The trouble with France...

[woolybanana]

This article only scrapes the surface, unfortunately:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10868379/A-new-French-revolution-is-about-to-rip-apart-the-EU.html

[Quillan]

Pretty good, I think he has nailed the primary problems on the head. Strangely I said something to a guest about my French car being shite and he was terribly offended saying that French made cars were the best in the world. It gave me great pleasure to point out that his current car was actually made in Belgium and his previous was made in the UK even though they were 'French' cars.

A professor in economics from the Grande Ecole in Paris that stayed with us some years back said it all when he said with regards to French unions that France needed a Margaret Thatcher to take them on and put them in their place and that until that is done France will not advance. Now I have been here a while I think he is right. I explained the incentives to small businesses that Thatcher bought in and how it enabled me and my friend to set up a successful business that ended up employing around 40 people. I said how it was expected that out of every 10 new businesses about half would fail after three years. He said in France that would not be acceptable, all would have to succeed which in my eyes is just not going to happen hence there are no incentives for new companies. Only Sarkozy came near to doing anything but it fell far short of what was required.

People say they like France because it is like living in the UK 30 or 40 years ago, well they are right in some ways especially when it comes to business and the economy.

[woolybanana]

What saddens me is that the French do not see their own problems and therefore cannot change them, and, even worse, that they believe that their model is the one for Europe. They tried over 40 odd years to get it adopted but now all the other states see the inadequacy of it and are pulling away.

Sarkozy has proposed a more united Germany and France to act as the motor for Europe; I suspect the Germans will run a mile, as they may have sussed out that he only wants them to bankroll the French debt, and wants to make them less competitive by imposing a social structure that has failed time and time again.

As to French cars, well, I asked my local garage some time ago, when I was car hunting, and he said quite simply that they spend more time in his able hands than eithe German or Far Eastern makes.

Yes, it is an easy place to live, unless you lift the carpet and see what lies beneath.

[NormanH]

Sortir en Renault rentrer en Taxi...

[Frederick]

 The EU will just have to wait a little while longer for all its problems to be solved ... The cosy chat between Angie and Tony recently about taking on the likes of the FN and UKIP and others to stop them getting stronger and unravelling the workings of Brussels . Will have to be mulled over by all those at the top to get their agreement that a chair is needed  for powerful President who is well known on the world stage.... Then step forward President Blair who will not be in it for the money as he has enough already and ....We will all be saved !

[NickP]

Now Now Frederick, don't lets get into la la land, because as we all know Mr Blair that great socialist and property developer is much too busy brokering the Middle East peace process, to lower himself and do anything for Europe. (Thank Goodness).

[PaulT]

Seems to me that if the other politicians ignore the rise of the NF and UKIP then NF and UKIP will rise even further.

Some of the electorate will always vote for a particular party 'always have and my parents voted that way too'. However, others change parties and in the recent elections the parties who do not love the EU have done well but not well enough to form a majority.

What will happen at the next election if the likes of UKIP and NF are not listened to?

The EU keen Lib Dems have seen their vote collapse - just one MEP.

We have seen the farce of terrorists being stopped by EU judges and in one case when vast amounts of time and expense have been expended and they have been extradited they have been found guilty.

France does seem stuck in British 70s - powerful unions - shops closing 12 - 2 and closed Sundays. The cry in the UK was 'people do not want to shop on Sundays' Yeh, right look at shop car parks on a Sunday.

The cry 'people should not work on a Sunday' - do those people not use gas, electricity etc, watch TV, use the phone, fill up their car with fuel, go for a meal, call ambulances, attend hospitals - the list goes on and on.

[idun]

This thread has made me think of how the charms of french traditions were so valued on here in the past.

I like shopping late afternoon, NO actually that is wrong, I don't like shopping, I really don't.  I  do the shopping I have to do late afternoon. But here in my bit of NE England, many shops shut at 5, some of the butchers and bakers are shut at 3 or 4.  Coffee shops are closing too just as I hit town. I never minded lunch time closing in France as I could happily leave home at around 4 and do what I had to do.

And M. Idun, always avoids going out for anything at lunchtime as he is programmed to go after two or three.

