but its far too bulky and heavy for touring.

[Salty Sam]

[quote]

SS, I was typing this when your post appeared. I don’t know if you

are aware but EGNOS, a system that supplements GPS, was approved for SOL

(Safety of Life) use in 2011 for both land and sea emergency

organisations in Europe. It was also approved for ILS landings at

airports which do not have ILS equipment. 

Yes Q, well aware of EGNOS, and as with WAAS even though both are

compatible with each other, they suffer the disadvantage of not working

perfectly in undulating terrain or areas with large amounts of cover.

Bear in mind the system was primarily designed for aviation and maritime

use.

All the OS Explorer and IGN

maps are available for GPS units these days and I have used mine to

within 1M accuracy. That aside it is a tool and one should always carry a

proper map and decent compass along with a waterproof case. To be

honest if you are walking along a tight footpath on the edge of a drop

then both are pretty useless, your eyes are the most important ‘tool'.

All teams coming under the umbrella of the Mountain Rescue Committee, have access to

both GPS and digital OS, but reliance on GPS alone is never an option,

but something that is used in conjunction with conventional methodology

of map and compass. While I do agree with you that the eyes are your best tool on a tight footpath on the edge of a drop, unfortunately searches usually entail covering wide areas away from footpaths, and usually it is such areas well away from the 'maddening crowds' that are the preferred areas to spend our leisure time, as well as being the best areas for practising the art of navigation.

If you ever consider taking any of the Mountain Leadership qualifications, you'll have to do far better than being within 1M accuracy - without the use of GPS![:D][/quote]

---

[mint]

SS, thank you for your most interesting post.  Nothing like info from someone who's done it and been there [:D]

Idun, ATTENTION, I have sent you a PM but I am not sure whether you have read it via your email rather than the Forum's PM box?

[Salty Sam]

Thank you Sweet. That's very kind of you.

[:)]