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The reason I've gone a bit more "Daily Mail" than usual is having read in the Torygraph and elsewhere about the convicted terrorist group leader and fundraiser, Mezniane, who is regarded as a danger to the public, has been allowed to use the Human Rights Act to avoid being deported from the UK to Algeria - where he comes from. Similarly we in the UK are paying for the French wife of Begbal, the convicted terrorist and mentor to the Charlie Hebdo murderers, to live in rented accommodation on state benefits when se has been convicted of terrorism-related offences and also poses a risk to the public. Not to mention the brood of convicts that Hamza sired.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]Rights bring responsibilities....I guess I have the right to be rude to my neighbour, but if it was going to bring trouble to my doorstep why would I choose too.....?[/quote]

But what if you are rude about your neighbour's religion, behind his/her back, in a publication that he/she is never likely to see and isn't forced to buy?

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That doesn't make it any less rude.....

I don't much like the idea of not being able to say what we think, but there is such a think as tact and diplomacy...if we truly want people of different faiths and none to get along then we have to respect their individual ideas, mocking doesn't win friends .....
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[quote user="Russethouse"]That doesn't make it any less rude.....

I don't much like the idea of not being able to say what we think, but there is such a think as tact and diplomacy...if we truly want people of different faiths and none to get along then we have to respect their individual ideas, mocking doesn't win friends .....[/quote]

But isn't tact and diplomacy just another way of saying "say what you like when they are out of earshot, but don't say it to their face"?

What if a basic tenet of their faith is intolerance of ALL other faiths ... and of those who have no faith?

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If your faith is good and strong it can take any assault against it.

And why are Muslims burning down Christian churches? What does that prove apart from how intolerant Muslims are - and from the numbers involved it is not a case of one or two.
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[quote user="powerdesal"]''........then we have to respect their individual ideas, mocking doesn't win friends .....'' Surely they also have to respect our ideas, it's a two-way street. Killing those who disagree with your version of faith doesn't do much in the friend winning stakes does it ?[/quote]Two wrongs don't make a right.

If we are ever going to end this then someone has to make the first move. Even if the vast majority agree to tolerate each other there will always be a few fanatics on both sides who keep the conflict going.

 

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[quote user="Rabbie"]If we are ever going to end this then someone has to make the first move. Even if the vast majority agree to tolerate each other there will always be a few fanatics on both sides who keep the conflict going. [/quote]

What sort of "first move" do you think we ought to be making?

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The thing that I am uncomfortable with is that the staff at Charlie Hebdo have published a cartoon yet they are now pretty much protected, it's someone else who will most likely pay the price, not them ....and for what, the joy of a quick laugh poking fun at someone else's religion ? They know the score, why add fuel to the flames right now?

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[quote user="Russethouse"]The thing that I am uncomfortable with is that the staff at Charlie Hebdo have published a cartoon yet they are now pretty much protected, it's someone else who will most likely pay the price, not them ....and for what, the joy of a quick laugh poking fun at someone else's religion ? They know the score, why add fuel to the flames right now?[/quote]

I would most respectfully submit that Charlie Hebdo was merely an excuse, and that if they had never published so-called "offensive" cartoons, these pigs would have found another excuse and another target. Those pigs in Belgium seemed (reportedly) to be preparing an attack on the police.

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Not at all, but why give yet another excuse, and for many French Muslims , on home soil.....my feeling is that there could have been a more conciliatory, uniting cartoon with no loss of face. It will take people with goodwill on both sides to ever reach a 'peace' that wasn't the way to encourage it IMHO

On the other hand free speech is fundamental to our society, as I said at the beginning, I feel torn
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[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Rabbie"]If we are ever going to end this then someone has to make the first move. Even if the vast majority agree to tolerate each other there will always be a few fanatics on both sides who keep the conflict going. [/quote]
What sort of "first move" do you think we ought to be making?
[/quote]Good question! I am not an expert in this field but my suggestion would be to try to build bridges with the muslim community and not assume they were all extremists. I feel RH has outlined what the initial steps should be. Obviously it will take time but a long journey starts with a single step
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I am not an expert in this field but my suggestion would

be to try to build bridges with the muslim community and not assume they

were all extremists. I feel RH has outlined what the initial steps

should be. Obviously it will take time but a long journey starts with a

single step

Tonight on Songs of Praise, they showed a muslim-indian group from the north of england sending a large cheque to those badly flooded in the Somerset floods of last year.  When the muslim group came to meet the victims of the floods, one of those victims asked why .. and they said, because you were in need, and you would have done the same for us.  She said she was rather afraid that the reciprocity would not have gone the other way.

However, this is the sort of raprochement which does do great good ... and the UK has certainly tried hard to make this work.

It is also in the spirit of christian socialism in which I was brought up, and the tenets of Rotary, of which I am also a member. 

It is two way, and does start with a single step.

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Maybe I am naive or perhaps because I am an atheist but I would consider society as a whole being more important and religion second.

Why? Well, society consists of all faiths and no faiths and is the environment we exist in. In that society are people of a number of faiths and no faith hence religion second.

Mind you, the head of the Roman Catholics has now said they can thump those who say anything against their faith - absolutely amazing.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]The thing that I am uncomfortable with is that the staff at Charlie Hebdo have published a cartoon yet they are now pretty much protected, it's someone else who will most likely pay the price, not them ....and for what, the joy of a quick laugh poking fun at someone else's religion ? They know the score, why add fuel to the flames right now?[/quote]

Because if Mohammed had not been portrayed in some way after the executions, the terrorists would be perceived to have silenced Charlie Hebdo and the right to cartoon as they choose.

This time, I don't think it was for quick laugh at all - I suspect it was a deadly serious decision. But I am very ambivalent about it and am with you and others in that: there was France, substantially united against terrorism last Sunday but by Wednesday, there are five million yah boo sucks copies of the new edition on the streets.

I wish they hadn't done that but I can see why they would choose to do as they did and I won't condemn the editorial team for it. But I do hope that CH becomes less "just because I can, I will..." provocative in future... but quietly and without fuss. Temper their freedom with responsibility, I suppose. But perhaps in the editorial team's view they already do.

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[quote user="Catalpa"][quote user="Russethouse"]The thing that I am uncomfortable with is that the staff at Charlie Hebdo have published a cartoon yet they are now pretty much protected, it's someone else who will most likely pay the price, not them ....and for what, the joy of a quick laugh poking fun at someone else's religion ? They know the score, why add fuel to the flames right now?[/quote]

Because if Mohammed had not been portrayed in some way after the executions, the terrorists would be perceived to have silenced Charlie Hebdo and the right to cartoon as they choose.

This time, I don't think it was for quick laugh at all - I suspect it was a deadly serious decision. But I am very ambivalent about it and am with you and others in that: there was France, substantially united against terrorism last Sunday but by Wednesday, there are five million yah boo sucks copies of the new edition on the streets.

I wish they hadn't done that but I can see why they would choose to do as they did and I won't condemn the editorial team for it. But I do hope that CH becomes less "just because I can, I will..." provocative in future... but quietly and without fuss. Temper their freedom with responsibility, I suppose. But perhaps in the editorial team's view they already do.

[/quote]

I appreciate what you are saying but for example if they depicted other religious leaders too, it would still have made the point, but perhaps more subtlety ...who knows, we can't go back, so to coin that dreadful phrase, it is what it is....
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