I lived in the Alpes

[idun]

How evocative, how splendid it sounds. Helas, the alpine valleys, are sometimes not the idyllic place one would imagine and I did live in one.

There was quite an article on french news tonight about the vallee d'arvee, the most polluted place in France. Excessive pollution 188days a year, Paris only has 93. Higher younger death rate than in most of France too. This includes Chamonix and the main hospital in Sallanches gets overwhelmed with especially children with various breathing problems.

The Prefecture didn't seem too happy about all the publicity it was getting as it is a great tourist spot, but people should be informed.

No idea how bad is was in the valley I lived in. At least we usually had a bit of a prevailing wind and didn't usually have any standing haze, well not that I noticed. I reckon it was polluted in the city we lived in initially, it most certainly is these days.

Thing is that if I were moving back to the Alpes, I'd still live in the valleys, because up in the lovely clear air is too remote for me, too inconvenient for daily living.

Is it the same in the Pyrenees?  Are there big pollution problems there, or haven't they got round to telling anyone yet?

[Chancer]

Not forgetting les crétins des Alpes [:D]

http://sciencejunior.fr/biologie/la-thyroide-un-veritable-chef-dorchestre/attachment/cretin-des-alpes

Actually my small area has far more cretins than they did even in the heyday before iodised salt because of the ammonium perchlorate leaching into the soil from the 100 year old buried munitions.

Everybody denies all knowledge of it when asked even high ranking politicians and health officials and are rather taken aback when I show them the following and want to know how I came by it, I tell them that my médecin told me, they say he has no right and demand to know his name, Docteur Google I tell them [:P]

http://www.ch-albert.fr/-documents/actualites/medicales/courrierperchloprofsante.pdf

And can you guess when I ask to see the water analysis certificates at the Mairies around here what chemical they dont test for? [:'(]

[Quillan]

I thought the pollution in the Alps and Pyrenees didn't actually come from local sources but more from other countries like India, China and America which is picked up by the Jet Stream directly or is a result of where it is and bought here. A classic example was a couple of years back when we saw sand from the Sahara that was picked up and dumped all over northern europe. The Alps and Pyrenees also have an affect on the jet stream for the whole of northern europe as well which further explains local 'dumping' of airborne pollution. Norway for instance used to (and still does) suffer with acid rain which is another effect of the jet stream, picking it up in one country thousands of miles away and dumping it there. Some may remember back in the 80's when dead salmon killed by acid rain in Norwegian rivers were bought to 10 Downing St in protest at the acid rain effectively created by UK fossil fired power stations etc. There were also photos of their forests where the trees had been killed by acid rain, thousands of them. It's a neat trick if you think about. Think about when you light a bonfire. If the wind is right you are OK in your garden as it dumps the smoke next door. It's a crude example but shows the effect quite simply.

[Théière]

It's a far more complicated system than you may imagine, without the fires etc the rain doesn't fall and areas suffer drought. Therefore areas of high rainfall or snowfall will get more pollution.  The pH of the oceans are falling and fish cannot tollerate it, in 20-30 years there may not be any fish living in the oceans and that is from the WHO

http://ocean.si.edu/ocean-acidification

Look at Champagne, the most polluted ground in france, known as the blue bag area as it's a rubbish tip but the joke is that the most expensive wines are sold to people.

Chancer yet again from your post whistle blowers are sought out rather than hailed, society is twisted.

[Gluestick]

In May 1979, I spent one week, working on a major project in Mexico City.

I then realised, first hand how appalling pollution could be!

Personally, I maintained, ever since the utter climate Change/Global Warming non-science lobby started gathering momentum, the very first matter which needed urgent attention was low atmosphere air pollution.

Again, I well remember meeting my younger bro for lunch, circa 1988, in London's West End. I am slightly asthmatic and it was a damp overcast day. As we walked from his offices, in the prestige, then new building, at No1 Knightsbridge, and turned the corner to go past the Berkley Hotel, I noticed hordes of Mercs and Rollers with Arabic plates sat stationary outside the hotel: with their engines running, constantly. The air was almost unbreathable.

However and of course, Western governments are addicted to fuel duty since it aids their profligacy.

