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I have one simple reason for not voting UKIP. It is because I am in favour of the UK remaining in the EU.

Nigel Farage seems to me the sort of person one can have a pleasant chat to in the pub while enjoying a pint. Discussing politics eg without ever coming to any sort of agreement. Now some of the evidence suggests that the real NF is not really this sort of person but he projects his nice image well. As NickP says he is an effective speaker and I was surprised he didn't get elected.

However the disparity between the total number of UKIP votes and the actual number of MPs elected shows the undemocratic nature of our electoral system. It is clearly absurd that gaining 36% of the votes gives you a majority or that gaining 49% of the votes gives you 95% of the seats. No wonder people are loosing faith in the democratic process when this occurs. Too many safe seats do not encourage people to take part.
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And what a funny old world it is. Why, only four short years ago, another referendum was held, in which the Great British Public could have voted to change the manner in which we elect our politicians. And, to use ebaynut's terminology, an alternative voting system " failed to get first place" .

It tends to happen after elections these days. There's a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about how unfair it all is. But when an alternative - however unsatisfactory it may or may not be- is on the table and is rejected, who is to blame? Oh yes...that would be us.

Must remember that one, though..."failed to get first place" . Good one.
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Don't let facts stand in the way of a good old moan, Betty!

The parties which lose elections are very keen on AV, but the great British public, when push came to shove, voted against it.

However, perhaps membership of the EU is influencing attitudes - you know the one where a referendum is offered, and keeps being offered until the people vote the way the powers that be want LOL
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[quote user="Rabbie"]

However the disparity between the total number of UKIP votes and the actual number of MPs elected shows the undemocratic nature of our electoral system. It is clearly absurd that gaining 36% of the votes gives you a majority or that gaining 49% of the votes gives you 95% of the seats. No wonder people are loosing faith in the democratic process when this occurs. Too many safe seats do not encourage people to take part.[/quote]

Yes but, the UK electorate had the opportunity to change this system VERY recently. We have to face the fact that only 42% bothered to vote, and they voted more than two to one in favour of keeping the existing system. I suspect that some of the 58% who didn't vote (as well as perhaps some of those who voted to keep the current system) are amongst those now crying "It's not fair" (present company excepted!!). Writing as someone who is in favour of some form of PR, I have to say that for the time being we are stuck with the current system, and until it is changed, we have to live with it as being the democratically chosen system for the UK parliament, warts and all. I haven't seen evidence of a mass campaign to change the system in the light of the perceived inequity of the results of the last election ... just complaints from the disadvantaged parties. Given that in our political system there seems to be a penchant for "strong leadership" which usually translates as almost a cult of the personality, First Past the Post facilitates this whereas for PR to work properly, a different sort of politics (and politician) is IMHO necessary. Small parties want PR until they become big parties.

I've probably said this before, but I thought that the case for AV was VERY badly presented, and the case for retaining the current system presented a whole crop of "simple facts" nonsense that any competent person could have ridden a coach and horses through, and yet the AV campaign failed to do so.

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It is interesting that the recent example of coalition politics (which would be inevitable with PR) led to people deserting the Lib Dems because they were not able to implement all the policies they had in their manifesto (nor were the Conservatives). It seems that the electorate like the idea of coalition politics but do not like the reality of it.
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[quote user="Thibault"]It is interesting that the recent example of coalition politics (which would be inevitable with PR) led to people deserting the Lib Dems because they were not able to implement all the policies they had in their manifesto (nor were the Conservatives). It seems that the electorate like the idea of coalition politics but do not like the reality of it.[/quote]

I think that there is a difference between "compromising" on what is a major policy issue and agreeing to vote for a diametrically-opposed policy. However, Westminster politicians are not used to coalition politics nor how to get the best out of PR: they are used to the "I'm the biggest bully, so bow down to me" approach. I think that PR demands a very different way of conducting politics, from the strategic positioning of the party downwards.

