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[quote user="chessie"]For heavens sake - for supposedly adult, intelligent people - I have been disappointed in any kind of argument about In/Out of the EU.

Childish comments, with the first post - 'bloody Tories' - OK - in the interests of fiarness how about the LimpyDumbos, and the RedMarxist Champagne Socialist party (but NOT for the Workers any more).    OK that's the rude, childish bit over.[/quote]

Unfortunately not.

[quote user="chessie"]  The AV was just a sop to the lefty wefties [/quote]
There you go again.

[quote user="chessie"]
  the Champagne Socialists love it [/quote]and again. I was always taught that two wrongs do not make a right so why do you keep repeating the type of remark you correctly condemn as childish rubbish. Don't you have any better arguments to use. Or is it a case of "Do as you say not as you do"

[quote user="chessie"]And that means leaving the EU;  how many of you are aware that the EU is in process of having its own Army - to be called in by any EU country in times of crises.    So we could see the Germans marching into Greece, the French marching into Spain - how many of you are aware of that ?    Does that feel right to you ?

Go on - counter any of the above points.   TTIP for one;  EU Army for another........
Let's get back to the original question - not all this harping on about Cameron, Cleggy, Millepeed AV etc etc.   Childish rubbish.
[/quote]Why do you assume that an EU army would be under the control of an individual aggressive country and not under the control of the EU itself. Lets face it we have something very similar with NATO and I haven't seen too many invasions in my lifetime which is longer than NATO's

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Given that the UK has first past the post and given that it has not thrown up a majority government (ie a majority of the electorate), I find it appropriate that there should be a balancing mechanism somewhere to avoid some of the potentialllly more extreme decisions which this throws up. If this is a court in Europe, then so much the better.

Given some of the more rabid members of UKIP (not speaking about those on this board), I think it is totally necessary.

As to Britain's chances outside the EU, unfortunately our industry is not strong enough to sustain us, thanks to failures in government over the last 50 years; many of the most successful companies (eg Nissan) would pull out as would most of the Financial sector.

Besides, what is this Little Islander mentality we get so much now, nothing short of nasty nationalism, akin to the Scots Nats - most disagreeable.

Now, had we fought our corner adequately in Europe, things would be a lot better, but all we do is snivel and whine (or shoukd that be 'wine'). This in fact is caused by a deep seated feeling that we are superior to 'them Europeans', which, we ain't.

So, let's get this referendum nonsense over quickly and stay in Europe where we belong - there is no Empire beckoning us, the Americans don't want us, we can't defend ourselves, the Russians are buzzing around with nasty big bombs. Face it, UK is just an offshore island worth sh*te these days.
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[quote user="woolybanana"]. Face it, UK is just an offshore island worth sh*te these days.[/quote]

I'm sure that a large percentage of the 60 odd million who live there wouldn't aggree with you, but then it doesn't surprise me that someone who constantly talks out of the lower orifice of his body should think about the UK in such an impolite manner.

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Having stalked this discussion from afar, it simply serves

to reinforce my opinion that the manifold, issues involved are to complex for

the average man in the street to make an informed decision.    Beyond that the long term implications are

so significant and far reaching that a binding referendum is a totally unsuitable

mechanism.

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I am proud to be British and also proud to be Scots. This does not mean I dislike English people. If I did, I wouldn't live where I do. When the referendum comes I will vote for the option I think is best for Britain. This may not be the same as others who are also voting for what they perceive to be the best.

There does seem to be a certain irony in the year we celebrate the 800th Anniversary of Magna Carta that we are considering leaving the European Court of Human Rights. This organisation was pushed by Churchill after the war as a way of ensuring those rights were guaranteed across Europe.

It is easy to criticise those decisions that protect people who we do not agree with but I would be surprised if anyone who has a legitimate claim does not feel their rights should be protected. Remember that no decision of one parliament in the UK is binding on its successor. Any law passed this year can be cancelled next year or at any time in the future by perfectly legal means. The Royal Veto has not been used in more than 300 years and then because the government of the day was responding to changed circumstances. It is inconceivable it would ever be used again without the consent of the government.

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[quote user="NickP"][quote user="woolybanana"]. Face it, UK is just an offshore island worth sh*te these days.[/quote]

I'm sure that a large percentage of the 60 odd million who live there wouldn't aggree with you, but then it doesn't surprise me that someone who constantly talks out of the lower orifice of his body should think about the UK in such an impolite manner.