Somethings in France are antiquated, but not everything and I liked the lunch time close and then being open later. Sunday opening would not be a bad idea, but limited, and in a french way. After all, Sunday opening is limited in the UK, that would be fine with me.

I may be wrong but I was always led to believe that lots of the working regulations were started post war, about 1948. I know that anciennete was and that, well if you don't know about it, beggars belief. Probably a good way at the time to keep wages low knowing a little  more will come regularly over the next 20 odd years.

If I am right about these rules being post war, what now? two generations and how does one change the psyche of the population. It would be hard, but it needs doing, it really does and I don't know where one starts. Maybe a carrot is needed like improving the anciennte and reducing the number of years?  I don't think draconian sudden change would go down well at all.

[suein56]

[quote user="PaulT"]France does seem stuck in British 70s - powerful unions - shops closing 12 - 2 and closed Sundays. The cry in the UK was 'people do not want to shop on Sundays' Yeh, right look at shop car parks on a Sunday.[/quote]

Totally agree with you about the stranglehold the unions still have in France, it is not only outdated but poisonous and could do with a huge amount of modification.

About Sunday trading then I am not so sure. Perhaps I am fortunate in that I live in a coastal area so we have a Sunday market and some of the supermarkets are open untill lunchtime. Also some shops in the season are open on a Sunday afternoon ie beachware, trinkets, clothes, shoes, cafés and crêperies. As to the shopping malls opening on a Sunday I believe that would devalue the family Sunday which still seems to exist here. We see lots of families out walking together, cycling together, enjoying the beaches - even huddled up in their coats, just relaxing together, without the need to spend any money. I like that.

Sue

[idun]

How many of you actually really know how it works in France when you are on a company salary?

The anciennete system can take up to 30 years to get up to your maximum salary. I am not talking about getting more qualifications, just keep your head down and do the same job as the person next to you, who for exactly the same work will be getting about double  your earnings, because they have been with the company for 25 years. In fact they could be old and knackered and not working as well as you after a year or two, but still you get a pittance and they get a LOT more.

The whole system needs overhauling and I do not know where they would start. The unions, well, they are rubbish, but most of the whole system is.

[suein56]

[quote user="idun"]How many of you actually really know how it works in France when you are on a company salary?

The whole system needs overhauling and I do not know where they would start. The unions, well, they are rubbish, but most of the whole system is.

[/quote]

The lovely nurse who came to our house recently to give my OH anti-coagulant injections everyday used to work in the cardiology dept of our local hospital until a couple of months ago. She is gifted with a super friendly manner and a light touch with the needle - by contrast with the smiling dragon who punctured OH painfully during the following week. The reason the lovely Frédérique left the hospital was ancienneté; she had been there for 10 years and seen others promoted over her simply because they had been there longer, though, in her words, their work skills and attitude were appalling.

As she said : It mattered not a jot how good you were at your job, nor the amount of care or enthusiasm you put in, reward was calculated simply on how long you had been there.

So she left; their loss.

Sue

[NormanH]

I am never sure where the superior tone of these threads about France find their justification.

Here are the OECD figures for Labour productivity levels based on the USA being 100

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL

France comes out of that quite well...

[PaulT]

I wonder what the reaction would be if the companies said 'we are now going to pay everyone on the top rate'.

When I started work new entrants were on 2 weeks annual leave and after 5 years service it went to three weeks. About a year after I started it was decided that everyone would get three weeks. Oh, the fuss, moans etc of those there for 5 or more years 'it's not fair' etc.

It is not so bad now, but when I was working and only able to spend one week or two weeks at a time it was very handy that a 'local' DIY store did not close for lunch and was open on a Sunday. The owners sold out and the new owners now close for lunch and also Sunday. A perverse form of progress.

[suein56]

[quote user="NormanH"]Here are the OECD figures for Labour productivity levels based on the USA being 100

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL

France comes out of that quite well...

[/quote]

I get a notice saying those figures are out of date and gives this as the latest update :

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDB_LV

As I am not good at deciphering such detail is France still as good as it was; or perhaps better ?

Sue

[idun]

[quote user="suein56"][quote user="idun"]How many of you actually really know how it works in France when you are on a company salary?

