Trial emigration

[Quillan]

Lets just hope we don't see a post in six months about some bloke who was working on his roof, has fallen off and broken his back leaving mega health bills that can't be paid whilst his wife and children have nothing to live on and what should they do then asking us to help point them in the right direction to get help off the French state etc. If thats the risk some people are willing to take then good luck to them but please don't expect somebody like me to help them out. The old saying about beds and laying in them comes to mind.

[Chancer]

Oh what a jolly positive forum this has become, - not!

What is so wrong with a family facing this upheaval who already own a property in France from considering spending a year there while the children are Young? They are trying to make a positive from a bad situation, why so much negativity and hostility?

I noticed the birth of these sort of views in 2007 when access was blocked to the CMU for new immigrants, those that were comfortably ensconced in the system  started to say nah- nah- ni- nah-na (children in playground teasing sound) to those wanting to do what they had already done..

Maybe it began as well meaning warnings to those who perhaps may not have known especially while the situation was evolving but really it seems to have become a bloodsport now.

I really cant recall anything like the opposition and hostility before 2007 when an exclusive club was formed by a change in legislation, perhaps they were just more optimistic times.

There would be practically no construction industry in France or any building/renovation being done in Paris without hundreds of thousands of sans papiers who have made their bed and are lying in it, these are the people that are partially funding your health system whilst not being able to access it.

[idun]

My posts have never changed about some things.

We moved to France on a whim for an adventure when next to no one was moving, probably because it was expensive then, people forget. And we'd have easily moved on if it hadn't worked out.  I have nothing against adventures or whims, but at least some 'safety' measures should be taken into account before moving especially with young children.  And I would say that the most important is health care.

You wouldn't dive without checking that your bottles had enough 'air' in them, and the regulators were working etc etc, my husband used to dive, there is rather a long check list pre diving isn't there, well I suppose on my check list of moving to another country  at the top  would be  that  basic health care would be covered properly for my family and be sure that the cover would work and not just what I'd heard in the pub etc.

And let's face it, these people can find out everything these days at the tap of a keyboard. All the info is out there. If they want all the pink fluffiness that used to be on here, well, too late now and it was never true anyway. And I would have been the voice of dissent saying that they should have health care and get all their  affairs in order......... and told off for it. When kids are involved it is no longer a game and parents should act responsibly. It simply is not like moving from Berwick to Bristol. Heck, in the early 80's it was great fun driving in France, then I had a baby in the car and 'fun' is not a word I could use about driving.

I don't think that the tone of the replies has been wrong for this family. IF it was a single man or woman, even a couple chancing a move when reasonably young, then as adults the risks they take would only impact upon themselves.....

Personally even my whims always have a nuance of being sensible about things, but not everyone is like me!

[Quillan]

I know we are drifting away from the centre of the topic but if people came to work in France and worked years ago 'on the cards' paying their tax and contributions then why didn't they have access to the health system? I always thought it was if you paid in you could use it.

There is no infantile attitude amongst those of us that came 12 years or more ago towards those that are coming now who try to 'beat the system'. Like any system those that pay in not only support themselves but those in the community. I guess I feel the same about my adoptive country as I would if I lived in the UK about immigrants coming and not contributing. I don't have a problem with those that do work or are retired and have a pension etc but those that don't, well they made their bed, they can either go home or get a job.

The change in the rules are not just for France they are for the whole of the EU but France, quite rightly so in my opinion and a shame the UK does not follow suite, apply these regulations with vigour.

The other thing is that in the 12 years I have been here a lot of things have changed as I have discovered when contributing to this thread and I would suggest even more things have changed since people arrived before me.

I don't personally have any problems with people coming and chancing their luck but do it properly especially as I and others have said if you have a family and children are involve. They don't get a choice, they can't control their environment and they can't ensure they can get healthcare etc should they need it, that is the responsibility of the parents. For parents not to take this into account shows gross neglect on their part. I have always said over the years to do as I was told by many members of this forum before I moved here, research, research and then research some more. As Idun has pointed out there is no excuse because it is all there on the Internet and even if you don't have a computer in the UK you can always use the library computers.

What I also find strange is that this chap (I believe) works in the IT industry. He therefore must have a computer and access to the Internet so why is he getting somebody else to do his research for him?

