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Fench vs. Uk benefits & Eastern europeans


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the 1st January 2014, a number of eastern European countries have the right to free movement throughout Europe, live and work etc. Unlike the UK, the french benefit system, "chomage" or "RSA" requires the person to have paid into the system in order to benefit, likewise for the carte-vitale....why is the UK unable to adapt its benefit system to a similar form...and hypothetically, what would happen if the entire population of Romania and Bulgaria decided to move to the UK and claim benefits, which they are entitled to do under EU treaty law? Who would pay the bill? Do the UK politicians actually want an influx of cheap labor, perhaps to kick start the economy?? Just an idea...
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For once the UK got there first - it's changing the rules, with effect from March I believe, so that people no longer become entitled as soon as they arrive.

EU law doesn't give people the right to just go and live wherever they like in the EU, it gives them the right to 'live AND WORK' where they like, an important difference.
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[quote user="EuroTrash"]For once the UK got there first [/quote]

Er actually it didn't.

Freedom to WORK and LIVE in Europe it is in PDF format.

France (along with many other EU member states EXCEPT the UK) accepted EU legislation into its own about six or seven years ago (might have been a bit longer I can't remember exactly when). You may remember that there was a very long thread, probably the longest in forum memory, on this subject when it was implemented in France. There was much lobbying of MP’s, letters to the government and to the British ambassador to France, a lot of people feared their healthcare would be removed. France changed its legislation slightly to allow those already here for a certain period of time to stay in the system. New immigrants (including those from the United Kingdom) would have to abide by the new legislation. In further threads over the years when people have asked about moving to France permanently this subject pops up.

Basically in many EU countries you just cannot turn up in another and expect health and social help unless you work or have a state pension from the EU member state of which you are a citizen and from which you came. You need to prove you can support yourself, pay into the state system (i.e. have a job) or have private health cover. So what the UK is doing is actually imbedding some of EU legislation in to its own but not letting on that’s what it is doing but makes it appear as if it came up with it all on its own. The Labour government did not accept this into UK legislation because they wanted immigrants but their 'excuse' was that it was peoples 'human right' to emigrate and 'better themselves'. We now know of course that this had nothing to do with it, it was all part of some sort of bizarre Labour plan.

One of many examples of the UK ‘cherry picking’ EU legislation.

 

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[quote user="monsieur macon"]and hypothetically, what would happen if the entire population of Romania and Bulgaria decided to move to the UK and claim benefits, which they are entitled to do under EU treaty law? Who would pay the bill? Do the UK politicians actually want an influx of cheap labor, perhaps to kick start the economy?? Just an idea...[/quote]

I'd ask MR Farage. He's been insisting for ages that the entire population of Bulgaria and Romania have their bags packed.

The truth is, it's harder than you think to get benefits. You cannot, even in the UK, arrive and sign up the next day, contrary to popular belief. And, in the event that you did, you'd have to prove "habitual residence" which means that you have to manage to live here for a period of time and prove you're settled here before you get anything...And you DO have to have paid into the system for access to certain benefits like JSA. If you haven't, you MAY still get income-based JSA, but having just done the sums on the government website, you'd get (if you managed to jump through the right hoops) about £112 a week maximum.

It came to light very recently (and there was a post on here) that the cost to the NHS of treating people who aren't necessarily entitled to NHS treatment was - in the great scheme of things - minimal. GP's said so.

Lastly, why all the worry about Bulgarians and Romanians? Have you the remotest idea how many Spaniards, Italians and Greeks have flooded into the UK since their countries were sucked into the downward spiral of recession? And has anyone any idea of the contribution these immigrants - and, indeed, many immigrants already here from Bulgaria and Romania - make in terms of the tax and NI contributions they make from being in gainful employment?

What is really galling is the assumption that people who come to the UK do so solely to get benefits.Of course, some do. They're a tiny minority.

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[quote user="monsieur macon"] what would happen if the entire population of Romania and Bulgaria decided to move to the UK and claim benefits, which they are entitled to do under EU treaty law? [/quote]

Houses in Bulgaria would become even cheaper for Brits to buy[6]

 

 

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I would have thought it simple to rule that when moving to another country.You are paid benefits at the rate of the country you have left and paid into for say five years while you work and build up a share in your new countries benefit  pot . Perhaps be required to  make a claim from the country they have left for those five years if a claim has to be made .

