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British exit from EU 2016/17!!!!!


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[quote user="sweet 17"] 

Well, here is one expat who do not think of the UK as a "dead duck" and I think NickP has also made a similar negative point regarding the UK.

[/quote]

As my memory isn't all that great these days, maybe you could be so kind as to remind me of any negativity by me towards the UK?

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As already mentioned: i wanted to discuss the issue of legitimate concerns about an eventual exit of UK from the EU. Anyone can draw up a best of/worst of top ten list for the UK and many people no doubt have personal reasons for why they find themselves living abroad. All that aside, i'm legitimately concerned about issues such as health care and social security if the UK leaves, as these will have to be renegotiated between French and UK governments. Pretending that it will be business as usual is in my opinion naive. The French state does not owe anything to UK citizens, be that health care etc if the UK leaves the EU....if you have worked and paid into the system then fair enough, but all that could be about to change. That is my concern. Becoming a French national is one way around this, but i doubt weather all UK ex-pats have this option available.
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[quote user="NickP"][quote user="sweet 17"] 

Well, here is one expat who do not think of the UK as a "dead duck" and I think NickP has also made a similar negative point regarding the UK.

[/quote]

As my memory isn't all that great these days, maybe you could be so kind as to remind me of any negativity by me towards the UK?

[/quote]

Ah, Nick, forgive me if I have misunderstood you.  That's the trouble of being unable to see more than one post when you are writing your reply.  I see, checking back, that you were only quoting some expats of your acquaintance when you said that the UK was going "down the pan".

And, Wools, how predictable you are![:D]  I put that last remark in to see if you'd rise to the bait.............  Dear Wools, what would I do if you left France and the Forum and are no longer there as an endless source of amusement and entertainment for me?[:P]

Maybe I'd have to become an "in-pat" too?

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M. Macon. I am getting very confused by your posts. From what you have said, I think that you are married to a french lady and have had children in France, who I take it are still young, as you spoke to the Prefecture about their nationality. Although you should really have spoken to the Tribunal d'Instance.

And with children, I imagine that you are working. And if you are working, then why would any of it be a problem to you anyway. Surely you pay your cotisations and impots like everyone else and with a french wife can easily be in the system.

OR have I got all this wrong?

The future of the EU ofcourse concerns us as we need that french pension to keep on coming to the UK. Who knows what will happen though, I shall lose not one wink of sleep over this.

When we first got to France we had to have carte de sejours and proof of income etc, which was fair enough. Surely it would be a similar system if the UK left?

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[quote user="monsieur macon"]... as these will have to be renegotiated between French and UK governments.

[/quote]

Thats the point the UK can't negotiate with the French because it is not the French who can say yes or no anymore. It would be a negotiation between the UK and the EU as these are EU rulings.

The thing is if the Tories are not lying (well more to the point Cameron) then there will be a referendum in 2017 and that, as far as a politicians word goes, is set in stone. If the UK leaves some changes can be pretty quickly implimented like pension changes, denial of healthcare to UK pensioners, taxing UK pensions inside the EU etc, others will take a little longer like say passports and driving licences which I quess will be changed as and when they come up for renewal. For those that may think of taking French citizenship it is not something you can just sign a bit of paper, as somebody said it can take a couple of years. So actually it does pay to start thinking seriously about it now and be ready just in case.

Personally I think the K has a lot more to lose by leaving but as somebody said how an idividual votes is up to them.

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Total unfounded scaremongering. Denial of health care? Why, if you work here and pay your dues you get what you are entitled to. I can't believe all this propaganda, don't you think Brits lived abroad before the EU. Well they did; and they survived very well, and some were pensioners. Still if your living here and working illegally then you get what you deserve, same as if you turn up in the UK and try to claim what your not entitled to.

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[quote user="NickP"]Total unfounded scaremongering. Denial of health care? Why, if you work here and pay your dues you get what you are entitled to. I can't believe all this propaganda, don't you think Brits lived abroad before the EU. Well they did; and they survived very well, and some were pensioners. Still if your living here and working illegally then you get what you deserve, same as if you turn up in the UK and try to claim what your not entitled to.
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I was thinking of pensioners, not those that work and pay their tax etc who would basically continue as before although they might need a residency permit like before. It is not up to France to negotiate, it is up to the EU, France will not have a say in the matter.

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[quote user="richard51"]And there is the matter that UK pensioners get their healthcare in France paid for by the UK. Why would France want to stop that?

[/quote]

Perhaps the UK would want to stop it....