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[quote user="idun"]People moved to France, even before the EU made it 'easy' to do so. IF you want to move then just get on with it. Keep up to date with every last thing and make sure your french is very very good so that you can deal with anything you need to as a french resident.

[/quote]

Amen to that.

Oh and calling any political party "bloody" is not comme il faut in our book

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Thibault wrote,

I have no objections to any politician who is privately educated - after all that was the choice of the politicians' parents so you can't blame the politician. What I do object to, though, is Nigel trying to pretend he is a man of the people and not part of the establishment, when in fact, he is.

So, Ebaynut, how do you account for the fact that the people of Thanet voted UKIP in the local elections, but not for Nigel in the parliamentary elections held on the same day and where people were given the two ballot papers and cast their vote at the same time for both elections?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you BLAME the parents for giving their children the best start in life? What parent would not want the best for their children, I think you should blame all those who don't send their children private perhaps for failing their offspring, not those that sacrifice things so they can educate their children properly so they get get an advantage in this highly competitive world.

I would hardly call Nigel one of the establishment, Every other major political party want us to stay in the European project, they truly believe we should all do whatever they say, without the ability to kick out those in the European parliament. If you cannot tell the difference, that is just your poor observation skills.

As for how the UKIP vote in Thanet went regarding the local council, well the count is different for this to that of the count for the local MP, perhaps you should check how it works, and that will give you your answer.

Also please note, I have never said we in the UK should have PR, the rules that the election were held under were quite clear when it took place, so I accept the result, of course I would have liked to see more UKIP MP’s but understand the need to keep Labour/SNP out of power was an overriding necessity which caused this.

Think of it as loosing the battle for UKIP this time round, bit like Dunkirk, but if the other lot had got in there would now be no referendum, as at that time Labour had not changed its mind over the referendum. Now the referendum is happening, that is the real war, and one that will see us leaving the European project at the end.

Betty, as you seem to like the term ‘failed to get first place’ so much how about ‘the first loser’, as another way to describe someone who comes second.
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I have to congratulate you, Ebaynut, misinterpreting the clearest of sentences. Where did I say I blamed the parents? I did not - perhaps you should read my post again.

Nigel is part of the establishment - private school educated, years as a City trader - you can't get much closer to the establishment than that. He cannot pretend to be something different. By the way, membership of the establishment is not determined by a position on Europe.

AFAIK voting in local elections involves putting a cross next to the person/political party one wishes to support. The same goes for the general election. The number of candidates may vary (local elections often involve voting for a number of representatives, and the general election one). It is still very clear that the people of Thanet were prepared to vote for UKIP in the local elections, but were not willing to send Nigel to Parliament.

He is also very good at milking his expenses. A farmer in Littlehampton gave him a property to use as his campaign HQ rent free. Nigel 'forgot' to declare this for several years and only 'remembered' after it was mentioned in the media. Then there is the question of what he tried to get Carswell to do about the Short money.
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Not sure how counting votes differ from local to national elections. AFAIK, they open the ballot boxes, put the votes into piles and count 'em.

Whoever gets the most votes, wins. The rest don't. They come second, or third...or whatever. But, like so much in life, there are no prizes for coming second.

Anyway. Five years, eh.
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[quote user="Thibault"]He is also very good at milking his expenses. A farmer in Littlehampton gave him a property to use as his campaign HQ rent free. Nigel 'forgot' to declare this for several years and only 'remembered' after it was mentioned in the media. Then there is the question of what he tried to get Carswell to do about the Short money.[/quote]

That has been proven to apply to all of the political parties, just convenient to attach it to one person to make your point?

As I have said before, the people you vote for are not fresh out of Uni, they have defected from the parties others have been voting for and elected in some cases. They just kept their true feeling covered over until they felt able to air them via UKIP.  The elected candidate for UKIP has almost certainly brought over cons voters to support him so I guess they too must be white van people of limited ...........