[PaulT]

Well Chancer do not lump me in the 'comfortably ensconced in the system' brigade because I am one of those, who having purchased the house right at the beginning of 2007 so as to take early retirement in 2012 and retire to France can now only spend a few months in France and have also had to buy a UK property and make sure I retain UK residency.

Idun makes a very valid point about the children.

And what if something goes disastrously wrong. We know that certain things will never happen to us - but they sometimes do.

I presume Chancer you would have no border checks on the UK and allow as many illegal immigrants in as want to come. What is being advocated is essentially a family of illegal immigrants coming to France.

Chancer, your last comment, I presume no papers so no tax paying, so cash in hand, so how does that fund a health system.

As for negativity what a strange thing to say. Presumably, if a child was going to put their hand in to a scalding hot liquid and someone said 'do not do that as you will burn yourself' that is negativity so they should be positive 'go on, put your hand right in'.

[YCCMB]

Of course, if they are going to regard the whole experience as a long holiday rather than a "trial emigration" then there's always the option of taking out long-stay travel insurance.

[EuroTrash]

Good point YCCMB.

Though the problem with that, is if they rent out their house in the UK. In fact that's what's causing all the problems. If they keep their UK house and stay UK resident and pop back now and again, they can legitimately call their time in France a holiday.

To Chancer's post - it seems logical that when the rules change, the advice given on the forum will also change. It's no good pretending it's still as easy as it used to be, when it patently isn't. As for illegal immigrants keeping the French health service going and the French construction industry alive, just by being here, wherever did that come from?

I just don't get why people are so desperate to live in France that they'll duck and dive to achieve instant gratification, when it's not that hard to do it responsibly. Taking out private health insurance is expensive but if you want something enough, you can save up and invest in your new life. PaulT is patiently biding his time. Other people figure out ways to make a living and pay their way. And other people take the view that whatever they want, they should be able to get it (or if not the real thing, something that looks like it), just like that. Maybe it's a generation thing, kids these days don't seem to know the difference between 'need' and 'want', I thought it was confusion with vocabulary but maybe it's the concepts that have got confused as well. My generation was brought up to accept that sometimes you have to take 'no' for an answer.

[Chancer]

I'll respond to them all in one go.

Idun, I agree with you re the children and its interesting to find that at least one person other than myself came on a whim/coup de cœur determined to do whatever it took to get by, Young people with Young children also act impulsively and when these actions end in divorce then it is very sad but children are résiliant and I really cant see any of them suffering in this case, the parents perhaps and of course its Wise to advise them which is what they are asking for.

 

Quillan, this family might be coming and not contributing (apart from taxes fonc and d'hab) but then they are taking nothing from the country either so I really dont see the comparison with the headline grabbing alleged "immigrant benefit grabbing cheats".

[quote user="PaulT"] I presume Chancer you would have no border checks on the UK and allow as many illegal immigrants in as want to come. What is being advocated is essentially a family of illegal immigrants coming to France.

That is not worthy of a response, shame on you

Chancer, your last comment, I presume no papers so no tax paying, so cash in hand, so how does that fund a health system. [/quote]

Other than the odd closed and secured homeowners site where someone might be working on the black the Ursaaf can and regularly do inspect all sites displaying a permis de construire panneau, they just march in and someone not wearing an identity badge or overalls identifying the employer will be hauled away. The sans papiers that I am talking about, the illegal immigrants to use your terms are those that work on all the major construction sites in this country in their 1000's, they are mainly employed by interim agencies who deduct their cotisations but they and their children get no healthcare or retirement benefits, that is how they are funding the health system.

They even went on strike which paralysed the capital resulting in the compromise measure of L'aide médical de l'état, if you had ever spent any time at a pity prefecture  you could not help but be moved by their plight, their precarité and the abominable way they are treated as almost sub human yet the country and those to use my earlier words, safely ensconced in the system relys on them.

