Smacking children

[idun]

When I lived in France, and my children were young, I saw quite a lot of 'gifle', rather than smacking bottoms or the back of legs. I don't like the idea of slapping anyone in the face to be honest and with children would worry about affecting their ears.

I was thinking about this yesterday, when there was a child who was screaming the place down, the parent rightly ignoring said child, however, I know full well that I would have given either of mine a quick slap on the back of the legs and they would have calmed down a bit. I was with a friend and she said that she would have done the same..... but as we both agreed, not possible anymore.

When I think about it, it isn't just about that 'play' between parent and child wanting something or not being suited, there is a whole world of other people who are being assaulted by this child's screams and that is not right.

So how do we discipline children these days. They have to understand that will not always get what they want....... who of us can? And that is a great lesson for life, and they have to understand that they have no right to upset everyone else by their outbursts.

Was there anything wrong with a quick slap on the back of legs. I cannot remember mine ever requiring more than one, although the original outburst would sometimes change to a little cry or sob which soon stopped, as I would try and change the atmosphere and cheer them up, which was not possible when they were in the full throes of a tantrum.

[DraytonBoy]

Our four are very close in age so if one of them was playing up we would threaten them with either being sent to their room or an early bed. This worked as the offending child wouldn't want to miss out on anything. As someone who was frequently hit by their father there's no way I would have done the same to my own children.

[idun]

DB, I didn't say frequent 'hitting' that sounds bad. I said a smack, a quick one on the back of the legs or bottom. Not beating one's kid up and if anyone does that, or feels like doing that, then they should get help!

It is not as if children do not 'hit' or do vile things to one another in spite of the new pc way of the parents not daring to 'smack'. Children do, in France, in the UK. Even tiny kids seem hard wired to understand 'hitting'.

I have no idea how the menace of early bed or being sent to their room has any impact whatsoever when a child is having a full tantrum in a crowded restaurant at lunch time. Neither option can be acted upon, and I daresay the parent usually forgets by the time they get home anyway. If a child is handicapped, that is another matter, but this little brat wasn't. I was with a friend and the parents were her daughter's friends.

The parents tried a little talking to and then ignoring, neither worked............. maybe they said early bed or left in their room, whatever they said had no effect, but really why should I have that noise when I am out? I should not and neither should the other diners.

[nectarine]

I've not had children so am not qualified to answer but I can say that badly-behaved little darlings can ruin a good meal or a day out,... so many times I hear the parents say "stop that or I'll smack you", kid continues and then parent bursts into laughter so the threat is useless.

I used to get a smack on the back of my legs as a kid - not a beating, just a smack - and it was an instant and painful lesson. I'm afraid some of the problem is that parents today want to be friends with their children, rather than parents and the two conflict with each other with 'friend' winning over.

I can't offer a solution except for earplugs !

[nomoss]

6 inches or so of Duck tape applied to offending mouth is quite effective.

[DraytonBoy]

idun, if your're part of a large family especially one where your siblings are very close in age to you then being sent to your room or to bed early is a big deal. If they mis-behaved in a restaurant then we would take the child aside and warn them what would happen if they didn't stop and any punishment was always acted upon when we got home. Our kids were not angels but would rarely play up if we were out so maybe we were lucky.

[idun]

Yes,  maybe you were lucky, or you had sufficient discipline at home to make sure that they behaved when out. Unless you had multiple births, then we all start out, with one at a time though. This particular child was the elder,  about 5 or 6, younger sibling made not a sound and looked very 'sage'.

[DraytonBoy]

idun, less than five years separates the eldest from the youngest and when they were young going out - school, visiting relatives or even shopping required discipline and almost military organisation. Without either chaos would have ensued and we wouldn't have gone anywhere.

[Gluestick]

Hitting children of whatever age, when the parent/adult is angry, is IMHO, purely a physical symptom of the parent/adult's inability to control a confrontational situation.