It would make people think twice about going for just what they can claim !   It makes no difference if its the UK or any other EU country If a generous system of "Free Money " is shown to exist and is there for the taking and on offer to millions of poor from throughout Europe then they are going to rush to take it .  All this at a time when the services of a country are  being slashed back due to a recession and are hardly able to meet the demands on it as it is . Shows the policy is pure madness .......and the EU who cant afford it are still planning to bring more poor from the former soviet union countries into the fold

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Could not have said it better Betty. But of course if you talk to Mr Farrage about them working he will say that they are 'stealing' British jobs and possibly working for less. It does in my mind beg the question what came first the immigrant or the job and proves some people will do anything to get a job unlike others if you accept his point of view.

What I did find funny on Fridays Daily Politics program that the UKIP representative said nobody wants to join the EU "it would be like turkeys voting for christmas" his words not mine. Then I see that in the Ukraine there are mass demonstrations about the government's decision not to join with over 100,000 people turning out in Kiev because they believe not being a member will damage their economy. There was also an anti EU demonstration in another part of the city at the same time which had only around 10,000 demonstrators. So I guess Mr Farrage, who never seems to allow the truth to stop a good scaremongering, will be saying that of course they want to join because another 45m (total poulation of the Ukraine) will want to come to the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25083801

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a political hot potato by any means......I guess the DM can get a little OTT about eastern Europeans, and from some of the posts on this thread, it does seem that its not just a case of turning up in the UK and "signing on" for the dole, or whatever it is called now....

There does though seem to be a general problem with the EU mega plan of expansion, bringing into the fold countries with such totally different economies and standards of living, yes the Greeks obviously now fall into this category. Is there not a risk of a race down to the bottom for labour? I know a number of sectors in France (nursing, building, some IT work, agricultural work etc) that already tender out to the lowest wage, or SMIC. Moreover, in the BTP sector, we have a lot of clandestine workers from all over, ready to do a days work for perhaps 20euros, or less!!! Of course, they are technically illegal immigrants...Germany is now going to instigate their own SMIC, any ideas on how much this will be???
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They are. And one of the reasons (people bleat occasionally about this being true in France, but, believe me, it's just as true in many sectors of the UK and, I'm sure, elsewhere) is that migrants are competing with migrants...because the qualified can't get jobs in the sectors they're qualified in.

In the UK, you can't be a nurse unless you get your qualifications ratified, which takes ages and involves potentially a fair bit of time, and expense, and possibly even some exams. So qualified, experienced nurses - the ones who can't jump through those hoops - are working as carers and home helps for minimum wage, usually doing long and unsocial hours. You can't teach, even if you have a PhD in your subject, unless you have GCSE Maths and Science at Grade A-C. So qualified, motivated teachers have to go to the time and expense of sitting GCSE's, and a fair few end up as classroom assistants. It's not only France that puts protectionist obstacles in the way of people getting jobs.

And those are the lucky ones. Most end up in catering and hospitality, or being au pairs. I've met many a hotel cleaner/porter/kitchen porter through my work, and most of them are degree-qualified, but working for (just about) minimum wage through agencies, where things have only improved due to a fairly significant legal action a few years back which exposed just how agencies were exploiting them. But they (the majority) are willing to do it because it's a job.

Believe me, the migrants (those who DO have a work ethic, and trust me they are the majority) who come to the UK may be on minimum wage, but by and large they'd rather have that than benefits. And they know that if they don't accept those terms, there are plenty of others (generally NOT Brits) who will...

The only two people in ten years whom I've met, and who were doing what they were qualified to do (except expats brought over by their own company) were an Italian couple working in IT. And, by their own admission, they had come to the UK fully expecting to be waiting tables or working in a coffee bar.

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I believe SMIC is controlled (well in France anyway) by the price index so it will differ from one country to another. I am not a great fan of "minimum wage" which the SMIC is and much prefer the minimum living wage which is of course higher but fairer in my opinion. The maximum minimum wage in the UK for example is £6.31 where it is considered by varous 'think tanks' that the minimum living wage outside London should be £7.45 and within London £8.55 ecluding expences. Unlike France of course which is limited to a 35 hour weeks there is no limit in hours for UK workers.
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So, these uninvited immigrant workers or gastarbeiters are doing low skill jobs and thus keeping the largely low skilled native born work force on the dole, which they no doubt regard with equamity as they get out of bed just in time to go down to the pub, then to the betting shop, then to the dole office to sign on!!