[EuroTrash]

Just to put the record straight - illegal non-EU immigrants in France have been getting free healthcare via AME (Aide Médicale de l'Etat) for many years, ever since EU law insisted on it, and it costs the French healthcare system an absolute fortune every year. They don't get pension rights in France but let's face it if illegals got exactly the same benefits as everyone else it would make a bit of a mockery of the immigration system wouldn't it. As I recall, which is not very well, the demonstrations were mainly over the government's refusal to give them papers after 5 years - not about healthcare, which they get.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Quillan, this family might be coming and not contributing (apart from taxes fonc and d'hab) but then they are taking nothing from the country either so I really dont see the comparison with the headline grabbing alleged "immigrant benefit grabbing cheats".

[/quote]

Perhaps I am not explaining it clear enough. They may come for a year, nothing happens and everything is OK. On the other hand (and bearing in mind it was said they will be living in a wreck of building) somebody, a child even, could have an accident, a serious accident.

The European Health card will of course cover them for this during the first three months after which they are on their own. If something happens after six months and they say "we only arrived yesterday" then they are cheating the system either in France or the UK (from whence the card was issued). The alternative as Betty has said is to get a years worth of travel insurance on the basis they are taking a years holiday in France. It may well cost more than normal holiday insurance but it would be belt and braces just in case.

Unfortunately sods law is if you do that nothing will happen but if you don't something will. The other point is that the driving force behind this appears from what has been posted to be the father and he really needs to ensure his family is properly protected.

 

[EuroTrash]

Just looked AME up on Wikipedia and apparently

En 2013, selon un rapport parlementaire, les dépenses continuent à fortement augmenter et doivent dépasser 800 millions d'euros, soit une hausse de 16,4 %. Le député UMP Claude Goasguen critique l'opacité du ministère de la Santé. Il analyse que plus de 250 000 clandestins, dont plus plus de 167 000 en Île-de-France, bénéficient de l'AME et dénonce un système où « les surcoûts sont toujours compensés » sans outil de suivi.

Good to know that all these illegals in Paris are keeping France's health system going then.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Good point YCCMB.

Though the problem with that, is if they rent out their house in the UK. In fact that's what's causing all the problems. If they keep their UK house and stay UK resident and pop back now and again, they can legitimately call their time in France a holiday. [/quote]

I don't entirely disagree, but I guess it's feasible to rent out your house and go travelling, assuming you're doing it for a finite period. I made the assumption that, if they're going to "try" this for a year, they will rent their house out on a contract which will permit them to either extend or rescind the tenant's contract after 12 months ( given that it's far easier to accomplish this in the UK than it would be in France). In fact, you could argue that it's not different than anyone going on holiday and renting out their flat/house on a site like Air B&B for others to use in their absence.

My understanding (which I admit up front is sketchy) is that your residency is ultimately tested by the Statutory Residence Test. One of the criteria is whether you have a home in the UK. I don't know (and this is the crunch question) what would happen if you rented out your home, because essentially it is still your "home", even if you're not living there. I assume (and we all know that assumption isn't a Good Thing) that if you are paying any tax liability arising from rental income to HMRC, then they would be happy.

I've known a number of situations where people have put their children into school (in the UK and elsewhere) for a finite period. It should not be overlooked that most civilised countries have a legal requirement that children attend school, and there are sanctions that can be imposed on both the parents and the local authority for non-compliance (unless there's proof of home education). So, I'd venture to suggest that it's not just unlikely but borderline illegal for a school in France OR the UK to refuse to accept a child or to offer an alternative.

[Sprogster]

The main comment I would make is not France specific but the danger of voluntarily taking yourself out of the job market for twelve months following redundancy.

Firstly, the reality is that the current French economic situation is dire and now worse than Spain, with a very recent IMF report warning that France is likely to go back into recession. Therefore, the probability of finding work in France as a foreigner is remote and meanwhile having left the UK one has dramatically reduced the likelihood of finding alternative employment there.

Also whilst spending Spring through Autumn in France is one thing, would they really want to spend a long cold dark winter in rural France, where everything tends to shut down. A lot of Brits have a totally misconceived idea as to the French climate and are shocked how cold and wet winters can be there.

As for health care, personally I think it is irresponsible moving to France without proper health care coverage especially where children are concerned, which will probably in this situation include some element of private health insurance. As what happens if you are involved in a road accident for example, as you could find yourself with six figure medical bills that the French authorities pursue you back to the UK for.

[Chancer]

I doubt that their residency will ever be put to the test but there are things they could do, in my first few years away from the UK when I travelled and later moved to France my house wasnt rented per se but I had a house-sitter who paid me a reduced rental, he had the full use of the house in my absence, paid the bills etc and I used the small spare room when  I returned.

