idun Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Interesting point Patf, but at the end of it all, they are cowards, using guns on people with pens and pencils. Martyr, well my idea of giving one's life for an idea or belief is so far removed from theirs, that it is impossible for me to even consider that they may have even had that notion in the first place....... and the virgins, well, frankly I don't understand the 'importance' of virginity, so all that stuff about the houris, actually disgusts me..... and I cannot work out what the ghilman thing is about........[8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Clair - remember most of us are british with a different way of looking at things.My initial reaction was: the chutzpah - they come to live here with their very demanding religion and dare to challenge one of the main life principles of their hosts! It's the final insult.The 2 cultures just aren't compatible.But thinking further on those lines, some british immigrants have same attitude, but don't usually use violence to express it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindal1000 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02fwl8pThis is a link to the hard talk programme on the BBC that I thought shed some light, for me, on the situation Muslim countries. Worth listening to.. doesn't excuse terrorism at all but gives some background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I confess to never having heard of Charlie Hebdo before this terrible tragedy.Freedom of speech is at the heart of French culture, it is seen as, and is, a right. However having seen some of the 'cartoons' these people have turned out in the past I think that whilst this freedom is a right it does not give people the right to go around causing great offence to those of any religion whatever it may be. Politicians, who they also ridicule, are 'fair game' but then they know that when they become one. I am not a religious person although I come from a family that was. I think religion has caused too many problems in the world although I don't have a problem with God. Some people are deeply religious, catholics, jews, muslims etc. however I have never come across any bible, koran, tanakh where it says you should kill people who ridicule your religion or your god. Indeed if anyone is to punish them it will be God. There are much better ways of getting your point across than ridiculing people. The unfortunate repercussions in all this is that many will turn to the FN as this must be a godsend to her and her evil party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332535/We-think-the-Paris-terrorists-were-offended-by-Charlie-Hebdos-satire.-What-if-were-wrong.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Duplicate post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I've known about Charlie Hebdo for a long time. I find much of it very distasteful, but I'm definitely on the side of upholding their right to free speech, much as I do about a number of things in newspapers, TV programmes etc in England.On the subject of the article in the Telegraph, whether or not these murderers are offended by the cartoons isn't the point for me. But they definitely win if people turn against ordinary Muslims. I really wish imams would come out publicly against such terrible acts; there are plenty who aren't poorly educated men from the backwoods - we need them to stand up to be counted amongst the good guys and to bring their congregations with them.All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.We are all Charlie Hebdo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Apocryphal but profound:Voltaire never actually stated or wrote (but perhaps ought to have!)."I may disagree totally with what you say: however, I will fight to the death to allow you the right to say it!".Freedom of speech in Britain, is already drastically hobbled and muzzled by the Criminal Justice Act (Amendments) 2003 and the The Racial & Religious Hatred Act 2006.Yet, the Blasphemy Act of 1650, was repealed in 2008.Make sense??Not much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I am left with the distinct impression from that the Charlie Hebdo cartoons are taken at face value and stamped as 'offensive for the sake of being offensive.'This simplistic judgement seriously underestimates Charlie Hebdo's essential value in French society.There are puns, in-jokes, irreverent and disrespectful pokes at all extremes of behaviour, personalities, be they Johnny Halliday, political or religious leaders.I understand that these are difficult to "get" unless you follow the mag regularly, but when you think about it, isn't it the same when you get to read a copy of Private Eye?Quillan, you admit that you had not heard of Charlie Hebdo before yesterday. Please, please, read this article to get a hint of what Charlie Hebdo really represents:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332195/Charlie-Hebdo-attack-an-assault-on-Frances-truest-expression-of-freedom.htmlWith regards to "going around causing great offence to those of any religion", I'll simply quote Nick Clegg's excellent comment:[quote]... at the end of the day in a free society people have to be free to offend each other. You cannot have freedom unless people are free to offend each other. We have no right not to be offended. That fundamental principle of being free to offend people - and not saying somehow that you have a right not be offended in a democratic, open society such as ours is exactly what was under threat by these murderous barbarians. To even suggest, [...] that there is a rationale, an explanation, a motive that somehow absolves them or sheds greater light on such a horrific, cold hearted, cowardly act, I find outrageous.