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Britain sleeping walking out of EU


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[quote user="PaulT"]Q did not believe that VAT was charged on exports outside of the EU so the company exporting to a non EU country, i.e. UK if it opted out, would not charge VAT prior to export.[/quote]

You pay VAT if you are in the EU or not the difference is you can claim it back if you are in the EU and VAT is applied by another EU country when we are talking business to business. That is what the bit is for on the back of a VAT return although the majority of VAT returns are done online and have been for quite a few years now. Technically VAT within and without the EU is classed as two different things. The VAT on goods moving within the EU is called acquisition tax which is charged at the same rate as VAT. Most people call both VAT as it is simpler. Goods coming into the EU (UK for example) attract Custom Duty as well which can be between 0 and 85% depending on what it is. Tobacco and alcohol products also attract Excise Duty from non EU countries.

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Rather than negotiating their way out of the EU, I think Britain should be hustling to make big changes in the constitution of the EU.

Our government doesn't like the terms of its membership?  Our MEPs voted with the rest to make the rules and conditions. It's the top of the EU tree that needs pruning. There needs to be a re-evaluation of how this unwieldly and costly machine can be made to work for every member country. In principal I think the countries of Europe joining together to create a partnership in trade was a good one. Maybe it should have stopped there, I don't know, but I am not in favour of Britain withdrawing its membership. Aren't we team players?

Naive, moi? 

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[quote user="Quillan"]Problem is you can read a lot about all this stuff Betty and in reality is all "maybe, possibly, could be" etc. etc. The reality is nobody really knows for sure until it happens and you can bet your last pound that nobody has even thought of a Plan B if there was a yes vote to leave. It was reported in the newspapers a month back that Honda would move out of the UK if there was a yes vote. Toyota has moved their hybrid manufacturing out of the UK to Brazil although that 'line' is now making another car whose name escapes me. They have also opened a new massive parts factory just outside Madrid which is three times the required size. Perhaps they are also planning ahead, who knows.A comment in the Daily Mail and Honda I did find funny about Honda possibly leaving the UK if there was a yes vote was when somebody wrote “and good riddance, we can build our own cars and sell them at home”, somebody replied “yes Allegro’s, Marina’s and look how good they were". I also read that the Mini (now owned by BMW) is still built in the UK at the original plant and their production is very productive and efficient. Only the estate version (Countryman) is made outside the UK.[/quote]

Azzit happens, Honda is one of my clients. Apart from manufacturing in the UK, they have their EMEA HQ just down the road from me. Without divulging any confidential information, I think the powers that be at Honda have other things on their minds than whether or not the UK stays in the EU.

's funny, though, that it's only just dawning on some that leaving the EU (or not) needs someone to address the thorny issue of what happens next whereas most seem to have grasped within nanoseconds that the vote for Scotland's independence and their own suggestions as to what happens afterwards are riddled with more holes than a rusty colander. It's easy to find it risible that the SNP have made sweeping assumptions about currency union, European Union and how to divvy up the debt, yet there's a hard core of people in the UK that have jumped on the Farage bandwagon with nary a concern about what they're going to do for a paddle once we're up that particular creek.

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If the UK did exit the EU, and all EU funding was withdrawn and ERDF-funded projects stopped overnight, I think a lot of people would be shocked to discover what they'd chucked out with the bathwater. IMHO some ERDF projects are a stupid waste of money but that's down to the people in the UK who design and run the projects. And some ERDF projects have made a huge difference to deprived areas (I'm thinking Sheffield for example which has had millions of EU money pumped into regeneration) and got people back into work. Maybe the UK does pay in as much as it gets out, I haven't a clue and I wouldn't believe the figures if a politician gave them to me, but I don't believe half or even a tenth of these initiatives would have happened if they'd depended solely on UK resources. I think a lot of the improvements the UK has seen in the last couple of decades have been EU-driven because for all its faults the EU has been proactive about development and investment for the future. Without the stimulus of EU grants and funding up for grabs, I doubt local authorities and UK government would ever have aspired to half the schemes that have happened.
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I don't think enough has been done over the years by the pro EU groups. When I drive around where I live in France there are loads of roadwork’s and social housing projects being built. When I stop and look at the panels saying who's doing what and who's paying there is always an EU grant attached something I don't seem to remember seeing in the UK. It is not that the UK does not get any money for the same type of projects it is just that they don't seem publicize it and if they do it is not where anyone can see it.

By the way I love Salmond and his comments "Of course if we leave the union we will keep the British pound". That is a mighty big assumption on his behalf and if England decides to let him keep the British pound am sure they will extract some form of massive tax either directly or indirectly. I also wonder how the are going to pay for everyone’s new passport, driving licence, DVLA equivalent, change of car registration (new number plates), the post and being they won't be part of the Schengen area will we see a new 'Hadrian’s Wall'? On the plus side of course it will create a whole raft of new jobs but they will be administrative jobs and have to pay for out of the public purse and who is going to really pay for it (no guesses).