Incidentally, Chancer, pas de Calais is also noted for its status as a dumping ground! Also, since it is and has been, a saturated agricultural area, very high levels of nitrogenous chemicals are a potential human health hazard in the water table......

And since may smaller communes operate their own small water syndicate, it is not at all unknown for careless stupid farmers to poison local water sources by draining off their middens into local streams........

[Théière]

Quite so Gluey, personally as energy isn't created only transferred then global increase in temperatures can only be from underground eruptions of volcanoes or increased sun radiation, of which several scientist have shown the sun to be getting hotter.

Now that is one part of the worry but us humans use the oceans as our dumping ground and that must stop as the oceans are getting more acidic and that would mean the destruction of fish and lime based creatures and the growth of silicon based which further reduces the planets ability to Co2 fix and the Oceans are the system that keep everything alive on the planet, loose that lose the world.

The change in the oceans pH has been documented world wide and the graphs produces based on the current and 30 y  trends and that means reducing pH to a point where fish will die. Because of the chemicals man makes and dumps WHO recommend you should not eat more than two portions of oily fish per week as the PCB's etc are found in the fish.

More here

[andyh4]

[quote user="Quillan"]

I thought the pollution in the Alps and Pyrenees didn't actually come from local sources but more from other countries like India, China and America which is picked up by the Jet Stream directly or is a result of where it is and bought here.

.[/quote]

You are right up to a point Q, pollution can be exported - although how much reaches the jet stream, I am unsure. Prevailing wings are quite capable of transmitting UK pollution to the near continent. Further, the jet stream rarely runs South to North from the Sahara to Europe, but prevailing winds do so more frequently.

However the problems of valleys are often created much closer to home. Looking out from our village towards the Alps (Alpes if you prefer Idun) we see a clear layer of pollution in the Rhone valley - usually a hazy bluey grey level, in strong sunlight it becomes brown as NO2 is created. Where does this come from? Well principally the industries in the valley and probably more so from the motor traffic travelling down it.

I experienced the same in Germany when I was living there and on various journeys dropped down into the Rhine valley.

I also remember my first visit to Chamonix and the snow/ice above the Mont Blanc tunnel - which was stained black above the tunnel entrances (and the air extraction systems). Clearly this was not pollution from afar. This was before the disastrous tunnel fire.

[mint]

OH saw this news item and he said that one of the causes mentioned was the prevalence of wood fires in those parts.

Like idun, I was truly shocked because I always thought that, funds permitting, I would love to live there, walking in the summer and cross-country skiing in the winter.

It was never going to be other than a dream, however, because we just could never have afforded even the most modest property there[:D]

[Loiseau]

QUOTE Theiere

...Because of the chemicals man makes and dumps WHO recommend you should eat more than two portions of oily fish per week as the PCB's etc are found in the fish.

END QUOTE

Is there a word missing here, Theiere? I expected you to say one should NOT eat more than two portions...

Angela

[Gardengirl]

We generally leave France in the early days of July until mid-September and nowadays speed limits are often lower driving up the Rhone Valley due to pollution; occasionally we call in to see a friend at Geneva, and the same thing applies around there. We've been driving these routes since long before we bought in the Gard, but it's only in the last 6 or so years that we've had this happen fairly regularly.

We've been walking in summer in the same area south of Grenoble for over 20 years, and we've noted how much higher we have to walk up to get to the glaciers in recent years. Worrying.

I've noticed those advisory notes about oily fish over recent years, and definitely don't eat more than 2 portions per week.

[Patf]

Come to the Gers for clear air! On the other hand don't - you might spoil it.

http://www.linternaute.com/actualite/pollution/gers/departement-32/pollution-air

It seems to be related to density of population too. Gers has about the 3rd lowest pop. density in France.

[crakpot]

I have lived at the west end and now the east end of the Pyrenees and the masses of Lichens on trees indicates there is little air pollution

[Théière]

[quote user="Loiseau"]QUOTE Theiere

...Because of the chemicals man makes and dumps WHO recommend you should eat more than two portions of oily fish per week as the PCB's etc are found in the fish.

END QUOTE

Is there a word missing here, Theiere? I expected you to say one should NOT eat more than two portions...

Angela[/quote]

Quite so Angela, thank you, proves somebody reads my stuff [:)]