BBC article "trouble on the streets"?

[Pickles]

Although I think that there are a lot of good points made in the article (though I would reckon that "immobilism" predates Mitterand and would argue about some of the others), I really don't agree with the conclusion: I think they're just going to carry on muddling through, with Left and Centre-right of equal incompetence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29686257

[NormanH]

The article leaves out another serious issue which has been grumbling on with just glimpses at times of the depth of feeling.

I am talking about the way that immigrants and more seriously there children who were born in France are treated.

Most British people just assume that the multi-cultural model that is promoted in the UK is the norm every where, even if they dislike it.

This is not at all the case in France, to the extent that what would be seen as politically incorrect cultural elitism in Britain is routine.

https://www.compas.ox.ac.uk/fileadmin/files/Publications/working_papers/WP_2007/WP0746-Bertossi.pdf

There are obvious negative consequences which are particularly worrying in the context of the situation in Iras and Syria and I have seen dubious people recruiting for a fundamentalist form of religion in my quarter and who knows perhaps for more.

If this is added  to the rest of the problems it explains why there is the feeling that we are living in a tinder box.

[idun]

I am really trying to think of a time when there has not been some civil unrest in France for one thing or another....... and I cannot. From 'sheep' being killed, to a Prefecture being attacked/burned, lorry drivers strikes, student unrest and the list goes on.

Sometimes the 'people' win, and on other occasions they don't, but it is the french way. Look at teachers, how often they are at school especially the profs.

Is it any worse now than it was, well I watch french news just about every day and frankly I don't think it is worse.

NH you are right, it is a problem for kids who were born in France. Remember that IF their parents were not french, they are not automatically french, rules do apply... been there, done that. So there is still that part of their not being french involved too. Not helped by lots of the people from the maghreb living in cités/ZUP's, which for employers, puts a red flag up too.

[Pickles]

[quote user="NormanH"]The article leaves out another serious issue which has been grumbling on with just glimpses at times of the depth of feeling.

I am talking about the way that immigrants and more seriously their children who were born in France are treated.

[/quote]

Yes: there is a tendency to refer to the problems of the "sensitive suburbs" rather than give the origins of the people involved, thus avoiding any real need to address WHY there is a problem. And it's almost as if the French state is saying "we don't have racial discrimination here because we are all French" whilst behaving in a way that is in complete opposition to that!

[DraytonBoy]

The French don't like what's happening now but won't accept the tough economic policies that are needed to drag France into the 21st century.

[idun]

DB, when you say the french, is that the people you know?

I only ask, as from my early days in France, once we got to know people properly they would 'rale' against the government and everything...........

Like most people on the planet, people tend to like the idea of change, as long as it doesn't affect them. Are the french any different.

edited

[NormanH]

[quote user="DraytonBoy"]The French don't like what's happening now but won't accept the tough economic policies that are needed to drag France into the 21st century.[/quote]

Do you mean the sort of policies which are dragging  many of the worst-off in Britain back to the 19th century?

[NormanH]

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="NormanH"]The article leaves out another serious issue which has been grumbling on with just glimpses at times of the depth of feeling.

I am talking about the way that immigrants and more seriously their children who were born in France are treated.

[/quote]

Yes: there is a tendency to refer to the problems of the "sensitive suburbs" rather than give the origins of the people involved, thus avoiding any real need to address WHY there is a problem. And it's almost as if the French state is saying "we don't have racial discrimination here because we are all French" whilst behaving in a way that is in complete opposition to that!

[/quote]

You have hit the nail on the head. The theory (what is often referred to as les valeurs Républicaines) is that every body is equal so it is forbidden to  look at such things as racial origin in compiling statistics; it even goes as far as preventing special help for children in difficulty in schools because the programme should be the same for all

In fact it is pure cant which masks a virulent racism which is quite openly expressed in a way that would make Alf Garnett shudder.

[Martin963]

What would you do Norman if you were in charge of France (and not subject to co-habitation)?

[Frederick]

It appears to me as a country far to many French people are not keen enough to put in the hours and work hard They are however keen to take all the benefits that they are offered paid for by those few who do and then call it "the French way."... . Its socialism failing the French way IMO

[idun]

Where do you get these figures/ideas from?

