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Pickles
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[quote user="Chancer"]

A newspaper billboard in town says that the évadées are being tracked in Picardie.

There is probably a better translation of traquer than tracked, - chased or sought, perhaps.

[/quote]

For traquer my Larousse gives :

poursuivre qqun, le serrer de près, le harceler : traquer les voleurs, une vedette.
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[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="lindal1000"]Whilst you and your OH might be happy to shoot innocent women and children being used as human shields (could you really look them in the eye and pull the trigger, because if not then they are of no use), I doubt the average or even the elite French soldiers would have the stomach for it. They are professional soldiers and not trained as terrorists, able to put their emotions to one side and shoot bystanders. There is no doubt in my mind that these men know they will be caught and will not be taken alive if they can help it. They will instigate a shoot out, trying to take out as many other people as they can in the process. The role of the army will be to put them out of action and limit the damage they do.[/quote]

In pedant mode, I think that what was proposed was not to threaten to shoot the relative, but to use them as a human shield whilst the forces entered. If the relatives were shot, it would be by the murdering thugs, not by the gendarmes.

[/quote]

Merci, Pickle, for explaining it as I meant it.  TBH, this morning, the thinking was that there could have been a number of hostages involved in the Dammartin site, and the eventual storming (these guys are not going to surrender and quietly walk out) would have resulted in deaths in any case.

If they do kill their own families, then even people on their side would see them for the heartless brutes that they are.  And, if they don't kill their own families, then the seige would be over.

And anyway, what the hell do you think the others are doing at the grocery store? Are they not holding those hostages as human shields?

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Mint I understood what you were getting at, but whether you put wives and families in as human shields with the idea that the other side will fire on them, to me, that's the same as killing them yourself and not the job of a military that is supposed to represent a civilized country. Do you honestly think the scenes of women, children, old people crying for their lives, placed in that position by regular soldiers would be acceptable? And if they ran for it..are the professional soldiers supposed to shoot them? Yes I know that is what the terrorists would do, but that's the whole point..we don't live in a country run by terrorists.
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Lindal, I HAD to lob that one in because I am frightened and horrified at what is happening.

No, I don't think I'd be killing the relatives myself.  The terrorists have the option to kill their own families or not.  OF COURSE, I would hope that they couldn't open fire on their own grannies!!!

Desperate times, as I have said, call for desperate measures.  You have to adopt their tactics in exceptional circumstances (and I don't know how much more exceptional the present circumstances can get) because the alternative is unbearable to contemplate.

Moral high grounds are all very well.  The reality sometimes call for "whatever it takes".  Torture, beheadings, pushing a button to set off a nuclear warhead.................it's all killing or be killed and the survival instinct is what keeps us alive.

PS  I did begin by saying that it was completely unethical and that the State would NEVER do it, so it was just an imaginary situation.  Other thing is, don't you think those poor hostages in the kosher store (I understand that there might be 4 children there) are even now crying and possibly begging for their lives?

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Flinguer, no surprise really.

I was switching between TV5 monde and BBC and Sky news. On both BBC and Sky they showed the explosions and gun fire immediately, switched to TV5 monde and the journalists were still blahblahing and the journalists sur place had to insist that something seemed to be happening. Maybe TV5 monde is a little behind immediate screening, but it seemed a little odd, and ofcourse I could not check on proper french tv.

I'm so relieved it is over.

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[quote

user="mint"]No, I don't think I'd be killing the relatives

myself.  [/quote]

Yes, you would be. I don't understand how you cannot see that. You will

be deliberately putting innocent (until proven guilty and sharing genes is

insufficient evidence) people in a position that they might be killed. It's an

utterly absurd proposition, Mint, and I am astonished that you are defending

this notion.

[quote user="mint"] Desperate times, as I have said, call for

desperate measures.  You have to adopt their tactics in exceptional

circumstances (and I don't know how much more exceptional the present

circumstances can get) because the alternative is unbearable to contemplate. 

[/quote]

No, desperate times

call for measured responses. A civilised world should never adopt uncivilised

tactics, no matter how great the provocation. Although, I'm sure provoking us

to do that is exactly the intention behind these acts of terrorism. The more

everyday minorities of any persuasion feel threatened and are threatened by the majority, the more they are likely to become radicalised.