[/quote]

Silly person
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<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td

class="txt4"><img

src="/forums/completefrance/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>mint

wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td

class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td

width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4"><BLOCKQUOTE><table

width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img

src="/forums/completefrance/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>Thibault

wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td

class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td

width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">As far as I understood it the TTIP was initiated by the USA, who

want better and more favourable access to European

markets.</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE><br><br>YES,

most convenient for large American companies to sell services and

supplies to the NHS<img

src="/forums/completefrance/cs/images/emotions/sick.gif" alt="Ick!

[+o(]" /><br><br>There are more ways to privatise the NHS

than simply starving it of

funds<br></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td

class="txt4"><img

src="/forums/completefrance/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>NickP

wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td

class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td

width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4"><BLOCKQUOTE><table

width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img

src="/forums/completefrance/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>lindal1000

wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td

class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td

width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">I never have had a strong sense of OUR COUNTRY.. and always seen

myself as European/British in equal measures. Just as well really as

although I am British by Nationality my home is France. I have as much

interest in the French economy doing well as I do the UK

economy.</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE><br>That's

why you think as you do and others think their way. I do have strong

feelings for my country, so when I get all the information and have

worked out what I feel is best for my country and family I will vote

accordingly. Remember the referendum is for the benefit of UK residents,

not a group of people who have taken up residence in another country,

and want to shout the odds because they think something in the UK may

take place that wont suit

them?<br></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

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<BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td

class="txt4"><img

src="/forums/completefrance/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>NickP

wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td

class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td

width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4"><BLOCKQUOTE><table

width="85%"><tr><td class="txt4"><img

src="/forums/completefrance/cs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>woolybanana

wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td

class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td

width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">. Face it, UK is just an

offshore island worth sh*te these

days.</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE><br><br>I'm

sure that a large percentage of the 60 odd million who live there

wouldn't aggree with you, but then it doesn't surprise me that someone

who constantly talks out of the lower orifice of his body should think

about the UK in such an impolite

manner.<br></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes quite agree with all that
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Looking at the news footage of Calais today, I'm just wondering what extra effort the French would put into trying to prevent illegal immigrants crossing the channel to a UK which wasn't an EU member state?

My guess is that they'd be helping people into the back of lorries.

And that's one of the things about immigration. It's not the immigrants we CAN count that we need to be concerned about, it's the ones we CAN'T....

Do people seriously believe that withdrawal from the EU, or the imposition of more stringent immigration controls are going to address the problem of illegal immigration? 'Cos I don't. And I'm pretty sure that, on our own, we're going to see a situation that will potentially worsen.
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About the same effort as they are now?

No fires remember, but strikers set fire to polluting tyres almost immediately in france so arrest those beggars first.

On our own the situation will be pretty much as it is now, what apart from a treaty that they ignore.However by then we may have got rid of the human rights bit so we can do what we want with the illegals.

The world seems more hostile the longer man is on it

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[quote user="woolybanana"][quote user="NickP"][quote user="woolybanana"]. Face it, UK is just an offshore island worth sh*te these days.[/quote]

I'm sure that a large percentage of the 60 odd million who live there wouldn't aggree with you, but then it doesn't surprise me that someone who constantly talks out of the lower orifice of his body should think about the UK in such an impolite manner.

[/quote]

Silly person[/quote]

So says a man? who doesn't know how to use the quote box.

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W/B wrote,

Face it, UK is just an offshore island worth sh*te these days.

That's a bit harsh. I am sure you wrote elsewhere that you had not lived in the UK for some years now. I can fully assure you that is a far nicer place here now then when you lived here.
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Perhaps the word was a little harsh, RH, so I will expand what I was getting at. The UK has no place in the world and has not had for a long time; for a while it believed it could still behave as it it still ruled the waves, then it sold out that idea (eg the sacrifice of Hong Kong), then it went into Europe and behaved (behaves) like a spolit child rather than getting in there and building the thing properly, then it kids itself that it has a special relationship with the US, to the extent of going to war on the word of Bush and his glove puppet, and now it is kidding itself that it can go it alone with nothing to offer but and ageing population, UKIP which is the NF in disguise and the inability even to police its borders.

Plus, the only people doing well are those wealthy enough to buy property which is fewer and fewer, leaving the rest short changed for life. Whatever happened to the Property Owning Democracy? Renting is an evil when one has no controls and no means to change it.