That said, carefully applied physical chastisement (as you said, Idun) a sharp stinging slap on the back of the leg, acts as a wake up call to the child, that a boundary has been crossed and behavioural mores, exceeded.

The old adage "Spare the rod: spoil the child!" is, today, I fear, very worthwhile recalling.....

Electing to create children and bringing them up, should be, for myself, a process which entails considerable thought and consideration: as I have always stated, kids are not like moving toys: one cannot remove the batteries and bung them in a cupboard since the process has become boring!

My wife and I, early on, agreed a strict joint "deal": if we were out and our son played up (And boy, at times could he!), then one of us immediately returned home so we didn't disturb other's tranquillity, and off he went to bed. This lesson he learned hardly, when we were at my mother's for tea. I took him home and he was distraught: "But Daddy I love Granny and having tea at Granny's!" Never happened again......

I see parents now in supermarkets where their brats are running wild: the preferred solution seems to be to nick a choccy bar or similar (which of course is not paid for at the check out!) to keep the kid quiet. Then of course, kids very quickly learn, if they kick up a storm in the supermarket, they are rewarded with a sweet! Basic behavioural conditioning a la Pavlov.

If have experienced first hand how the politically correct left liberal mindset has impacted education: the kids run riot and the teaching staff lack any cogent sanctions: result the educational system has failed, since learning is mainly applied discipline. We would all much rather be doing something else and being somewhere else. HFE is mainly, of course, self-discpline to achieve objective results, over corporal and temporal inclinations.

Interestingly, in the early 1930s, certain of the Fabians and some of the Bloomsbury Group set up a free school, where children could really please themselves what they did with their time; the idealogical concept being to remove the pressure of discipline and thus free and release the mind.

Worked very well: produced a nice crop of numbskulls!

[:D]

[minnie]

I have to agree that a smack across the back of the legs worked well to stop tantrums when my young daughter was little. Children have to learn boundaries. When they are young you can't really rationalise with them and explain why they can't do what they want. No should mean no! They soon learn that misbehaving after being told no means a slap across the legs and then the misbehaving doesn't happen again. What is irritating is seeing parents saying no and then trying to cajole children into good behaviour. Certainly when I was in school as a child and misbehaving the cane across my open hand had the desired effect. I'm not even suggesting that.....but a slap across the legs has a similar effect. My daughter is now a model citizen, thoughtful and caring, in her thirties and totally independent.

[Patf]

I agree with what others have written, for young children.

But for older children and teens it can be counterproductive. Undermines any relationship previously built up.

Also they might hit you back. Or report you to the Social Services - I came across a few examples of this when the law first came in (can't remember date.) When working as an EP.

[minnie]

Yes, I was thinking of young children who should learn to obey no without question. With older children there are any number of sanctions which can be used. The main thing is to follow through with sanctions.

[idun]

Sanctioning older children is fairly easy, and frankly IF they are having tantrums at that age, then everything must have gone wrong when they were small. I know, teenagers do go all huffy, but they don't scream places down and throw themselves around either..... at least, I 've never seen that.

[Gardengirl]

Our two occasionally had quick slaps on the backs of their legs - when small but old enough to touch a fire, be so het up that they attack their 16 month younger brother, it's a quick method of stopping them in their tracks. Of course, as they become old enough to reason with, it becomes unnecessary.

Both of ours have grown up to be loving, helpful sons and partners, both have been working for charities, both shared the cooking for our family Christmas lunch today, as I injured my shoulder last weekend - whoever knew that pulling Christmas crackers could lead to such injuries?!

I hate violence, worked for many years with children who lived in abusive families, and know the damage that can be done to little ones, but occasional slaps for good reason have their place, in my opinion.