[quote

user="mint"] Moral high grounds are all very well. [/quote]

The moral high ground and reasoned, logical responses are the best weapons we

have - well, that and highly trained, well-funded security services. But

responses like yours are likely to be exactly what terrorists are hoping for. Congratulations.

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The cause of this whole scenario is the fault of Western governments.

For years they have sent troops into countries which are of no concern of ours, blow people up, and then invite people from these same countries to come and live amongst us. Then they seem surprised that all this is kicking off, well I for one am not.

Q is right, that this will give the FN a boost, I however see this as a positive development, unlike him who is always so negative about MLP.

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[quote user="Catalpa"]

[quote

user="mint"]No, I don't think I'd be killing the relatives

myself.  [/quote]

Yes, you would be. I don't understand how you cannot see that. You will

be deliberately putting innocent (until proven guilty and sharing genes is

insufficient evidence) people in a position that they might be killed. It's an

utterly absurd proposition, Mint, and I am astonished that you are defending

this notion.

[quote user="mint"] Desperate times, as I have said, call for

desperate measures.  You have to adopt their tactics in exceptional

circumstances (and I don't know how much more exceptional the present

circumstances can get) because the alternative is unbearable to contemplate. 

[/quote]

No, desperate times

call for measured responses. A civilised world should never adopt uncivilised

tactics, no matter how great the provocation. Although, I'm sure provoking us

to do that is exactly the intention behind these acts of terrorism. The more

everyday minorities of any persuasion feel threatened and are threatened by the majority, the more they are likely to become radicalised.


[quote

user="mint"] Moral high grounds are all very well. [/quote]

The moral high ground and reasoned, logical responses are the best weapons we

have - well, that and highly trained, well-funded security services. But

responses like yours are likely to be exactly what terrorists are hoping for. Congratulations.

[/quote]

Surely to Goodness, the moral high ground is the ultimate, absolute aim. Morality distinguishes civilised, educated persons from Barbarism. Abandon morality and the immoral triumph. I know it would be rather a high-pitched concept, perhaps, for “A nother I nformed site”, but honestly, how on God’s earth can this be up for discussion ?
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[quote]Déclarations des droits de l’homme: liberté de pensée et d’opinion

Rédigées au moment de la Révolution française pour l’une et après la Seconde guerre mondiale pour l’autre, rappel sur ce que disent ces deux déclarations des droits de l’homme en matière de liberté de pensée et d’opinion.

 - Déclaration des droits de l’homme et du citoyen de 1789

Article 11

«La libre communication des pensées et des opinions est un des droits les plus précieux de l’Homme: tout Citoyen peut donc parler, écrire,imprimer librement, sauf à répondre de l’abus de cette liberté dans les cas déterminés par la Loi.»

 - Déclaration universelle des droit de l’homme de 1948

Article 18

« Toute personne a droit à la liberté de pensée, de conscience et de religion; ce droit implique la liberté de changer de religion ou de conviction ainsi que la liberté de manifester sa religion ou sa conviction seule ou en commun, tant en public qu’en privé, par l’enseignement, les pratiques, le culte et l’accomplissement des rites.»

Article 19

«Tout individu a droit à la liberté d’opinion et d’expression, ce qui implique le droit de ne pas être inquiété pour ses opinions et celui de chercher, de recevoir et de répandre, sans considérations de frontières, les informations et les idées par quelque moyen d’expression que ce soit.»

[/quote]

Translation:

Declarations of human rights: freedom of thought and opinion

Written at the time of the French Revolution for one and after the Second World War for the other, a reminder of these two declarations of human rights to freedom of thought and opinion.

 - Declaration of
Human Rights and the Citizen of 1789

Article 11 "The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the most precious rights of man: any citizen may therefore speak, write and publish freely, subject to responsibility for the abuse of this freedom as shall be determined by the Act."

 - Universal Declaration of
Human Rights of 1948

Article 18 "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom to manifest his religion or belief alone or in community with others and in public or private, in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

Article 19 "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom not to be to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information regardless of frontiers, information and ideas through any media whatsoever."

Source: http://www.service-public.fr/actualites/007290.html?xtor=EPR-140
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I have been watching the unfolding events on the BBC and on BFMTV.

It is very clear that the French news channel was (is) way ahead of the BBC as far as updates and details are concerned.

The BBC reporters were still wondering about the possible links between the terrorists at least 1½ hours after BFMTV has shown proof of the link.