It might also wish not to index-link pensions as is the case with countries such as Canada and Australia

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Q wrote "Well no not really. In all these countries there are rich and poor states which is the reason to federalise, the rich support the poor and we all go forward together and everyone benefits."

Isn't this the Communist philosophy (although not in practice) - those with something give it to those who have nothing. So the ones with something lose and those with nothing win - wonder if those who lose see it as going forward together and everyone benefits? Glad to see that the German public are delighted to bail out the likes of Greece and Cyprus.

Assuming Scotland goes its own way is not the difference between the New UK and Scotland that the New UK would negotiate a leaving date and Scotland leaving the UK effectively straight after the vote although actually 'unstitching' from the rest of the UK be a matter between Scotland and the New UK?

Unless it is a government ension ex-pats pension will be taxed in France, they will spend what they have left in France - so why would France want to say 'go back to the UK and pay your taxes and money there?
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[quote user="PaulT"]Q wrote "Well no not really. In all these countries there are rich and poor states which is the reason to federalise, the rich support the poor and we all go forward together and everyone benefits."

Isn't this the Communist philosophy ?[/quote]

I thought it was Christian:Matthew 19:2   "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven"
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Trouble is Norman the christian faith like all "faiths" doesn't practice what it preaches. Charging to go into churches etc. what's that all about? I don't agree with communism either, but I think it would be a slightly better option if they were the only choices, thankfully they aren't. [:)]

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[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="richard51"]And there is the matter that UK pensioners get their healthcare in France paid for by the UK. Why would France want to stop that?
[/quote]
Perhaps the UK would want to stop it....
It might also wish not to index-link pensions as is the case with countries such as Canada and Australia
[/quote]The UK would no longer be under the obligation to index-link pensions for EU residents if it left the UK. As this is the case for UK pensioners living elsewhere there is no guarantee that the index linking would continue
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Now  Brussels has announced that UK Council Tax should be raised to tackle the rise in UK  house prices... When can a reduction in property linked taxes be expected in France and elsewhere for people who have seen their house prices drop ?

What planet do these people think they live on ?....If they want to see people who could not make up their minds about in or out of the EU for the UK turn against them . They are going the right way about it IMO .

Quote :

Reforms to the taxation of land and property should be considered to alleviate distortions in the housing market.

"At the moment, increasing property values are not translated into higher property taxes as the property value roll has not been updated since 1991 and taxes on higher value property are lower than on lower value property in relative terms due to the regressivity of the current rates and bands within the council tax system."

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[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="PaulT"]Q wrote "Well no not really. In all these countries there are rich and poor states which is the reason to federalise, the rich support the poor and we all go forward together and everyone benefits." Isn't this the Communist philosophy ?[/quote]

I thought it was Christian:Matthew 19:2   "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven"[/quote]Doesn't that mean that Jesus might be described by certain members of this forum as  a pink liberal do-gooder?
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Fred - I think they are talking about people with 'mansions' where the calculations per square metre mean they could be paying less than Joe Bloggs in his average three bed semi. I haven't looked but I would think that likes of The Daily Wail has put it in a way that leaves ordinary people thinking they are going to be hit with a massive tax bill demanded by the EU.

Paul - There are some UK people who get a pension that MUST be taxed in the UK i.e. armed forces and the police are a couple of examples that come to mind and that is UK law. If they live in France they will have to pay tax again in France if the UK leaves the EU and automatically the Dual Taxation Treaty. This would happen in any EU country, I am just using France as an example because that is where we live, Spain would be the same. At the moment you just attach your P60 to the French tax form, put the amount in the box and they don't tax it. A long time ago the treaty was negotiated by country but since the early 2000's it is negotiated with the EU as a whole.

 

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RE the pensions, IF they stopped them being increased and it was going to mean that life was too difficult, well move.

Are people that intransigent that they won't move? We would certainly

move back to France if the french pension was at risk and without a moments hesitation.

Incidentally french pensions have been frozen this year. No rise until Oct 2015 or so I believe, we'll see what they say next year! in the past there would have been one early 2014 and then early 2015.

 Still not the first time we have been hit with draconian pay freezes in France, back then Mitterand did it, and then with the salaries frozen dead and later only being allowed to go up by teeny weeny amounts, say 0.05% or LESS [:-))] when my brother would be moaning that BT had only offered 6%.

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Who says the dual taxation treaty will not be renegotiated, if it is as you state (proof would be good) then the thieves are the French Authorities as if you've already paid tax how in hell can they take it again. By the way British pensioners in the USA get pension increases as do pensioners in Jamaica,  

A list of double taxation countries, you will notice that not all of them are in the EU, So lets end the propaganda and wait until we get proof of the situation.