[/quote]I couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I have had TV5 monde on a few times today, and there has been a lot on the tv about the history of satirical cartoons and the frenchness and the brutal reality of it all. They were saying that it really started just before the revolution and insisted on how 'french' this was. I had always thought that two hundred odd years ago, there was actually plenty of satirical and brutal cartooning done about politicians and royalty in England and cannot quite work out why the french see theirs as being 'special and different' as I really cannot see it.I remember hearing about Hara Kiri and DeGaulle and let's face it the powers that be, did get that shut down, and the phoenix was Charlie Hebdo. And the Canard Enchaine must not be forgotten, but maybe not so 'hard' as the french would say.I have never believed that Charlie Hebdo was deliberately offensive to anyone, but had their 'say' about any subject which caught their attention, I may not have always agreed with their point of view, but their right to do this seems to me to be absolutely essential.And this article, well, words should fail me about this man, there again, if he feels like this, then he has to have the right to say what he has said.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/financial-times-charlie-hebdo-stupid-muslim-baiting_n_6430242.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Thank you for the link Clair from which I have used the other links to read even more.With regards to the quote from Nick Clegg all I can say is that he certainly does not live by what he has written/said. Whenever he has been 'offended' he certainly has been quite vocal and has definitely not taken his own advice.I strongly believe in the freedom of speech, it is part of what makes great countries. With any type of freedom comes responsibilities and I fear this will not be the end of it in France. Le Penn will certainly 'stir it' just like Geert Wilders who was on C4 news tonight, another thoroughly nasty piece of work. With these people I see a parallel between them and what happened in Germany in the 30's and 40's something that many of us find very distressing.This morning in our village bricks were thrown through the windows of a B&B owned by a Muslim. My neighbour told me she went to see why there were three or four Gendarme vans there (vans sound dramatic, I am talking about the small ones) and there were only about six or seven Gendarmes. She said they were standing around outside chatting then got in their 'vans' and drove off. This is the second time in eight years his B&B has been attacked. I know the guy and his wife (who is not a Muslim by the way) and they are very nice people. He is not a 'strict' Muslim, likes the occasional glass of wine etc and many would not even know he is a Muslim. With less than 200 people living in the village it should not be hard to find out who did it but like last time nothing will ever come of it.Anyway whatever side of the fence you sit on the taking of a human life is wrong and these murders are a terrible thing and like just about everyone else my thoughts are with the family and friends of those that were slaughtered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 [quote user="Quillan"]Thank you for the link Clair from which I have used the other links to read even more.With regards to the quote from Nick Clegg all I can say is that he certainly does not live by what he has written/said. Whenever he has been 'offended' he certainly has been quite vocal and has definitely not taken his own advice.[/quote]You're welcome. Re Nick Clegg: Are we reading the same comment?[quote]"We have no right not to be offended."[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I really think that the Magazine is unimportant, although it provided a useful excuse.These cartoons date from a long while ago.. The attack has provided a useful excuse to stir up anti Muslin feeling (as we have seen by some comments on this thread) which could lead to a crack-down by the authorities and a reaction from the street in an escalating spiral of violence, and bloodshed. The desire for this destabilisation seems the real raison d'être for what is going on.Everything I have seen confirms this interpretation and many people are falling into the trap of knee-jerk reflexes.This article seems to be very statesman like to me:http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2015/01/08/resistons-a-l-esprit-de-guerre_4552133_3232.html(by Dominique de Villepin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Norman, you seem to be implying that the violence is a right wing attempt to stir up anti Muslim feeling. If that is the case, tnen I thonk you misunderstand the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Clair seemed to compare Charlie Hebdo with Private Eye. Ib take Private Eye and until now had not heard of CH though I had heard on Canard but never actually seen it.From the cartoons in CH I cannot see a comparison with the cartoons in Private Eye. PPs are not as overtly radical and cartoons normally only play a small part of the magazine.However, PP has had cartoons of God and Jesus - read the captions and / or what they depict and understand why they have been drawn. This should be applied to all cartoons whatever the subject.Once again, as has been mentioned again, Hara-Kiri was banned by the State - a little perverse for the State now to clamour for freedom of the press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'd actually say that CH is probably more like Private Eye with more than a dash of OZ thrown in, for those that can remember it above and beyond the infamous Schoolkids' Issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I once bought a copy of CH and it was mostly articles, very few cartoons.Most were about politics and because I don't know much about french politics I found the satire difficult to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Looks like the gendarmes have caught up with the murderers in Dammartin. Unfortunately there appear to be hostages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]I'd actually say that CH is probably more like Private Eye with more than a dash of OZ thrown in, for those that can remember it above and beyond the infamous Schoolkids' Issue...