Not to mention the phone conversations between the French news channel and the terrorists who were apparently seeking direct public access and news coverage. These were broadcast after both situations had been resolved.

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[quote user="lindal1000"]Mint I understood what you were getting at, but whether you put wives and families in as human shields with the idea that the other side will fire on them, to me, that's the same as killing them yourself and not the job of a military that is supposed to represent a civilized country. Do you honestly think the scenes of women, children, old people crying for their lives, placed in that position by regular soldiers would be acceptable? And if they ran for it..are the professional soldiers supposed to shoot them? Yes I know that is what the terrorists would do, but that's the whole point..we don't live in a country run by terrorists.[/quote]

I think the problem many of us have is we think by our own standards and these people don't. Ground forces that fought in Afghanistan and other areas against these people will tell you that it was like fighting with one or more arms tied behind your back when you compared what each side thought was 'acceptable'. Put it this way if western soldiers used these peoples wives, children and parents as human shields these people would have no problem shooting them to get to and kill the soldiers as they would be martyrs.

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[quote user="ebaynut"]The cause of this whole scenario is the fault of Western governments. For years they have sent troops into countries which are of no concern of ours, blow people up, and then invite people from these same countries to come and live amongst us. Then they seem surprised that all this is kicking off, well I for one am not. Q is right, that this will give the FN a boost, I however see this as a positive development, unlike him who is always so negative about MLP.[/quote]

Ultra right wing politics frighten me that’s why I don't like people like Le Penn. I make you right with your first three sentences but you also have to understand that the colonial process for France and Britain was quite different. We never made our colonies into an integrated Britain and neither did we make the people within them British and give them all British citizenship.

One always hears about the hundreds of service men and women killed in places like Afghanistan but nobody talks about how many Muslim men, women and children were killed (over 174,000 approximately between 2001 and Dec 2014 just in Afghanistan). Like many ex service personnel I consider the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq illegal and that the likes of Blair and Bush war criminals in much the same way as others saw Sadam. Over 90% of us that took part in the Falklands war returned our campaign medals although it was only mentioned once in The Times and only then in the first edition before a 'D' Notice was placed on it

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[quote user="woolybanana"]There remains the wider issue as to how two young men got to this state- deprivation, lack of opportunity, overcrowding, overbreeding, bad education, discrimination, leading to mind bending by violence determined extremists. These issues are for the long term, not now, but will be very difficult to deal with.[/quote]

Sorry Wooly I wanted to reply to your comment earlier. You are of course right in the first part but not the second. The treatment of these people in France is long term but it's been going on for years. If these issues were dealt with much earlier France (and many other European countries) may not have the problems it has today.

The problem in France and the UK is that people are frightened because of the killing etc in the middle east and then see the Muslims in their own back garden. They consider them all to be the same when they are not. We need this discussion out in the open and all the political parties need to take part in this discussion yet they refuse hoping it will go away which it won't. Because they won't discuss immigration the door is open to the likes for Le Penn, Farrage and that moron in Holland to step in and fuel peoples concerns. If some of these had their way we will see Muslim symbols on shops and the mass burning of the Koran in the streets and we all know where it goes from there.

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One very clear pathway is failure at school, drifting into petty crime and particularly small time dealing, followed by a spell in prison.

There they are taken under the wing of determined older people who brainwash them much in the manner of a cult, so they come out ready to continue by going to training camps abroad where they get a military style training.

What I can't grasp is how anyone can be so totally indoctrinated in a relatively short period.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="ebaynut"]The cause of this whole scenario is the fault of Western governments. For years they have sent troops into countries which are of no concern of ours, blow people up, and then invite people from these same countries to come and live amongst us. Then they seem surprised that all this is kicking off, well I for one am not. Q is right, that this will give the FN a boost, I however see this as a positive development, unlike him who is always so negative about MLP.[/quote]

Ultra right wing politics frighten me that’s why I don't like people like Le Penn. I make you right with your first three sentences but you also have to understand that the colonial process for France and Britain was quite different. We never made our colonies into an integrated Britain and neither did we make the people within them British and give them all British citizenship.