You should be more worried about the policies coming out of the EU, you'll all end up broke through the weight of compliance and red tape.  Your hairdriers will be limited in power so it will just take longer to do the same job, likewise vacuuming, dirty house or twice as long to clean it at 900watts that's not a lot of suction.  Then bleach will be taken off the shelves as it is a biocide and already against the rules, The EU Biocidal Products Regulation 528/2012 likewise mouthwash for the same reason and the water treatment plants for drinking water won't be able to use it or  flocculation and coagulation so be prepared to boil your water or buy bottled. EU, Pathetic lunch club for the civil servants

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If I'm not mistaken, in the General Elections only British citizens can vote, whereas in local elections it is all those legally resident. On that basis UKIP should have done better in the General election, where non British immigrants were not allowed to vote, than in the local ones... where recent immigrants who have not been naturalized, are able to vote.
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Theiere wrote:

That has been proven to apply to all of the political parties, just convenient to attach it to one person to make your point?

Well it does, because it shows that Farage is exactly like all the others, despite his protestations that somehow he is 'different'.
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"lindal1000 said

If I'm not mistaken, in the General Elections only British citizens can vote, whereas in local elections it is all those legally resident. On that basis UKIP should have done better in the General election, where non British immigrants were not allowed to vote, than in the local ones... where recent immigrants who have not been naturalized, are able to vote.

Not quite right. According to the UKgovernment website the following are Allowed to vote in General elections. UK citizens, commonwealth citizens who are living in the UK and citizens of the Irish Republic living in the UK.

In local elections citizens of EU countries can also vote but UKcitizens who live abroad are not allowed to vote.
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[quote user="Thibault"]Theiere wrote:

That has been proven to apply to all of the political parties, just convenient to attach it to one person to make your point?

Well it does, because it shows that Farage is exactly like all the others, despite his protestations that somehow he is 'different'.[/quote]

Then that is how you should have written it first off.

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For heavens sake - for supposedly adult, intelligent people - I have been disappointed in any kind of argument about In/Out of the EU.

Childish comments, with the first post - 'bloody Tories' - OK - in the interests of fiarness how about the LimpyDumbos, and the RedMarxist Champagne Socialist party (but NOT for the Workers any more).    OK that's the rude, childish bit over.

As for the sniping about Cameron, the Coalition, AV, etc etc - again silly, childish - and totally distracting from the original question.  And as for the AV rubbish - that was a joke - and the British people didn't buy it because they didn't like it.    We've seen enough coalition problems in various Governments in Europe, first this party is in Government, then another Party because the coalition has failed - we are not interested.   The AV was just a sop to the lefty wefties - and the mostly conservative British people  - with a small 'c'- didn't want it.    So move on.

Any of you care to defend the EU Directive about Services - which IS adversely affecting the UK's NHS.  All the shouting in the lefty papers about this 'privatisation of the NHS' - is directly attributable to the EU;   guess G Brown knew that when he sneaked in - late - to sign the LisCon Treaty - yeah ?   Told his working class voters that, did he ?  Huh.

How about some discussion about what TTIP will mean to the UK certainly, but it will also affect France amongst others - adversely.   How many of you know about that - or are prepared to defend it.

How would you explain that the UK has no influence, under QVM, to solve the problems with TTIP when the UK is only once voice out of 27; the UK can stand on its own two feet.

Control of borders, control of immigration - desperately needed because of the increasing - ENVIRONMENTAL - pressures on the UK on concreting over farmland to provide housing;  extra demands for energy, water supplies, food, sewage treatment, schools, transport infrastructure etc etc.   How, on ENVIRONMENTAL grounds - can anyone support unplanned, uncontrolled immigration.

The massive waves of immigration the UK has seen has only really benefitted certain categories of people - but NOT the workers;  the multi-nationals love it because it gives them cheap labour;  the Champagne Socialists love it because they can employ cheap nannies, cooks, cleaners etc - and boast how wonderful they are in supporting diversity rubbish.   And the other group benefitting are those who are employed in supporting immgrants by way of language classes etc etc.

But the poor old bloke, skilled electrician, carpenter, brickie, sparks - HAS had his earning capacity reduced - and his future security - is that RIGHT ?