[Tancrède]

[quote user="idun"]IF they are having tantrums at that age, then everything must have gone wrong when they were small. I know, teenagers do go all huffy, but they don't scream places down and throw themselves around either..... at least, I 've never seen that.[/quote]

You never saw John Patrick McEnroe ?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="gardengirl "]

I hate violence, worked for many years with children who lived in abusive families, and know the damage that can be done to little ones, but occasional slaps for good reason have their place, in my opinion.[/quote]

Agree muchly GG: however what the anti-corporal punishment lobby miss, is mental abuse of little ones is equally as bad in causing mental trauma; as does deprivation of food, clothes and warmth; sadly these invariably go together with physical abuse.

Whilst I am personally structurally opposed to the death penalty, I make an exception for child abusers, paedophiles, men who beat up elderly ladies, serial rapists, men who inflict repeated physical hurt to women: and a few others!

Hanging would be far too kind for them!

[Gluestick]

[quote user="minnie"]I have to agree that a smack across the back of the legs worked well to stop tantrums when my young daughter was little. Children have to learn boundaries. When they are young you can't really rationalise with them and explain why they can't do what they want. No should mean no! They soon learn that misbehaving after being told no means a slap across the legs and then the misbehaving doesn't happen again. What is irritating is seeing parents saying no and then trying to cajole children into good behaviour. Certainly when I was in school as a child and misbehaving the cane across my open hand had the desired effect. I'm not even suggesting that.....but a slap across the legs has a similar effect. My daughter is now a model citizen, thoughtful and caring, in her thirties and totally independent.[/quote]

A few years back Minnie, I was attending the annual dinner of my old school association.

On the table were a very varied bunch! From a 70 year old (who was half-French a dedicated yachtsman who had just completed a Trans-Atlantic crossing on a square rigged ship and passed around pictures of him 250 feet up a mast!) to thirty ish old boys.........

I posed a question: "How many of us had been caned by the Head?" The ultimate sanction: six of the best on the derriere!

Most hands were raised.

"How many of us were slippered by Black Harry?" All hands went up!

Now Black Harry was the head of chemistry and a noted disciplinarian and he possessed an extraordinary size 15 gym shoe to administer punishment and it was feared more than the Head's cane!

 Finally, I asked: "OK, how many of your beat up old ladies, your wives, children: vandalise telephone boxes: fight with policemen etc?"

Not one hand was raised!

(I accept few would admit to malfeasances of this sort; however, they were a professional bunch of good citizens including JPs etc).

Quad erat demonstrandum.

[idun]

[quote user="Tancrède"][quote user="idun"]IF they are having tantrums at that age, then everything must have gone wrong when they were small. I know, teenagers do go all huffy, but they don't scream places down and throw themselves around either..... at least, I 've never seen that.[/quote]

You never saw John Patrick McEnroe ?

[/quote]

Wasn't that all an 'act'? I always thought it was.[Www]

[YCCMB]

I don't have a problem with smacking.

What I do have a problem with is people sitting in judgement on the parenting skills of people they may pass in the street or the supermarket, and describing children they know nothing about as "brats".

There are probably as many different approaches to parenting as there are parents. We all learn as we go along, and mostly from our mistakes, and it takes a big person to admit that they aren't perfect.

It's the simplest thing in the world to criticise someone on the back of a ten second encounter, but just because someone may approach a problem differently from the way you would doesn't make them wrong and you right. Nor does the evidence of such a brief encounter provide evidence of a lifetime's approach to parenting.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I don't have a

problem with smacking. What I do have a problem with is people sitting in

judgement on the parenting skills of people they may pass in the street or the

supermarket, and describing children they know nothing about as

"brats". There are probably as many different approaches to parenting

as there are parents. We all learn as we go along, and mostly from our

mistakes, and it takes a big person to admit that they aren't perfect. It's the

simplest thing in the world to criticise someone on the back of a ten second

encounter, but just because someone may approach a problem differently from the

way you would doesn't make them wrong and you right. Nor does the evidence of

such a brief encounter provide evidence of a lifetime's approach to

parenting.[/quote]

Brat: Def. "

(brăt)n.

"A child, especially a spoiled

or ill-mannered one.".