One always hears about the hundreds of service men and women killed in places like Afghanistan but nobody talks about how many Muslim men, women and children were killed (over 174,000 approximately between 2001 and Dec 2014 just in Afghanistan). Like many ex service personnel I consider the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq illegal and that the likes of Blair and Bush war criminals in much the same way as others saw Sadam. Over 90% of us that took part in the Falklands war returned our campaign medals although it was only mentioned once in The Times and only then in the first edition before a 'D' Notice was placed on it[/quote] If you watch French TV (TF1) you will have just seen Señor Vals (the PM, BTW) state that more musulmans have been killed by (I missed that bit) than non- musulmans. Talk about skewing statistics. He also, most adroitly ducked the question (expertly slid in between his ribs by the interviewer, one of the very best I have ever, ever seen) as to why, after inviting all the “Heads” of Europe* to the manifestation on Sunday, he then lied blatantly and claimed it was a “decision taken by the political parties”. TF1 Was ahead of him though, as they showed the “Communist” Melanchon strutting his stuff just before. Vals rabitted on about Liberté, Egalité and Fraternité, adding Solidarité, Unité and all the rest. I do not think any intelligent Français/e was fooled by this barefaced rejection of “democracy”. BTW : My Dear Quillan, is it slightly possible that you could get Marine Le Pen’s name right ? We know your opinions, but,listen, it’s only five letters. L e P e n. gottit ? What’s the problem ? My sincere apologies if you are aronexic. *I would not be surprised to see Barack Hussein O’Bama there.

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Clair, they did say on both UK main news channels that they were getting information from their french colleagues who had contacts with the various french departments.

I am still not sure if TV5 monde runs slightly after the main french news, I would really rather like to know if it does. I know that the Journal the 20h is always on at 19h30 UK time, so half an hour late, but today they appeared to on live for most of the day.

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[quote user="NormanH"]One very clear pathway is failure at school, drifting into petty crime and particularly small time dealing, followed by a spell in prison.

There they are taken under the wing of determined older people who brainwash them much in the manner of a cult, so they come out ready to continue by going to training camps abroad where they get a military style training.

What I can't grasp is how anyone can be so totally indoctrinated in a relatively short period.

[/quote]

Now just to be clear exactly who are you describing? Muslim's, Israeli's North Korean's, Russian's, Chinese, American's, Catholic's, Protestant's, various Wako cults etc. Seems to apply to so many in this ever maddening world.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="woolybanana"]There remains the wider issue as to how two young men got to this state- deprivation, lack of opportunity, overcrowding, overbreeding, bad education, discrimination, leading to mind bending by violence determined extremists. These issues are for the long term, not now, but will be very difficult to deal with.[/quote]

Sorry Wooly I wanted to reply to your comment earlier. You are of course right in the first part but not the second. The treatment of these people in France is long term but it's been going on for years. If these issues were dealt with much earlier France (and many other European countries) may not have the problems it has today.

The problem in France and the UK is that people are frightened because of the killing etc in the middle east and then see the Muslims in their own back garden. They consider them all to be the same when they are not. We need this discussion out in the open and all the political parties need to take part in this discussion yet they refuse hoping it will go away which it won't. Because they won't discuss immigration the door is open to the likes for Le Penn, Farrage and that moron in Holland to step in and fuel peoples concerns. If some of these had their way we will see Muslim symbols on shops and the mass burning of the Koran in the streets and we all know where it goes from there.

[/quote]

Quillan, it is for Woolly and any others of the same mindset :

Now all sorts of things are creeping out from under the stones.

Woolly banana : “Overbreeding”. What an offensive and wholly repugnant phrase. It means “I will tell you how many children you must have”. In my book, that is, plainly and simply, eugenics, as espoused and promoted by Marie Stopes, the foundress of Planned Parenthood, especially against people of the “lower classes” and people of colour, IIRC. There is little room for discussion on this, not for those who rely on facts instead of prejudices.

Just who do you think you are you, pray, to ordain how many children a married couple must have ?

OTOH, let us discuss polygamy - why not ? It is allowed (ie, not prosecuted, OK, tolerated then) in France and England. On the other other hand, if men can marry men (who am I to judge) anything is permissible.

I have a very attractive bicycle BTW.

Time I left this thread, don’t bother to reply, I’ve seen too much rancour and nastiness, they’ll last me a long time.

*****

Oh ! Yes - I just saw it, for PaulT ( who never ever makes typos, bless his nice little cotton socks) :

You – 13 Sep 06

Me – 28 Feb 06.

Please try just a little harder.

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