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Calais ... again


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I love all the condemnation about people in poorer countries having loads of babies. If you can't get enough to eat do you honestly think people can put aside enough money to buy contraceptives.. even if they could get them? Family planning is a luxury of countries that are relatively prosperous, not one afforded to the third world. Evidence is that when women are given access to reliable contraception and are freed from poverty and hunger, they take it willingly.

We all think we contributed to France by coming here. How many people contribute to their healthcare via CMU? Something that we see as 'paying' but in French eyes it is scrounging as you aren't contributing to all the other social charges that come from being employed or having a business. If you are retired and on an S1 then yes the UK pays for your healthcare, but the sheer numbers requiring treatment in areas such as the Dordogne puts a huge strain on areas that can barely recruit enough doctors to cover the needs of the aging French population.

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It's certainly the same scenario when people leave their country of birth and then complain about it from a distance. Especially when they accuse others of fleeing rather than staying and trying to make the difference they wish to see by doing something about it. Smacks of "Do as I say, not as I do" in my book.

Leaving the UK for France is an easy, accessible and straightforward option when you have the means (financial or otherwise) and the choice to do so. If you're leaving abject poverty and in humane treatment to try and improve your life, it takes a damned sight more courage and sacrifice.

But, like I said, in the migration game, it's all about your bank balance and your ethnicity. We are almost back to the days of Empire, when "Being British" was considered sufficient to allow one to go anywhere and call it home (whether the indigenous population liked it or not) but "Being Foreign" was considered a stigma which could never be overcome.
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a few months ago I heard an interesting discussion on BBC Radio 4 about family sizes in third world countries. Their statistical expert pointed out that family size had shrunk significantly and there were very very few countries where the average number of children per family was more than 3 and this was sinking.

Remember that with high infant mortality the culture needed a high birth rate to keep the population stable. A hundred years ago large families were the norm here and it takes time for this to correct itself.
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Of course, the UK is one of the best places to live in the world, and since Mr Blair opened the door, the world and his camel can enter. How do we feed all these people? The UK is a net importer of food, so we don't have a surplus of the stuff.

Where do we house them? I am always hearing that there are not enough houses in the UK, but that's rubbish, there are loads of houses in the UK, acres and acres of our beautiful countryside is getting covered to make more. There is no shortage of houses, It too many people that's the problem, The UK is full, if mainland Europe and Greece wish to save boat people then they should let them stay in their lands, we don't want or need them in the UK.

Come the brexit in the next year or so, it should help to stop this constant flow of people from around the world arriving here, and its LONG overdue.

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[quote user="ebaynut"]Come the brexit in the next year or so, it should help to stop this constant flow of people from around the world arriving here, and its LONG overdue.[/quote]

I'm really not sure how leaving the EU will reduce illegal immigration. It might reduce legal immigration of EU citizens, but that's it. Are migrants from within the EU a problem?

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[quote user="Pickles"]
I'm really not sure how leaving the EU will reduce illegal immigration. It might reduce legal immigration of EU citizens, but that's it. Are migrants from within the EU a problem?
[/quote]You must remember that there are many people who regard the EU as the root cause of all our problems and if the UK leaves then everything will be wonderful. Unfortunately some of them who post on this forum may have to leave the UK if we leave because of pensions and healthcare issues.
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I suspect that there will maybe be more who will have to leave France, than maybe 'us' who would have to leave the UK.

I shall not get upset about all this, I just go with the flow, I have never been in love with the 'building' where I lay my head in my life, just who is next to me. And so 'we' shall move on if we have to!

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Pickles wrote.

I'm really not sure how leaving the EU will reduce illegal immigration. It might reduce legal immigration of EU citizens, but that's it. Are migrants from within the EU a problem?

Thank you for your question, let me explain further. I am not personally concerned if the high number of people entering the UK are deemed as ‘legal’ or ‘illegal’, I see no difference other than some authority I disagree with has deemed them as such.

Leaving the EU will bring numbers down who enter for sure. When the EU was just places like Germany, France, Netherlands etc, then there was no problems, similar country's with similar views and ways of life.

When the eastern bloc joined, millions who were in poverty in their home countries could move to the more prosperous places, (and I don't blame them for doing so), but come in their droves they did, and the UK is filling up fast because people like Tony Blair set out to deliberately change the UK.

Now many of these people from the first wave came to the UK to work, and better themselves, but then the next wave came as more joined the EU. Russia is a ‘gangster’ style country, and the nearer to there you get the more crimes you get, and now they can all enter, bringing their ‘enterprises’ with them. Just see the crime watch program for more details.

But they are not the worst of the immigrants to the UK, sure they want our money, homes and country, but it does not end there, because there are others coming here, setting up mosques where ever they can and blowing us up, hacking our solders to death in the streets, raping our young vulnerable children, of which there have been many instances of. Just last night another gang in Oxford were on the news following dawn raids.

Now we have the boat people landing in Greece, they will be allowed to stay in Europe of course, they will be processed, given EU passports, then they will be ‘legal’ to enter the UK, when the brexit happens, our borders will be tighter, and they will not then be allowed in. Too late as far as I am concerned, but better late than never.