Even a former top bod from the bbc has now admitted, today, that the bbc dismissed the concerns of ordinary people who WERE being affected by mass immigration - and that the bbc got it wrong.

To be able to plan any kind of futre, for ALL UK citizens, either 10,000 year ancestry or recent 1st and 2nd generation immigrants - we need to have CONTROL OF OUR COUNTRY.

And that means leaving the EU;  how many of you are aware that the EU is in process of having its own Army - to be called in by any EU country in times of crises.    So we could see the Germans marching into Greece, the French marching into Spain - how many of you are aware of that ?    Does that feel right to you ?

Go on - counter any of the above points.   TTIP for one;  EU Army for another........

Let's get back to the original question - not all this harping on about Cameron, Cleggy, Millepeed AV etc etc.   Childish rubbish.

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I don't know that much about the TTIP apart from the fact that it is US led initiative which seems to have been agreed by most European leaders. Good or bad, I'm not sure.. but explain to me why the UK would be in any better position outside of the EU on this one? Are any of the major parties suggesting that they would not sign up to it if they were not part of the EU? You say Britain can stand on it's own feet but on what basis, other than we used to 50 years ago when we actually had a manufacturing industry that was British owned and when the world was not ruled by multinational companies based in whatever country suits them?

I don't find the idea of a EU army any more worrying than any other sort of army.. and I don't quite follow your argument re: Germans marching into Spain.. Of course I guess in an EU co ordinated army then troops from any EU country could be stationed in any other, but that's not what I understand by 'marching', which to me implies invading.

Whatever you feel about immigration I don't think you can get away from the fact that no one has a national economy anymore..things are run globally..If you believe in a free market then we are competing for manufacturing with goods made in Taiwan or Korea where labour costs are minimal so yes the salaries and opportunities for people doing those kind of jobs in Europe will change.

I never have had a strong sense of OUR COUNTRY.. and always seen myself as European/British in equal measures. Just as well really as although I am British by Nationality my home is France. I have as much interest in the French economy doing well as I do the UK economy.
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[quote user="lindal1000"]   

I never have had a strong sense of OUR COUNTRY.. and always seen myself as European/British in equal measures. Just as well really as although I am British by Nationality my home is France. I have as much interest in the French economy doing well as I do the UK economy.[/quote]

That's why you think as you do and others think their way. I do have strong feelings for my country, so when I get all the information and have worked out what I feel is best for my country and family I will vote accordingly. Remember the referendum is for the benefit of UK residents, not a group of people who have taken up residence in another country, and want to shout the odds because they think something in the UK may take place that wont suit them?

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"They just kept their true feeling covered until they felt able to air them via UKIP"

1. I'm not sure I'd want to vote for a hypocrite. Not even one who had come out of the closet. Probably explains why I have so much trouble voting in the first place, though.

2. That also speaks to a lot of the UKIP -voting electorate, whatever their transport of choice. I'm sure there are a number for whom the thought that their drinking water is at risk is the primary motivator, but I'm equally sure that there are other who thank the Lord that there's now an acceptable face of the BNP.
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[quote user="NickP"][quote user="lindal1000"]   

I never have had a strong sense of OUR COUNTRY.. and always seen myself as European/British in equal measures. Just as well really as although I am British by Nationality my home is France. I have as much interest in the French economy doing well as I do the UK economy.[/quote]

That's why you think as you do and others think their way. I do have strong feelings for my country, so when I get all the information and have worked out what I feel is best for my country and family I will vote accordingly. Remember the referendum is for the benefit of UK residents, not a group of people who have taken up residence in another country, and want to shout the odds because they think something in the UK may take place that wont suit them?