Betty: I fear you do me a disservice. I am fundamentally an amiable old cove and

have always adopted the philosophy that women, men and children are

respectively, ladies, gentlemen and children are nice to be with: until people,

themselves, prove otherwise!

Sadly, today, in Britain (I do find French children much better behaved, in

supermarché and from experience at family parties, BBQs etc) an increasing

majority totally lack manners, etiquette and general behavioural skills in

public places.

The cowman next door to us in France has more manners and courtesy in his

little finger than a vast and increasing number of Brits.

Fine, no doubt if one is fortunate enough to reside in a gated community in

somewhere like St. George's Hill, Weybridge when a member of house staff is

detailed to fight around supermarkets and carry out the grocery shopping etc.

Otherwise, the Brits have become increasingly uncouth load of oiks: since we

now suffer three generations, where the parents didn't know how to behave, then

clearly they lack the skill and knowledge to train their children.

In any case, oik is the new cool, thanks to endless media tripe.

Thus, if a child is running amok in any public place and thus behaves like a

brat; then, ergo, they are a brat, whether you are exercised by the reality or

not.

So sorry if such offends your, clearly, Left Liberal idyll, of a utopia in

clearly what has degenerated into a dystopian society.

[idun]

I don't have a problem with how other people decide to parent, at home, what they are prepared to put up with is down to them. But once that front door is crossed, then children should have to behave in a social and reasonable manner. So that is down to the parent, their choice to allow anti social behaviour and I don't want it when I am out socially, or should have to put up with it.

My youngest was a bloody handful, quite a little merdeur really and later a casse-cou. And yet, he did not act up when out, certainly not screaming tantrums, even when a toddler. He wasn't allowed to kick the chair in front either, or make repetitive noises, banging on things or clicking things etc etc ...... which these days all too often seem to go without reprimand or an apology to those that are being annoyed. I'm not a perfect parent, never was, still am not, but I know what behaviour I expect from other humans whilst I am out and about, no matter the age, a handicap is something quite different.

And french kids. Well, my kids went to french schools, I have taken french kids away on trips, are they really so well behaved? They seemed like 'kids' to me and would need keeping in order. Incidentally, someone I know on the south coast of England, said that they won't have french school trips in their shop, well, just two kids at a time. When I asked why, I just heard a big huff and saw a shaking head, but would say no more. As I said, just kids, there are good and bad every where.

[NickP]

To follow up on Idun's post, my dear old Mum who lived on the south coast used to have French children stay with her as part of a French English cultural exchange association

for school children. Most of the children were great, but, and it was a big but, they had terrible problems with the amount of shop lifting practiced by the French children. So much so; that as reported most shops would only allow them in the shop in small numbers. Impeccable mannered tea leaves.

[Cendrillon]

Oh dear, you really can't tar all children within one country with the same brush, whichever side of the channel you're on!

In Lidl today, (in Surrey and not anywhere near St George's Hill) a nice young girl was looking for a certain product. I directed her to the frozen food section and she thanked me. Then I found the product before she did , I showed her again and she thanked me very politely. Yes all of this in Lidl.[:)]

Re. the French children shop lifting on visits to U.K., I heard of a school trip to Yorkshire where the French school children were mostly children of prison staff. They apparently were the worst of the lot for being light fingered in the local shops.[;-)]

[Gluestick]

I was only recording my own experiences with French kids within the purview of their parents.

Most young people are little horrors when parents aren't around!

As one finds on the ferries and worst of all, the Eurotunnel terminals when school trips are in progress.

My excoriating comments regarding most children in local (to me) supermarkets in Britain, applies to the total lack of parental supervision: indeed, most times the parents are just as bad!

[idun]

Where teenagers are concerned, I always think of Kevin and Perry. IF mine were horrible at home, when they had been to their friends, their parents would lament how horrible their teens were and that ours so well behaved, which is exactly what would happen when these other teens were chez nous, the other parents quite relieved. This all in France ofcourse.