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I guess this ‘bird feeder’ joke has been around awhile now, but it does illustrate the situation quite nicely I am sure you will agree.

The Bird Feeder

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it lovingly with seed. It was indeed a beautiful bird feeder.

Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the

continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.

But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table and next to the barbecue.

Then came the bird 5hit. It was everywhere; on the patio tile, the chairs, the table... everywhere!

Then some of the birds turned mean. They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket.

And others birds were boisterous and loud. They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded

that I fill it when it got low on food.After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. So I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone.I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio.

Soon, the back yard was like it used to be ... quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now let's see....

Our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, and free education and allows anyone born here to be an automatic

citizen.Then the illegal?s came by the millions. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 or more families;

you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by a doctor in an emergency room because it is filled with illegals;

Your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English.

Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to 'press one' to hear

my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than 'The Union Jack' are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more

rights and free liberties.It?s just my opinion but:

Maybe, just maybe, it's time for the government to take down the damn bird feeder

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Our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, and free education and allows anyone born here to be an automatic

citizen.

I don't know any government agency that gives out free food! The Salvation Army runs a few kitchens and food banks are run by charity donations....

Not true re automatic right to be a citizen if you were born in the UK either..see here https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-citizenship

It changed in 1983 and you are only entitled to automatic citizenship if your parents were British or naturalized British at the time of your birth.

"Then the illegal?s came by the millions. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 or more families;

you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by a doctor in an emergency room because it is filled with illegals;"

I'm not quite sure when you refer to 'illegals' what you mean. If you mean people who have entered the UK secretly and live in the UK illegally then I guess no one really knows how many of those there are as they are illegal! If you mean people who have entered the UK either with work permits, immigration visas or those who have been granted leave to remain then they are not illegal. 'Illegal' are not entitled to free healthcare unless it is life-threatening. There was a case recently of an Albanian man who needed brain surgery for tumours. It was discovered that he had infringed his visa and he was removed from the hospital bed in his hospital gown and taken to a detention centre to await deportation.

"Your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English."

Schools in places like Tower Hamlets now receive some of the highest grades in the country!

Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box;

?? Never noticed it in UK, although the ones you buy in LIDL are in several languages.

"I have to 'press one' to hear

my bank talk to me in English, "

I've never found it that simple! You usually have to press more than just one to get your bank to talk to you at all! I don't think you can blame that one on the immigrants but on the desire of the banks to reduce costs by outsourcing their customer services to overseas call centres.

Actually looking at your original post, with talk of emergency rooms and 2nd grade classes I wonder if it was actually originally written in the US?
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Lindal, I applaud you for paying such close attention[:)]

Me, I can't be bothered to read posts which are simply rants with "foreign-sounding" expressions such as the two you have highlighted.  I always think that if you must have a rant, at least make it original and preferably entertaining and maybe, just maybe, based on a few facts.

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Immigration itself is not a problem but it has to be planned for in a big way. And it brings responsibilities on both sides.

The poor sods at Calais are the victims of scams and sometimes of political persecution. Not a lot to be done until governments step in in a big way.

What GB cannot cope with is big influxes into single areas, they must be spread widely so that services can cope.
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Perhaps Lindal1000 you should read the first line of the post, but in case you missed here it is again,

I guess this ‘bird feeder’ joke has been around awhile now, but it does illustrate the situation quite nicely I am sure you will agree.

Its just a copy/paste jobby !

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[quote user="ebaynut"]Perhaps Lindal1000 you should read the first line of the post, but in case you missed here it is again, I guess this ‘bird feeder’ joke has been around awhile now, but it does illustrate the situation quite nicely I am sure you will agree. Its just a copy/paste jobby ![/quote]The danger of quoting something like this is that it gives credence to some of the myths surrounding immigration to the UK. It is beyond dispute that without immigrant workers the NHS would not be able to function. As Lindal1000 says the UK government does not run  food banks but some people reading the post may well think so.

In my opinion this issue is too important to decided by people's misunderstanding of the real situation. The decision should be made on the basis of facts not on myths, perceptions and misunderstandings

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I watched a bit on the news about Calais fencing and the move up the coast to other ports . As a past boat owner with it moored in a UK harbour ..If I was French and had one in a marina I would be forever wondering if it was srtill there given the current situation . How l;ong before they start fetching up on the UK beaches ?
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Rabbie wrote,

The danger of quoting something like this is that it gives credence to some of the myths surrounding immigration to the UK. It is beyond dispute that without immigrant workers the NHS would not be able to function. As Lindal1000 says the UK government does not run food banks but some people reading the post may well think so.