[/quote]

I don't disagree with some of what you say. However this discussion is taking place on a forum who's target audience is people living in or about to live in or about to buy a property in France so don't be surprised if there are quite a lot of people who don't share your view. As to the referendum and who can vote, there are 2.2 million British Nationals living in other EU countries, and many of those, including me, will be eligible to vote in the referendum. Whether you like it or not the government has decided that the referendum is for the benefit of UK nationals who are resident in the UK or have been resident in the UK in the past 15 years. So yes, I have been given a vote and I intend to use it to vote in my best interests in the way that you intend to use yours to vote in what you feel are your best interests. That's democracy.
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Thibault wrote,

I have to congratulate you, Ebaynut, misinterpreting the clearest of sentences. Where did I say I blamed the parents? I did not - perhaps you should read my post again.

Perhaps it is you sir, who should re-read mine. Perhaps then you may notice there is a question mark after my sentence, asking for you to clarify your position. You clearly stated that it was not the politicians fault they were privately educated, and then you implied that it was the parents to blame as they sent them there. So if you don't blame the politicians for their private schooling and you don't blame the parents also, I fail to see WTF else you can ‘blame’ ( you used this word) for the high quality education they have.

Thibault wrote,

I think it is significant that in Thanet, UKIP won the local elections but when it came to the parliamentary seat, Farage lost. Given that the elections were held on the same day, that actually tells us something.

Indeed that sentence does tell us something, it tells me that you know nothing about the difference between a parliamentary election and elections for district councils and the way they work and how the votes are counted.

Let me explain briefly how it works because it would appear that both you and ‘Betty’ don't know first year politics too well.

In the general election an area ( know as a constituency) votes for the person they want to send to Westminster as their MP, everyone in that area has their votes counted, and the person with the highest number of votes becomes that areas MP, this is know as a parliamentary election.

When it comes to voting for the district council this one large area (constituency) is divided into what are called wards, each ward elects a district councillor. Dependant of the geographical spread of the support for the winning party's vote in the parliamentary election within that area, you can and often do, get a different party in parliament to who controls the district council.

Thibault wrote,

He is also very good at milking his expenses. A farmer in Littlehampton gave him a property to use as his campaign HQ rent free. Nigel 'forgot' to declare this for several years and only 'remembered' after it was mentioned in the media. Then there is the question of what he tried to get Carswell to do about the Short money.

Ah yes, I remember this attempt by the Tory press with this one. Was he charged with any crime? As Nigel explained at the time, as an MEP he has an allowance to run an office. Yes he did receive that office rent free, this he always declared, but anyone who has run an office will know rent is but a small part of the expenses incurred. Nigel never claimed for rent on the building, he claimed for the electric used, the water rates, the insurance, the phone bill, the post bill the paper used, and one hundred and one thing's used to maintain and run that office, as he is fully entitled to do..
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Lindal1000 wrote,

I don't disagree with some of what you say. However this discussion is taking place on a forum who's target audience is people living in or about to live in or about to buy a property in France so don't be surprised if there are quite a lot of people who don't share your view.

On the contrary, on a forum like this for UK citizens' living overseas, I would expect my views to be quite solitary ones. I am hearted by the number of people on here opposed to the EU, not Europe of course , as they are two different things.

I am really amazed anyone would see the EU as a good thing. Who would wish to be told how to live their life by a parliament they could not change at the ballot box??
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[quote user="ebaynut"]Lindal1000 wrote, I don't disagree with some of what you say. However this discussion is taking place on a forum who's target audience is people living in or about to live in or about to buy a property in France so don't be surprised if there are quite a lot of people who don't share your view. On the contrary, on a forum like this for UK citizens' living overseas, I would expect my views to be quite solitary ones. I am hearted by the number of people on here opposed to the EU, not Europe of course , as they are too different things. I am really amazed anyone would see the EU as a good thing. Who would wish to be told how to live their life by a parliament they could not change at the ballot box??[/quote]The EU parliament is elected and so can be changed by the electorate. It may well be that the blocs gaining a majority are not those you would vote for but that is democracy. For me the part of the EU constitution I find the most difficult to accept is the power given to the Council of Ministers made up by representatives of each member government. It might be better if the EU parliament had more power not less.

After all 64% of us who voted in the UK general election last month have got a government we did not vote for but that is the system we as a people decided on and we have to accept the result.

 

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