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I noticed a few days ago our local "Big Issue " seller is no longer around . He has been replaced on his pitch by a guy I assume has recently arrived .

He is calling out to passers by " Big Issue Man "....  " Big Issue Woman " ...which  I imagine is what  somebody has told him to say ...He didn't appear to be doing much trade but his status is "Self Employed " so the Council is duty bound to find him and his family housing or pay the  housing benefit rate to a private landlord now we have him living among us .

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just a small precision: nursing in France is in fact well paid and a respectable career....although it is dog-hard to actually become a fully qualified nurse, costing a fair few euros and a very tough entry exam...i guess this effectively closes the door to the vast majority of cheap foreign workers...I've been out of the UK for a very long time, but its just astonishing how much it has changed in ten yrs....and yes, i agree, many immigrants seem to be working in hospitality, catering, taxis etc....low skilled, unqualified sectors.....I wonder how many of these jobs the UK can provide.....? How many window cleaners does a small town need???
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Nursing in the UK is dog-hard to get into, too. I guess what the statistics fail to tell us (because EU workers don't have any "controls" imposed in their entry and exit from the UK) is just how high is the rate of turnover in people arriving AND LEAVING the UK. Sure, there are a core of people who arrive and stay, and over time the number of "stayers" increases. However, there are huge numbers of migrant workers who come, stay for a couple of years and then go back. Some, because that was always their intention, some because they can't hack it and some because they eventually get the chance of work back home. At least half of my Facebook contacts are ex-students of mine who have left the UK to go home...to Brazil, Japan, Finland, Lithuania, Hungary, Russia, the Czech Republic.....

Not all migrant workers lack skills...in fact, many (as I pointed out) are highly skilled, but denied access to the jobs they are well-qualified to do, so they end up doing unskilled jobs because that's all that is on offer. However, there are plenty of those jobs available simple because of the "churn". And many do manage to work their way up the ladder, or they start their own businesses. There must be plenty of jobs around if you're up for it, because many of those I know have more than one!

My current window cleaner is South African. Can we deduce anything from this? Probably not.

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[quote user="Frederick"]I noticed a few days ago our local "Big Issue " seller is no longer around . He has been replaced on his pitch by a guy I assume has recently arrived .

He is calling out to passers by " Big Issue Man "....  " Big Issue Woman " ...which  I imagine is what  somebody has told him to say ...He didn't appear to be doing much trade but his status is "Self Employed " so the Council is duty bound to find him and his family housing or pay the  housing benefit rate to a private landlord now we have him living among us .

[/quote]

You know he has a family?[:-))] You know his accommodation situation? [:-))] Yet you don't know whether he is a new arrival or not.... I'm puzzled. Anyway, if he IS recently arrived, whether self-employed or not, he will need to have been here for a while to be able to demonstrate habitual residence in order to qualify for any benefits, including housing benefit. The council has no greater obligation to find him accommodation than it does for anyone else, if he doesn't meet the criteria. If he does, and as a self-employed person he is legally obliged to pay NI contributions (and tax, if he earns enough to be liable), then he's paying into the system and is as entitled to assistance as anyone else.

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And when the Universal Credit starts single people will be on the equivalent of over £9 per hour (£350/35) which is above the minimum UK wage which makes it hardly worth their while taking these 'minimum wage' manual jobs so we may well need these immigrants to sweep floors and clean windows. [;-)]
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There was a piece in the Times the other day about problems in Germany with the large influx of Roma. It highlighted one particular case - a young woman of 25, who had 7 children and an 8th on the way. In her home country, her monthly child benefit was around £112, but in Germany it was around £1400.

Many German cities have written to Ms Merkle asking for additional funds to house their new populations. The city where the young woman mentioned above lived had allocated two tower blocks to house the Roma much to the chagrin of the local residents.

Now it's possible that the article was slanted in some way and painted a blacker picture than reality. However, there is a worrying trend in some EU countries - growing support for EU-sceptic and/or far right parties - which doesn't bode well for the future. Stories like this, plus the other urban myths which are common currency in some parts of the media, continue to fan the flames.
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What's rarely taken into account by the media, or by us, for that matter, and certainly not by the vast majority of migrants coming to the UK, is that there's a huge misconception about life in the UK.

If you live on tuppence a week in your own country and your friends, the media and so on tell you that you can earn good money (or get good benefits) in another country, it holds a huge appeal.