Back to the EU, we have an extradition with the EU and are a member of the EU police force. Will we see all the thieves, murders and gangsters running off to Spain with their loot and no way of getting them back? There are loads of little things if you sit and really think about it. All I can say is when contemplating which way to vote be careful what you wish for.

Oh I forgot another little comment from a UKIP support that made me laugh when the subject of Expats living in EU countries was "Bring them all home", well I don't want to go 'home', I am very happy where I am as is probably a lot of Expats currently living inside the EU. The context in which it was said made you feel we had been banished from the UK to the EU which I thought was a blo*dy cheek.

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Thing is, Hoddy, whether you're rich or poor, whether it's your own canoe or you bought it on HP, economics is the root of the problem. Or the issue, even if it's not a problem. Or at least, money is. If people don't make and sell goods, offer services or exploit /sell natural resources, they don't have money. That applies to individuals, companies and, eventually, governments, who rely on the former to pay taxes which fund everything else. We need to make friends with other countries to encourage them to buy our stuff, not fall out with them all so they take their business elsewhere. If we leave the EU it will inevitably raise all sorts of other economic problems which, at the moment, don't seem to have been thought through. Well, maybe the powers that be are thinking them through, but not the Great British Public.

as an aside, there was an interesting interview this morning with the Romanian Ambassador on the back of a move by half a dozen UK councils (including Westminster and my neighbouring council, Slough, to press the Government not to change the laws on aggressive begging. He pointed out that Romania has an active workforce of 7 million, of which 3 million are already living overseas. However, he went on to elaborate that there are more Romanians in Spain, Germany, France and Italy than in the UK, and that he doubts very much that the UK is the destination of choice for Romanians and he anticipates no great rush to come here on Jan 1st 2014. He also made the point that Romanians are not all Roma, and (more importantly) Roma are certainly not all Romanian, and that most Romanians who wanted to come to the UK have been doing so for the last 7 years, and are largely professionals and taxpayers. I mention this because it's currently being cited as one of the main reasons for renegotiating just about everything EU related, and I bet it's like the damp squib that was the "year 2000" bug.

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[quote user="Hoddy"]All the opinions expressed so far have been couched in economic terms. I don't understand economics. We need enough to live on of course, but I wonder if we would be happier if we were poorer, but paddling our own canoe. Hoddy[/quote]

What sort of things were you thinking about there Hoddy, a couple of examples perhaps?

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Here is one that made me laugh.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516577/A-loo-kitchen--inside-shed-migrant-calls-home-Planning-officers-discovery-investigating-buildings-fell-foul-local-laws.html

Interesting how the DM and some of its readers can have double standards. This guy is a Czech who is living in this single room. He does not draw benefit nor does he live in social housing and he has been in the UK, just like many Romanians, for many years. Now look at the bottom and the readers comments, quite different to those aimed at Romanians or should I say Roma because many of the Brits are too stupid to be able to differentiate between the two.

The Romanian President did point out that there are 25 other (apart from the UK and their own country) member states so why does the UK think they are all going there to live. He was, according to some, quite rude but then I get his point. All these people bleating on about Romanians moving to the UK and slagging off his country and his fellow countrymen. I think he has shown a lot of restraint under the circumstances as personally my attitude would be "s*d off the lot of you and leave us alone, at least our economy is growing unlike the UK".

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Following your advice I looked at the article, and I couldn't see any comments that where derogatory to Romanians. As for your stupid Brits comment, well it does seem to be a bit of theme in your postings, but I'm not convinced that all the intelligent ones immigrated to France.
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 I note nobody has mentioned that one third of German voters appear to support a party that is sick and tired of supporting the weak members of the EU and would like to see it break up. When and if the UK leave the EU then it may just be the incentive for Germany to follow  with others doing the same and a new smaller Northern EU formed that does have to not prop up the rest .

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[quote user="Hoddy"]All the opinions expressed so far have been couched in economic terms. I don't understand economics. We need enough to live on of course, but I wonder if we would be happier if we were poorer, but paddling our own canoe.

Hoddy[/quote]

I suspect that we would certainly end up (eventually) poorer, but not paddling our own canoe, outside the EU. Globalisation bites.

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If the people of the UK vote to leave then that's what democracy is all about. Also I believe we have more information now about what goes on than we did when we, me included, voted to join. I think Frederick's comment is very valid.