The whole system needs overhauling and I do not know where they would start. The unions, well, they are rubbish, but most of the whole system is.

[/quote]

The lovely nurse who came to our house recently to give my OH anti-coagulant injections everyday used to work in the cardiology dept of our local hospital until a couple of months ago. She is gifted with a super friendly manner and a light touch with the needle - by contrast with the smiling dragon who punctured OH painfully during the following week. The reason the lovely Frédérique left the hospital was ancienneté; she had been there for 10 years and seen others promoted over her simply because they had been there longer, though, in her words, their work skills and attitude were appalling.

As she said : It mattered not a jot how good you were at your job, nor the amount of care or enthusiasm you put in, reward was calculated simply on how long you had been there.

So she left; their loss.

Sue

[/quote]

If this nurse is french then she knows how it works. It is the same in most french work places, simply comme ça.

 Promotion has nothing to do with it either. Because once you get promoted you are on the same road and the anciennete remains on the new grade.

Maybe it was policy where she worked to promote those that had been there longest? I don't know. Everywhere must be different, because I have seen relatively young people promoted. In fact with the ancienneté system, the people they are in charge of can be earning a lot more than them. It is a very odd system.

[Tom]

One of the reasons for the higher productivity in France might be that companies invest more in new equipment and automated processes. Whereas in UK companies find it easier to increase output by employing more people.

[Théière]

[quote user="Tom"]One of the reasons for the higher productivity in France might be that companies invest more in new equipment and automated processes. Whereas in UK companies find it easier to increase output by employing more people.[/quote]

Evidence please.

Most efficient car plant in the EU

There are plenty of others, your comments seem to be those of the older times, with France's problems of getting rid of staff and the costs of doing so, it's those that are over staffed that and the misguided idea that everything from France is the best even if it does hale from China with a made in France sticker on it.

[Tom]

It was a possible reason for the OECD productivity figures that Norman and Sue linked to.

France GDP/hours worked being $49.3 in 2013,the same as Germany. UK figure was 42.1

[Quillan]

I liked the report on car production, something Betty mentioned ages ago and still true. The only problem I might have is the figures are the quantities that come off the production line not how many leaving the factory that work. I only mention this because although I have never worked in the car industry one of my clients was (Ford) New Holland at Basildon and the number of tractors that rolled off the line that did not actually work was so high that not only did they cover the massive storage area but the staff carpark which meant the had to rent a field opposite for staff to park their cars. All well and good in the summer but in winter big problems. Lucky they had a tractor or two to pull the staff cars out.

[EuroTrash]

"It was a possible reason for the OECD productivity figures that Norman and Sue linked to.

France GDP/hours worked being $49.3 in 2013,the same as Germany. UK figure was 42.1 "

I would be surprised if it was a correct reason though. My impression is that French SMEs aren't able to invest nearly as much as their UK counterparts, nor do they regard it as as much of a priority. For instance a busy packaging company near me has virtually no CAD/CAM technology nor sophisticated machines, it still uses manufacturing systems that most UK packaging firms would consider antiquated with men doing the setting up manually rather than it being done automatically. And the company doesn't consider itself behind the times.

[woolybanana]

All these lovely figures fail to take into account the deadly weight of useless fonctionnaire drones that suck the life out of France and which Mr Hollande has increased substantially in one form or another.

Until France reduces the deadweight of the state it will never get out of its present rut.

[Quillan]

Just having my annual clear out of my 'In' tray which in reality is a one foot high pile of paid bills in the corner of the kitchen, credit card statements etc and came across a 'Devis' from our local double glazing company, the only one of three from whom I asked for a quote and sent me one. I wanted a new patio door, pretty standard size and thought I would offer the job to somebody locally. The price quoted was just under €2k plus fitting, went to Brico Depot and bought one for €300. I always knew it would be more locally and even if it were €500 I thought at least it helps the local economy. You can imagine the surprise when I got his quote. I see the guy who gave the quote sitting outside the bar smoking when I go through town in the afternoons, obviously a very rich man or no work, one of the two. I know there is no way he can compete with the likes of Brico Depot on price and might expect double price at worse but six times the price I think is somewhat taking P. It does make me wonder about the survival and competitiveness of small French businesses.