And our famous industrial base is owned by non-Brits largely who would leave at the drop of a hat if it suited them( even Thornton's chololates, now)

By all means, go it alone, you have the means and the direction, but I don't think that the good old UK is any more than an offshore bit of Europe as things stand

And, no, I don't like it, but don't see it changing in my time. In fact, I would say that it is the greatest sadness I have ever known.
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[quote user="woolybanana"]Perhaps the word was a little harsh, RH, so I will expand what I was getting at. The UK has no place in the world and has not had for a long time; for a while it believed it could still behave as it it still ruled the waves, then it sold out that idea (eg the sacrifice of Hong Kong), then it went into Europe and behaved (behaves) like a spolit child rather than getting in there and building the thing properly, then it kids itself that it has a special relationship with the US, to the extent of going to war on the word of Bush and his glove puppet, and now it is kidding itself that it can go it alone with nothing to offer but and ageing population, UKIP which is the NF in disguise and the inability even to police its borders.

Plus, the only people doing well are those wealthy enough to buy property which is fewer and fewer, leaving the rest short changed for life. Whatever happened to the Property Owning Democracy? Renting is an evil when one has no controls and no means to change it.

And our famous industrial base is owned by non-Brits largely who would leave at the drop of a hat if it suited them( even Thornton's chololates, now)

By all means, go it alone, you have the means and the direction, but I don't think that the good old UK is any more than an offshore bit of Europe as things stand

And, no, I don't like it, but don't see it changing in my time. In fact, I would say that it is the greatest sadness I have ever known.[/quote]

Blah blah blah, for heavens sake change the record, we all know you don't like the UK, probably because you are one of the brigade who would like to go back but can't afford to, so will continue at every opportunity to try to make disparaging remarks, pick out any bad news; and try to justify to yourself if not others that you are better of in La belle France. Where of course everything is wonderful, the employment is rock bottom, the economy is booming, want to open a business, no problems at all, workers are happy little bunnies who give their clients the worlds best customer service experience ever.[Www]

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And France is what exactly? Behaving as it does. Is it the only country purporting to be a food nation where Mac D's is its top selling food because its actually open. The only country where you could buy a pre made toasted sandwich in a supermarket ha. They keep bloody quiet about the things they don't want the rest of Europe to know whilst telling others how it should be done.
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Did I mention France or make a comparison? Not sure that I did.

One cannot really compare countries or their systems without many qualifications, but I would remind you that the late, much unlamented leader of the opposition was said to admire the French system, amnd look what happened to him.
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I think the issue about migrants at Calais is a different one, as most of them are sold a myth by the Mafia traffickers that the UK is the land of milk and honey and they believe it. Many do attempt to stay in France and other European countries and in fact the country that takes the most displaced migrants is Germany.

I was back in UK a couple of weeks ago.. had a great time, wouldn't want to go back and live there at the moment... but who knows.. and yes it would be possible for me to go back if I wanted to so am not bitter and twisted in that respect. I certainly didn't notice an overall anti European feel. Most people I spoke with wanted to stay in Europe. If it's true as you say that things are picking up economically in UK then why would people vote to risk that? That was what I heard people saying, not that I'm suggesting my contacts are in anyway representative of anyone but they generally seemed to think that things were getting better. People only vote for change if they think something is wrong.

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Trouble is, lindall, that the migrants at Calais are indeed a different problem, but as far as certain sectors of the UK population are concerned, and as the red tops will certainly spin it, they're all foreign asylum seekers who will take jobs, homes, benefits and anything else that isn't nailed down, from deserving, hard working Brits.

My point, perhaps ineptly made, was that any goodwill or negotiated division of the burden of these unfortunates will probably fly out of the window if the UK isn't part of the wider European Community. After all, they'll stop being an EU statistic if they can hop a lorry to a non-EU country, and I can't see the EU being sad about that.

Meanwhile the problem within the UK is that there are many (fed on the same sort of spin as above) who believe that the world ends at the channel coastline, and that anyone originating from beyond that point is at best foreign, at worst a workshy, money grabbing scrounger (because, of course, we haven't got any of our own, have we?)

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Betty wrote,

Trouble is, lindall, that the migrants at Calais are indeed a different problem, but as far as certain sectors of the UK population are concerned, and as the red tops will certainly spin it, they're all foreign asylum seekers who will take jobs, homes, benefits and anything else that isn't nailed down, from deserving, hard working Brits.

My point, perhaps ineptly made, was that any goodwill or negotiated division of the burden of these unfortunates will probably fly out of the window if the UK isn't part of the wider European Community. After all, they'll stop being an EU statistic if they can hop a lorry to a non-EU country, and I can't see the EU being sad about that.