I believe that what people don't understand is that people are NOT told that there's a reason. Especially in the big urban areas and cities like London. I'd like to hazard a guess that in Romania or Bulgaria the cost of living is nowhere near as high as in virtually anywhere in the UK. Especially London. If someone tells you you can earn ten times what you'd earn at home, of course that's incredibly attractive. However, if it's going to cost you twenty or thirty times more to pay your rent and buy food and clothes, the sums then don't add up. Once you're here (or anywhere else, for that matter) and you discover this, it's often too late.

Look how long it's taken for some of these messages to get through to people considering a move to France. Encouraged by all the media hype, those who haven't been directly involved or following the situation closely still believe they can buy a huge house with loads of land for tuppence and that everything else is (if not exactly the same as the UK) easy, cheap and straightforward. It's only been in the relatively recent past that folk have started to issue warnings about the cost of health care, building and renovating, running a business or the difficulty of finding a job. There's probably a "Complete UK" forum somewhere where Poles are issuing these same warnings to their compatriots, as the influx of Poles over the past five or six years has dried to a trickle, and I'm sure the same must be true (or will be true) for other EU countries.

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Funny really when you look back. I can remember when us Brits were not too popular in France, buying up all the houses and allegedly pushing prices up. I can remember locally, in Quillan, how the French protested because they had rounded up all the problem 'English' families for various villages who were living in social housing and putting them all in one place in Quillan so they could 'keep an eye on them'. When I go to Perpignan to watch the rugby I drive through a 'rough' area where all the 'Arabs' seem to live. I can remember the corrupt building boom in Spain and the fact local councils were selling off new homes that were built for the poor at inflated prices to the British (and Germans). Never read the Spanish press but I suspect there were the same sort of stories going around about the immigrants. I don't think blaming 'Johnny Foreigner' is restricted to just the UK. Likewise it is very simple to pigeonhole groups like the Roma and the Romanians, the two are quite different, one group are Gypsies with a unique culture and the other is just the same as the rest of us. Go to London, Brick Lane and the area around it, full of Asians, some living in hand to mouth poverty working in sweatshops. Before them were the Jews and before them were the Huguenots.

Personally, with regards to the Romanians, I believe that those that wanted to leave their country have already arrived at their destination and have been there quite a while. As I have said before we have Romanian families living in Quillan, they all work and in some cases have integrated better than some English I know. They don't appear to need a Romanian version of an English Library, a Pudding Club, Curry Night etc every week where they can sit, gossip and generally slag each other off. I have a feeling that in the UK it will be quite interesting as to just how many will actually arrive given the massive increase in manufacturing in Romania since they started their entry into the EU. Perhaps it may be better before we 'condemn' them to wait and see what really happens.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Frederick"]I noticed a few days ago our local "Big Issue " seller is no longer around . He has been replaced on his pitch by a guy I assume has recently arrived .

He is calling out to passers by " Big Issue Man "....  " Big Issue Woman " ...which  I imagine is what  somebody has told him to say ...He didn't appear to be doing much trade but his status is "Self Employed " so the Council is duty bound to find him and his family housing or pay the  housing benefit rate to a private landlord now we have him living among us .

[/quote]

You know he has a family?[:-))] You know his accommodation situation? [:-))] Yet you don't know whether he is a new arrival or not.... I'm puzzled. Anyway, if he IS recently arrived, whether self-employed or not, he will need to have been here for a while to be able to demonstrate habitual residence in order to qualify for any benefits, including housing benefit. The council has no greater obligation to find him accommodation than it does for anyone else, if he doesn't meet the criteria. If he does, and as a self-employed person he is legally obliged to pay NI contributions (and tax, if he earns enough to be liable), then he's paying into the system and is as entitled to assistance as anyone else.

[/quote]

A court case brought by Roma determined that being a seller of the Big Issue gives self employment status . Roma are now using the Big Issue  to claim the benefits that self employment status brings .... Selling the Big Issue gives rights to assistance as a homeless person .

 http://www.bigissue.org.uk/get-involved/how-become-vendor

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I am well aware of the case in question, Frederick. Just slightly surprised that you seem to know so many personal details about the Big Issue seller you mentioned. You now, apparently, know that he's a Roma. Hats off to you for taking the time to get to know the bloke so well. It must be reassuring to him, as a new arrival, to meet someone as welcoming as you.

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