    Australia

    Canada

    France

    Germany

    Ireland

    Japan

    New Zealand

    Netherlands

    South Africa

    Spain

    Sweden

    Switzerland

    United States of America

List of countries were pension increases are paid, amazingly enough not all are in the EU.

Barbados

Bermuda

Bosnia-Herzegovina

Croatia

Guernsey

Isle of Man

Israel

Jamaica

Jersey

Mauritius

Montenegro

Philippines

Serbia

Turkey

United States of America

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

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I am sorry Nick but I really don't know how to make it plainer. With regards to the 27 member states of the EU there is a Dual Tax Treaty BUT not as individual countries like before BUT now as the EU as a whole. If a country outside the EU wants to make a Dual Tax Treaty with say France or Spain they can't they have to make it with the EU. Then all 27 member states would automatically have a Dual Tax Treaty with said country. I would think your first list is quite old because rather than have Germany, France, Spain, Netherlands, Ireland and Sweden is should now just say EU (EEA) which would add another 21 countries to your list. The reason for going down this route is because of previous conflicts between different EU member states.

The pension list you gave is correct however you forgot to mention that these are countries outside the EU (EEA) which surprisingly of course are not included in the list. The following link will give you the whole story from the DWP http://www.dwp.gov.uk/international/benefits/state-pension/ You will notice that Australia, New Zealand and Canada are not on the list. I have to admit I didn't think the US would be on it but it appears it is.

 

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All this is of course guesswork. The UK government is of course trying to make economies and one area which gives a flavour of how those of us living in France might be seen and treated is the history of the Winter Fuel Payment. This originally was not a cold weather payment but intended to compensate in a year when pensions were not increased and intended for all pensioners.

However the Tory lackeys in   right-wing press deliberately confused the issue, pouring scorn on the idea of someone in France needing this, and it is being withdrawn.

That is an example which does not bode well for the future of the UK paying for health care in France or index-linking pensions.

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Q, I believe that where an EU country had a double taxation treaty in force with a non-EU/EEA country before the EU wide policy was adopted they were allowed to continue that agreement.

Once again this thread is becoming victim to Whatifism. The truth is that none us know what would happen if the UK did leave the EU.  Only when exit terms are negotiated will we know exactly what the terms will be. In the same way none of us know what terms will be negotiated if Scotland votes Yes in September. The one thing that is sure that any information we get will be slanted by the viewpoint of the person giving it to us.

 

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I did say a while back that nobody knows for certain until it happens. All I have done is to raise issues that concern EU/EEA members and that these issues MAY be different SHOULD the UK vote to leave. Personally I hope it doesn't because I believe it is much better for the UK to stay than go.

I am not to sure about negotiating exit terms, I would have thought, a bit like the Scots and their referendum, you're either in or out. The UK may of course decide to join the European Free Trade Association although in many way I would consider this as being taxation without representation as far as the EU goes as the same charges will be made and the same EU laws have to be applied as if you're an EU member but with no vote.

All that aside I am a bit disappointed at the pro European group within the UK. Whilst Farrage and his cronies are banging away it would be nice to see a bit more banging on the drum for staying in the EU. Mind you there has not been much drum banging by the NO group in Scotland either, just a load of threats which are not the way to win people over.

PS I admit I do have an interest in that I have a deferred military pension that I will have to take next year and will have to pay tax on in the UK and I also have a private pension which I will be taking at the same time. I don't relish seeing most of it disappearing into both the UK and French government tax regimes.

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The situation with the Scottish referendum is that if there is a Yes vote then negotiations will start to settle the terms. The SNP have suggested 18 months for these talks with separation being in March 2016. Many commentators think that they will take longer than that because there may be a change of Uk government in May next year.

The only party that campaigned on a pro-EU ticket was the Lib-dems and they had a disastrous result. I do think that if the UK leaves the EU then the double taxation treaties will be carried over. After all they were in place long before the EU.
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[quote user="Quillan"]

I am sorry Nick but I really don't know how to make it plainer. With regards to the 27 member states of the EU there is a Dual Tax Treaty BUT not as individual countries like before BUT now as the EU as a whole.

[/quote]

 

Q could you please point me to this treaty because the ones I have been using up until now have been the bilateral agreement between the UK and France (2011 IIRC) and between France and Germany.  I would be amazed if it were even possible to devise such an all encompassing treaty given that tax laws in individual member states are so different.  However I will await your link to prove me wrong.

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