I know a single airline pilot who rents his house out but has retained the spare bedroom for his exclusive use for stopovers, in fact he stays at his girlfriends but he didnt want to lose the connection with his home.

My residency being an unusual situation has been put to several tests, the UK one used the following jurisprudence:

It is analogous to that which would arise if an occupier regularly went away on long holidays or military duty for several months or even years at a time, but left most of their belongings at home while doing so. Although that person would not always be physically present in the accomodation they would return on a regular basis for conventional domestic habitation and it would remain their home.

There is also the family unit to consider, les impôts after asking a few key questions told me that I remained UK tax resident, the same guy now says that had he knwon what he knows now (that I am single) he would not have done so, he understood that my family remained in the UK (my sisters, nièces and nephew) but being single in fact "my family" travels with me wherever I go.

I dont think that for an initial foreseen stay of 12 months residency is an issue or will be put to the test, the guy may be offered a job after a month and the whole family return, at the 12 month time when rental contracts etc come up for renewal a more definitive decision could be made.

I still cannot see other than by wishfull thinking and extrapolation of other "rules" that an EHIC with a validity of 5 years becomes invalid when someone has been out of the UK for more than 3 months or that using it after that time is illegal or fraudulent.

[Quillan]

It's not the UK side it is the French side. You can only use it in France under EU law for three consecutive months maximum. It doesn't matter for how long it is 'valid' for with regards to the issuing country it is the rules of the country in which it is being used that counts. I think you might find that technically a French issued one used in the UK can only be 'used' for three months. Just because the card is valid of 5 years it does not mean you can live in France for 5 years using said card.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="Quillan"]It's not the UK side it is the French side. You can only use it in France under EU law for three consecutive months maximum. It doesn't matter for how long it is 'valid' for with regards to the issuing country it is the rules of the country in which it is being used that counts. I think you might find that technically a French issued one used in the UK can only be 'used' for three months. Just because the card is valid of 5 years it does not mean you can live in France for 5 years using said card.[/quote]

Quillan - I must have missed it, but is there a link to an official website that says an EHIC is valid only for a three month visit? You asked the same question yourself in an early post on this thread, and idun replied with some information from a UK government website that made no mention of three months. What idun said was his own interpretation:

[quote user="idun"] I would only say that a EHIC should be used for a maximum of 3 months and then as one is properly a french resident, then french rules should come into force[/quote]

I'm interested in this - and it is something quite separate from the "Trial Emigration" issue - as I know at least one retired UK-resident couple who visit their house near me in France for a good four or five month stay each year. They like the summer weather. They don't take out medical insurance each year, as far as I know (and I think I would know if they did).

[PaulT]

Travel insurance normally has a clause about having UK residency. If the house is rented out then they do not have accommodation in the UK.

Renting out the house. Do it on an informal basis, i.e. no legal documentation and a big fight to get the tenants out. Shorthold tenancy far safer but problems getting the tenants out before the end of the agreement.

Big insurance claim and companies normally try to find ways of getting out of paying. If they do pay they will be looking to get the patient back to the UK and in to an NHS hospital asap - big problem if the family do not have accommodation.

[YCCMB]

So, just for the sake of (further) argument, let's imagine the case of someone who genuinely does go off travelling for a year, with every intention of returning to the UK thereafter, BUT who doesn't actually own a UK home but rents. (I know, hard to believe, but getting easier by the day...) would they have to carry on paying rent on a property in order to fulfil the criteria for being considered a UK resident? Because if so, that's just plain daft.

I am as yet unconvinced (but happy to be so) that actually owning a vacant property in the UK (with the emphasis on "owning" and "vacant") is the key criterion for establishing residency and/or getting your insurers to cough up. I could be completely wrong, but I think that on its own it's not enough, and neither could it be the deal-breaker in establishing residency.

[Chancer]

Quillan, I understand where you are coming from now, and probably also Idun re the 3 months Is it a law or "rules"?

It was asked has anyone ever been forced to leave after 3 months, Roms probably, other working immigrants (the sans papiers) not while they are contributing, EU inactifs, not to my knowledge and you can be sure were it to happen the foruls would be full of gleefull comments reprting on it.