[/quote]I'd agree with that. Possibly a touch of Viz too?Here are are a series of 'tributes' that attempt to catch their spirit (and make a change from the eternal repetition of a certain mindless phrase) [URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/bfb_album/media/22054bb959e2ba35bd0d53f0_zps6cfb225c.jpg.html][IMG]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh80/bfb_album/22054bb959e2ba35bd0d53f0_zps6cfb225c.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/bfb_album/media/1620708_10205915523947554_9015862473647339976_n_zps6e901c13.jpg.html][IMG]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh80/bfb_album/1620708_10205915523947554_9015862473647339976_n_zps6e901c13.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/bfb_album/media/B62PsJrIcAA495z_zps3d762643.jpg.html][IMG]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh80/bfb_album/B62PsJrIcAA495z_zps3d762643.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote user="Pickles"]Looks like the gendarmes have caught up with the murderers in Dammartin. Unfortunately there appear to be hostages.[/quote]OH says it might be brutal and unethical and the State couldn't do it but he would line up all the families and relatives of the killers and stand them in front of the police and move in.Not bad, I thought, for a mild-mannered, couldn't-say-boo-to-a-goose octogenarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote user="mint"][quote user="Pickles"]Looks like the gendarmes have caught up with the murderers in Dammartin. Unfortunately there appear to be hostages.[/quote]OH says it might be brutal and unethical and the State couldn't do it but he would line up all the families and relatives of the killers and stand them in front of the police and move in.Not bad, I thought, for a mild-mannered, couldn't-say-boo-to-a-goose octogenarian.[/quote]Wonderful, means they have won then because thats exactly what the extremist Mula's want people to think, say and do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Watching the film of this terrible killing I (and Mrs 'Q') were wondering how they came up with these two. As far as we can see they had their heads covered in all the video's. We both appreciate they are 'known' but can't see the actual physical link unless of course the French security services were watching them in which case why did they let it happen. I also think the word terrorist is incorrect as far as these two are concerned. The normal 'mode' would have been to go in and simply blow themselves up along with everyone else or to shoot them all then blow themselves up. The martyrdom comes from dying in the act which does not seem to be the case. Another thing, if possible, the police need to take these two alive to deny them of any form of martyrdom and also for intelligence purposes.I have been to visit the guy in our village with the B&B this morning. His wife went on a flight to Denmark last night (they are both Danish citizens) and he has boarded up his B&B and will be following her shortly. Certain villagers are walking around with a smug smile on their face this morning. So thats one less Muslim Le Penn needs to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote user="mint"]OH says it might be brutal and unethical and the State couldn't do it but he would line up all the families and relatives of the killers and stand them in front of the police and move in. [/quote][8-)] So he would be happy with assuming guilt by association and irrespective of the family's beliefs or even horror at what their relatives have done, your OH would be happy to walk them towards two proven psychopaths? Would your OH recommend an age cut off? For example, if there are siblings aged under 11, say, would they be excused being used as a human shield... would they be let off but risk becoming orphans if the gunmen think that killing their own family is for the greater good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre ZFP Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Why treat these 2 differently from any other brutal killers?I just hope that for the rest of this terrible affair thatNobody else is killed or injuredThese 2 are taken alive to stand trial and not die as 'Martyrs' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote user="Quillan"]Watching the film of this terrible killing I (and Mrs 'Q') were wondering how they came up with these two. As far as we can see they had their heads covered in all the video's. We both appreciate they are 'known' but can't see the actual physical link unless of course the French security services were watching them in which case why did they let it happen. I also think the word terrorist is incorrect as far as these two are concerned. The normal 'mode' would have been to go in and simply blow themselves up along with everyone else or to shoot them all then blow themselves up. The martyrdom comes from dying in the act which does not seem to be the case. Another thing, if possible, the police need to take these two alive to deny them of any form of martyrdom and also for intelligence purposes.I have been to visit the guy in our village with the B&B this morning. His wife went on a flight to Denmark last night (they are both Danish citizens) and he has boarded up his B&B and will be following her shortly. Certain villagers are walking around with a smug smile on their face this morning. So thats one less Muslim Le Penn needs to worry about.[/quote] Well, I think even Inspector Clouseau would have considered the fact than one of them left his Identity Card in the first getaway car as worthy of consideration as a clue...l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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