I am not saying either, that it is incorrect, or that french news is correct when they usually say that individual productivity in France outstrips that of the UK. I'm just wondering where it comes from F.

[Pickles]

[quote user="idun"]Where do you get these figures/ideas from?

I am not saying either, that it is incorrect, or that french news is correct when they usually say that individual productivity in France outstrips that of the UK. I'm just wondering where it comes from F.[/quote]

On the productivity issue, when I last looked it was due almost exclusively to higher levels of automation, resulting from higher levels of investment. If staff cost you a lot and getting rid of them is difficult, it is an incentive to employ as few as possible at the outset and therefore automate as much as possible.

[Tom]

And in the UK it is easier for firms to increase output by employing more people, The argument is that this has the effect of lowering the stats for national productivity per person employed.

On the other hand the number of unemployed in the UK is reduced and the amount paid on benefits also.

[Tom]

And in the UK it is easier for firms to increase output by employing more people. The argument is that this has the effect of lowering the stats for national productivity per person employed.

On the other hand the number of unemployed in the UK is reduced and the amount paid on benefits also.

[CSV]

[quote user="idun"]Where do you get these figures/ideas from?

I am not saying either, that it is incorrect, or that french news is correct when they usually say that individual productivity in France outstrips that of the UK. I'm just wondering where it comes from F.

[/quote]

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDB_LV

2013     GDP in US$ per hour worked

France 49.3

Germany 49.3

UK  42.1

EU average 38.5

[idun]

Thanks, interesting site.

[WJT]

Yes thank you that is a very interesting site. To be honest find it hard to believe that France is more productive than the UK though. :/

,

So it appears Luxembourg, Norway and the US are the top producers.

[DraytonBoy]

Those figures will be of no comfort to the 12% of working age French that are unemployed.

[lindal1000]

[quote user="Tom"]And in the UK it is easier for firms to increase output by employing more people. The argument is that this has the effect of lowering the stats for national productivity per person employed.

On the other hand the number of unemployed in the UK is reduced and the amount paid on benefits also.[/quote]

The irony here is that because many of the jobs are paid below the living wage in the UK, the fact that are working actually throws more people onto benefits as they become entitled to family credit and other top ups.

[idun]

And that lindal1000 was one of the good things I found about France when I first arrived, that people on low wages were getting decent benefits to make up their lousy wages. Surely better to be working than not.

Ofcourse that was the 'trick' in the olde days in France, because if someone was not working, then not only did these allowances stop, but so did unemployment benefit and health care....... things are much improved. There used to be a lot of 'normal' people begging back then too and a very good reason why dearly departed Coluche, started the Restos du Coeur.

Also since I remember in France it has been hard for young people to find employment, and also hard for anyone over 40 too. There always seemed to be a 'window' where one got a job......... eventually........... and stuck to it for life.......... what with ancienneté one would only be getting decent pay at the end of a career anyway.

edit, nice to see you post WJT

[Frederick]

Lindal1000 wrote :The irony here is that because many of the jobs are paid below the living wage in the UK, the fact that are working actually throws more people onto benefits as they become entitled to family credit and other top ups.

I listened to a radio item on low wages in the UK and what I thought was bad was the way carers who go into homes are only paid for the hours they do in the home . An example mentioned was a carer who put in five hours a day . Two of which were spent driving herself to and from homes so her "wages " were 3 hours at basic rate . Which I believe is £6.50 ... That is all wrong IMO

[WJT]

[quote user="idun"]And that lindal1000 was one of the good things I found about France when I first arrived, that people on low wages were getting decent benefits to make up their lousy wages. Surely better to be working than not.

Ofcourse that was the 'trick' in the olde days in France, because if someone was not working, then not only did these allowances stop, but so did unemployment benefit and health care....... things are much improved. There used to be a lot of 'normal' people begging back then too and a very good reason why dearly departed Coluche, started the Restos du Coeur.

Also since I remember in France it has been hard for young people to find employment, and also hard for anyone over 40 too. There always seemed to be a 'window' where one got a job......... eventually........... and stuck to it for life.......... what with ancienneté one would only be getting decent pay at the end of a career anyway.

edit, nice to see you post WJT

[/quote]

Thank you Idun. :)