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[quote user="NickP"]Following your advice I looked at the article, and I couldn't see any comments that where derogatory to Romanians. As for your stupid Brits comment, well it does seem to be a bit of theme in your postings, but I'm not convinced that all the intelligent ones immigrated to France.[/quote]

You missed the point or just didn’t think about it. Because the person is not a Romanian it seems OK to people although the guy is only doing the same as the Latvian's, Poles and Romanians. Because he is Czech it is OK and people round on the fella who is renting him the room, making assumptions that the landlord is not paying tax. I didn't see the same comments when they talked about all the Poles who have moved to Slough and living in Garages at the bottom of peoples gardens. What I thought others may grasp is the complete contrast when talking about people from another country i.e. Romania (although they don't mention the other two countries) that is inside the EU and somebody who comes from a non EU country. All of a sudden he is not a problem, the landlord is. Also he has (as UKIP like to point out) stolen’ a job from a British person. Lucky Romanians are not black there would be a lot of people locked up by now if they were.

Your right people who have moved to France may not all be intelligent but it seems they are far less bigoted and simple minded in their views than some who still live in the UK. No personal offence intended.

 

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Your right people who have moved to France may not all be intelligent but it seems they are far less bigoted and simple minded in their views than some who still live in the UK. No personal offence intended.

 

[/quote]

And maybe they are far less likely to be effected.

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[quote user="NickP"]If the people of the UK vote to leave then that's what democracy is all about. Also I believe we have more information now about what goes on than we did when we, me included, voted to join. I think Frederick's comment is very valid.[/quote]Why is it not possible for those wanting a referendum to put their case honestly and fact based. Why must they always resort to emotional arguments rather than deal with the facts. The same also seems to apply to those arguing against the referendum.

I am happy to accept the majority view on any issue provided I feel that the majority have made their decision based on facts and not emotion.

With regard to the EU it seems obvious that the EU has grown too quickly and needs to listen more to its ordinary citizens rather than to the politicians. The EU needs reforming and hopefully that will come sooner rather than later. The idea of a federal Europe seems to have been dropped for now.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Your right people who have moved to France may not all be intelligent but it seems they are far less bigoted and simple minded in their views than some who still live in the UK. No personal offence intended.

 [/quote]

This is possibly one of the funniest things I have ever read on any forum for francophiles. It IS a joke, right?

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Betty I do understand economics at that very basic level. I should have said that I’m not competent to judge what the economic outcomes would be if we left the EU. It seems to me that people on both sides have a gut reaction and then find some ‘facts’ from the internet to back them up.

I think that people who want to leave may be feeling that government is too far removed, not only in the UK, but in Europe too.

I was just musing in my earlier post wondering if people would accept a lower standard of living, at least for a while, if it meant that they would feel that they had more say in what was going on.

Hoddy
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[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Quillan"]

Your right people who have moved to France may not all be intelligent but it seems they are far less bigoted and simple minded in their views than some who still live in the UK. No personal offence intended.

 [/quote]


This is possibly one of the funniest things I have ever read on any forum for francophiles. It IS a joke, right?

[/quote]

Well sort of if you read the comments in the Daily Mail whenever the issue of Romanian immigrants comes up they normally can't tell the difference between a Romanian and a Roma. They are quite bigoted in their views and tend to end their comment by telling people to vote UKIP.

Expats living in France (or other EU countries) would be, to coin a UKIP phrase from the TV, “like a turkey voting for Christmas” if they voted for the UK to leave the EU. Mind you that’s not really an option for them as many will not be able to vote anyway. I did read that some MP wants all expats to be able to vote and he also wants EU nationals currently living in the UK to be able to vote which to me seems rather strange.

 

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[quote user="Nelson"]

Quillan

Could you please point me to the data that says the UK economy is not growing or is this another of your made up facts that cannot be substantiated.

As for not meaning to offend, you have offended me.

[/quote]

By comparison to Romania which I was talking about the UK growth rate is virtually non existent. The increase in UK grown for last month was about 0.8% whilst Romania's growth rate was about 1.6% and increasing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24668687

Sorry you took offence but as I said non was intended.

 

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Can I compare the "recent" growth in members of the EU to the introduction of comprehensive education that happened in the '70s.

It is my humble opinion that rather than improving the lot of the less able/less academic/more practical (yes, I know the jargon that existed then) and improved the overall level of life, it mearly diluted and lowered the standard of the median group. For the more able they succeeded no matter what. For the monied then they just went into a private education.

The expansion of the EU, rather that enhance the lives of those within, has, or will, I fear reduce the lives of the median. Granted that this is only a gut feeling.

This thread very much criticises the "coming out" protagonists because of the lack of an understanding of what will happen if we do. May I add that perhaps we really don't know what will happen if we stay in !!

NB - I wouldn't yet support Mr Farage's party but feel that changes to the present situation must be made.

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Quillan "You pay VAT if you are in the EU or not the difference is you can claim it back if you are in the EU and VAT is applied by another EU country when we are talking business to business".

Absolute tosh Q.

Exports from the EU are VAT free provided proof of export is provided. No proof of export = the seller has to pay the VAT retrospectively (and try and claim it back from his customer).

Within the EU, what you have written is broadly (and I stress broadly) correct.

Believe me I have exported from across the EU to almost every country in the world (with the exception of embargo countries of course).
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