Still leave the question of whether the EHIC will continue to cover someone after  3 months, the things about private insurers arent really relevant here except for perhaps one of those EHIC top up policies.

Re the travelling Betty, I can tell you what happened to me in 2004, it all comes down to if you try to claim benefits, I had to return to recover from Falciparum malaria, my doctor signed me off work and whilst I didnt want any unemployment benefits, I had after all been living on my savings for a year and would continue to do so right up to recently, he advised me to do so to get NIC contributions so I claimed incapacity benefit for around 6 weeks before finally moving to France.

One of the questions was have you been out of the UK for more than 12 weeks in the last X amount of time, when I answered truthfully the woman groaned and said "Oh dear, we have to go through all this dreadfull stuff" I had to do a habitual residency test and a right to reside test which from the questions contained within was clearly aimed at asylum seekers or other immigrants with no connection whatever with the country.

However just because some things have a 3 month "rule" which could probably in any case be legally challenged it doesnt follow that it crosses over to other things like the EHIC validity, I could equally have been struck with the illness in France after the incubation period and whilst we will never know I am certain that the hospitalisation and treatment would have been covered by my EHIC except I didnt have one then!

As it was I was hospitalised in Australia, I had travel insurance and expected to have to pay the bill at the end or give them my insurance détails but they just said "you are English, nothing to pay" they hadnt even seen my passport.

[Quillan]

Well Betty thats why down here at least the criteria is simple "Do you complete a French tax return every year?". If the answer is "Yes" then you are classed as resident. If the answer is "No" then you are not resident.

With regards to the EHIC card the question is quite simple "Have you been here less that three months?". If the answer is yes they say "Prove it" like with flight or fery ticket. If the person says they can't then they say "well pay now and claim it back when you get home".

Perhaps it is easier to see why now in Spain thats exactly what you do, pay when treated and claim it back when you return to the UK.

[Benjamin]

If this three month rule or law does have any basis in fact then there will be many thousands of Northern Europeans over-Winering in Southern Europe who wont be covered using the EHIC.

[Quillan]

Quillan - I must have missed it, but is there a link to an official website that says an EHIC is valid only for a three month visit? You asked the same question yourself in an early post on this thread, and idun replied with some information from a UK government website that made no mention of three months. What idun said was his own interpretation:

Yes there is and I gave a link but here is is again in plainer form....

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf

You need to read the bit about what happens after three months. All this was passed into French law in 2007 so the French system is exactly as it reads here. I like to be able to quote the exact law (even if it is in French) so people can read it themselves.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/EEAcountries.aspx is another place to look then further down that page click on France.

Interesting that since the law changed in the UK on the 1st July (as pointed ut to be previously and now I found it on the web) you can't claim for "co-payment" which would be for instance seeing a doctor will cost you 23 Euros which you cannot now claim back. It would be the same for consultants which cost just over 40 Euros and some other treatment. It will however pay up to 80% of your hospital bill so for every 100 Euros cost you will have to pay 20 Euros out of your own pocket which you cannot claim back. It is all in the links above.

By the way his wife needs to keep her legs crossed. Pregnancy/child birth is absolutly NOT covered by the EHIC card.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Benjamin"]If this three month rule or law does have any basis in fact then there will be many thousands of Northern Europeans over-Winering in Southern Europe who wont be covered using the EHIC.

[/quote]

Thats why now in Spain you have to pay upfront and claim it back in your home country. There was a big thing in the newpapers last year about this and the EU told Spain they couldn't do this but Spain didn't take any notice and carried on.

[idun]

Idun is a she not a he!

The number to call about this is 00 44 191 218 1999

But why would anyone want to ignore french considerations in this, when chosing  to move to  France?

And who  would  take the risk of not having proper health care in place for their children? 

Nothing'll happen............. would that it were so, anything can happen to anyone and french health care can be very costly even with an iffy EHIC!

[NickP]

[quote user="Quillan"]

By the way his wife needs to keep her legs crossed. Pregnancy/child birth is absolutly NOT covered by the EHIC card.

[/quote]

 So you are categorically stating that a British woman on holiday in France; and goes into premature labour, would not get emergency treatment free on the  EHIC? Are you sure?