Meanwhile the problem within the UK is that there are many (fed on the same sort of spin as above) who believe that the world ends at the channel coastline, and that anyone originating from beyond that point is at best foreign, at worst a workshy, money grabbing scrounger (because, of course, we haven't got any of our own, have we?)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I don't think we in the UK will have to worry about the ‘Calais Krew’ taking our jobs. Our watches, phones, lap top, wallets, and cars maybe. They have no wish to enter the UK and work, they don't understand the work ethic, lets face it,most of them would be challenged if confronted with a WC.

The scenes on the news yesterday are a great advert for the BRexit, as more and more British people can see what's happening. But I guess we should not really worry about all these poor ‘unfortunates’ as Dave has it all in hand it seems, I hear he is ‘monitoring the situation’ Moving forward, I think the best hope will be when the UK exits the EU, hopefully Dave will then have to go, and Boris ( who is clearly in favour of an exit) takes control.

If you think we have enough ‘workshy, money grabbers of our own’ then you must surely agree, we don't need anymore thank you.

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Given that many of the people trying to get into Britain via Calais illegally, have travelled hundreds if not thousands of miles, and that benefits and the NHS are much more closely monitored now, I doubt we have much to fear from them being work shy or afraid of making an effort. In fact frankly I would probably rather we embraced them and ejected some of the people just a few miles from here on their third and fourth generation of life 'claiming' .
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So these ‘people’ are quite happy to enter the UK illegally, then if they do enter how can they work legally? They need papers to work, how will they get these, on ebay?? IF they are asylum seekers, then asylum should have been claimed when they first entered Europe, not after a hike across the continent. They are quite happy to break all the laws before entering the UK, and you think they will be model law abiding citizens when they get here??

Good programme on the BBC tonight, you might like, its called ‘the Met’ you may enjoy it as you can see the positive contribution our immigrant friends make to the capital. ( I watched it Monday) Keeps many in the police force gainfully employed.
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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Trouble is, lindall, that the migrants at Calais are indeed a different problem, but as far as certain sectors of the UK population are concerned, and as the red tops will certainly spin it, they're all foreign asylum seekers who will take jobs, homes, benefits and anything else that isn't nailed down, from deserving, hard working Brits.

My point, perhaps ineptly made, was that any goodwill or negotiated division of the burden of these unfortunates will probably fly out of the window if the UK isn't part of the wider European Community. After all, they'll stop being an EU statistic if they can hop a lorry to a non-EU country, and I can't see the EU being sad about that.

Meanwhile the problem within the UK is that there are many (fed on the same sort of spin as above) who believe that the world ends at the channel coastline, and that anyone originating from beyond that point is at best foreign, at worst a workshy, money grabbing scrounger (because, of course, we haven't got any of our own, have we?)[/quote]

As so often happens with your offerings, Betty, I much enjoy this post of yours[:)]

I think it is right that Cameron gets a bit of stick from the French about being expected to patrol OUR borders.

Imagine, if thousands of illegal immigrants were trying to leave the UK for French shores, would he be doing anything to prevent them?

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Right - I just knew there'd be the sneering reference to 'the red tops' - some people just can't help themselves;  and the comments about people 's knowledge of the world is contemptible - what gives someone the right to make such nasty statements - same people as refer to the 'white van man' - who we all need when we have an electrical or building problem.  

How about this then, from the Guardian -

 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/the-boat-is-full-hungary-suspends-eu-asylum-rule-blaming-influx-of-migrants

- and some of the comments make interesting reading.

The UN in one of its reports referred to the UK stating that for the UK to have a 'quality of life, with sufficient living space, acess to open spaces, sufficient supplies of food, energy, water and sanitation etc etc -

The UK should have a population of no more than - 35 to 40 million' - remember that - 35 to 40 million.

The supermarkets, according to recent reports, now estimate that they are catering for a population nearer 80 million.

It is about the NUMBERS.

The ENVIRONMENTAL impact;  the stress on housing, schools hospitals etc etc.   It is the NUMBERS.

And whilst we are in the EU we CANNOT control the numbers - that is the problem.    Doesn't matter who, what, where, what colour - it is the NUMBERS that the UK cannot cope with.

Challenge you - all of you - tell me how many your home can accommodate - now TRIPLE the number -

WHEN WOULD YOU SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH - when you run out of food, the toilets don't work - when ?

Numbers, numbers, numbers - tell us .......................

Even Hungary has had enough - as have many other countries;   to call concern about present and future pressures on the UK as rascist, or to sneer at the red-tops, shows a very limited understanding of the real problems facing us.

Enough is enough ............

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