In my opinion this issue is too important to decided by people's misunderstanding of the real situation. The decision should be made on the basis of facts not on myths, perceptions and misunderstandings

This is indeed so, so why do you keep banging on with your lie ‘It is beyond dispute that without immigrant workers the NHS would not be able to function’

Total and utter rubbish!!!, the NHS would be a far better place without immigrants in it. If you took all the people in the UK that are employed trying deal with, and to keep the immigrant population under control, such as the Police, social workers, child support agencies, immigration control, border force, crime detection agencies, social workers, officers in operation trident in London, MI5, anti terrorist units, add to them the cost to the legal system in dealing with immigrants, providing homes to them, as none have anything of worth to bring into the UK and this is just to name a few, if all the people in the above named professions were to be employed in the NHS, there would be no shortage. Its just that the government prefer to offer peanuts in pay in the NHS, that it seems to attract immigrants.

If they paid a proper wage, many of the people in the aforementioned professions, would no doubt be happy to work in the NHS.

Then if you deduct the number of immigrants who use the NHS from the figures, the amount of staff needed would also be far less.

Watch the UK news, see the crimes and air time that is taken up with immigrants, perhaps then you will agree, we really do NOT need them here.

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[quote user="ebaynut"]Rabbie wrote, The danger of quoting something like this is that it gives credence to some of the myths surrounding immigration to the UK. It is beyond dispute that without immigrant workers the NHS would not be able to function. As Lindal1000 says the UK government does not run food banks but some people reading the post may well think so. In my opinion this issue is too important to decided by people's misunderstanding of the real situation. The decision should be made on the basis of facts not on myths, perceptions and misunderstandings This is indeed so, so why do you keep banging on with your lie ‘It is beyond dispute that without immigrant workers the NHS would not be able to function’ Total and utter rubbish!!!, the NHS would be a far better place without immigrants in it. If you took all the people in the UK that are employed trying deal with, and to keep the immigrant population under control, such as the Police, social workers, child support agencies, immigration control, border force, crime detection agencies, social workers, officers in operation trident in London, MI5, anti terrorist units, add to them the cost to the legal system in dealing with immigrants, providing homes to them, as none have anything of worth to bring into the UK and this is just to name a few, if all the people in the above named professions were to be employed in the NHS, there would be no shortage. Its just that the government prefer to offer peanuts in pay in the NHS, that it seems to attract immigrants. If they paid a proper wage, many of the people in the aforementioned professions, would no doubt be happy to work in the NHS. Then if you deduct the number of immigrants who use the NHS from the figures, the amount of staff needed would also be far less. Watch the UK news, see the crimes and air time that is taken up with immigrants, perhaps then you will agree, we really do NOT need them here.[/quote]

 I always think it is a sign that you are winning an argument when your opponent resorts to abuse.

I have stated my honestly held opinions which I do not regard as lying. It has been stated that 17% of NHS staff are immigrants so it seems unlikely they could be dispensed  without being replaced by expensive agency staff that are already costing the NHS a lot of money. According to government statistics the vast majority of EU immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy so I would question your assertion that there are large savings to be made. Living as I do in England I listen to the news on a daily basis and I do not get the same impression of immigrants as you do.

I am also puzzled by your assertion that we could reduce the number of people employed by Border force. The argument put forward by most of those in favour of a Brexit is that we could have tighter controls which would be unlikely to need fewer people. Also there is a chance that a Brexit would lead to a return of many retired UK citizens currently living in other EU countries which would increase the pressure on the NHS and Old Age care.

As I said earlier the consequences are not easy to predict and leaving the EU is not a panacea as some have suggested. All I ask for is an honest debate about the issues and not descending into personal abuse.

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I find the idea that people currently employed as police officers, social workers, those in immigration control, MI5 etc etc could suddenly become workers in the NHS as simply not feasible. Some may make admin and clerical workers, but what about doctors, surgeons and nurses? The idea is nonsense.
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It seems HMS Bulwark and others at this very moment are charging about off the coast of Italy picking of thousands from boats and the BBC news states another 500,000 are waiting to make the attempt to cross the Med ..... Al Jazeera news states a million are preparing to make the crossing this summer . Who is likely to be stating the correct figure .?..I suspect Al Jazeera .I also suspect there will not be many nurses for the NHS to recruit among that lot but we can assume their second language for many will be English so we know where they will be heading The Immigrant population of Calais about to grow larger than the French one soon if this keeps up and IMO The EU do not have any idea what they are going to do about the problem as it means that they have to think about something other than dreaming up regulations for keeping farmers happy and the like .What to do with a million and more unwanted people to handle means real tough decisions to be made and we will wait until the sun freezes over for those from Brussels

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I don't know anything about the percentage of immigrants working in the NHS.

What I do know is that while I was still teaching lots of our very able pupils were not able to get into medical school because there were just not enough places. Perhaps if previous governments had invested enough in training the question would not arise.

Hoddy
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It does invest in enough training places but once qualified many go off to work overseas where conditions are better, or just get fed up and give up. However you could be right in that for years there has been under investment in the NHS thus making it difficult to retain staff. However now the damage has been done I can't see that changing anytime in the future, and so if you want enough trained nurses and other healthcare staff in the foreseeable future to treat the ever increasing ageing population, immigrants represent a cheap and willing source of labour. I emigrated and worked in Canada for several years on that basis!

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