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The Killing Fields of France?


mint
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I suppose that if you are punishing someones family because of their actions on the basis 'they must have known'. So when someone is convicted of paedophilia then their family should also be sent to prison because 'the must have known'.
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I refrained from participating on this forum  quite some years back: mainly since I was  increasingly exercised at being called a racist  etc by the clique of Liberal-Left myopic and  blinkered "Rose Coloured Glasses" regime.

I repeatedly suggested European society would  rue the day it allowed itself to accept the  insanity of uncontrolled and mass immigration  and the ideological concept of multiculturalism  which politicians and Left-Liberal ideologues  supported and encouraged: the very worst aspect  being the failure to demand incomers adopted  their host society's social mores and culture.

I additionally suggested that bending the knee  to  Islam and the laws of Islam would ensure we  all paid a salutary price.

Now we see and experience the results of this  mad attempt to create a utopian existence,  which has, like ashes in the mouth, turned out  to be dystopian!

The Islamic murdering scum who killed an  innocent Catholic priest in France, were  followers of the Salafist sect, a break-away  group of mainstream Sunni islam and much akin  to the Wahabist sect.

Wahabism has its roots in Saudi Arabia and both  the Wahabis and Salafists stand for the return  of Islam to absolute fundamentalism, which  includes Jihad and killing of apostates and  Kafirs who do not accept "The one true faith".

Salafism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

What is surreal about this heinous slaying is  the singular fact, the assassins were both  active worshipers at a nearby (One block from  the church) mosque, built on land donated,  free, by Father Hamal's own parish! No doubt in  the cause of promoting interfaith unity...

"Islamist Maxime Hauchard, who joined the  Islamic State in Syria in August 2013.  Hauchard’s name appears on the black list of  most wanted terrorists by the U.S. State  Department.

Hauchard, who also frequented the mosque of  Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray, appeared in a 2014  video of the beheading of American aid worker  Peter Kassig and 18 Syrian military captives."

The core problem civilised honest people face  is their politicians have utterly failed them.  Worse still, having "sold" their spavined  ideological vision of open borders, free  movement of people and multiculturalism (as  well as numerous other "Pups"!), they cannot  demonstrate sufficient moral compass, integrity  and honesty to admit "We were wrong! We wholly

mismanaged this; mia culpa. So sorry!"

And thereafter take active steps to resolve the  multiple problems and human disasters they  themselves have created.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

However, instead of just saying "Sorry!", they  are now increasingly attacking those who  rationally question what is happening, by  bringing in legislation which forbids negative  comment or critique! Shades of Hitler's Germany  and Stalin's Russia.

Just this afternoon, Mad Mutti Merkel has insisted Germany's immigration plans will proceed as before! Neatly ignoring the incumbent realities: over 75% of the incomers are functionally illiterate. Few have been thus far employed since they are unemployable. The cost of bringing their health up to a minimum standard has been carefully estimated by German health authorities in the multi-billions, Per year!

The alcoholic lunatic Junkers insists both free movement of people and Schengen will persist. Now how does this clown think Jihadists have been and are smuggling in large quantities of military-level arms and explosives? Alright for him, of course, with an armoured car and chauffeur and 24/7 armed security guards.

Of course voters are turning and will  increasingly turn towards Marine Le Pen, UKIP,  Gert Wilders, Germany's AfD, et al.

Even Roy Hattersley, one of the primary  architects and cheerleaders for and of  multiculturalism admitted "We were wrong!".  Brownie points for Wroy.

Any numbskull with half a brain-cell, surely,  could have evaluated cosmopolitan society such  as New York and quickly realised people tend to  polarise within cultural groups with which they  identify.

In relative terms of modern sociology, they  self-create, Ghettos since trying to integrate  amongst a majority sharing the host's language  and historical heritage, threatens their lives  and survival and they are uncomfortable. They  abhor integration.

IT IS NOT "Racist" to become exercised over a  religion which demands disparate modes of  behaviour and standards: it is NOT racist to  question how any socio-economy can accommodate  the instant absorption of n hundred thousand

incomers without adding extra strains upon its  infrastructure,housing, social provisions  (Health, Education, etc), transport systems  etc.

It is called Pragmatism or Realism.

One aspect Westerners raised on a diet of  social, legal and national Christian-Judaic  heritage cannot grasp, is the insidious nature  of Islam; the mythical concept of "The nice  Muslim family up the road" lulls people into a  false sense of security.

If push comes to shove and fearing for their  future, even non-fundamentalists will be  persuaded to side with their religious cause,  rather than stand against it and suffer  persecution and even injury or death: and here  is the core problem.

Islam is precisely identical to say, the Mafia  and the IRA; "Once in, never out!". In reality,  it is a cult, no different to the Moonies or  the Davidians, which aims at brainwashing  simple-minded souls lacking discernment and  discretion. (Study Iran post the Ayatollah's  revolution and even still now).

Many previous Muslims who converted to  Christianity, for example (Northern England  particularly) have suffered dreadfully for  daring to turn their back on "The one true  faith"; even being murdered.

The nice Muslim corner shop keeper in Glasgow,  for example; his "Offence" against the one true  God, was to be brutally stabbed and killed.  despite his absolute to worship in whatever  manner he saw fit. However, for Islam, he was  apostate.

Pardon me? Under British law, the man could  worship the Islamic Great Pumpkin in the Sky,  if that was his own fervent desire.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-w est-35976958

How could any compassionate human being,  accept, or condone this sort of behaviour in  the name of "religion"?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/27/wels h-schoolgirl-was-kept-prisoner-in-a-cage-starve d-and-abused/

FGM; Honour killings; the list goes on...

You will not read most facts and searching  analysis in mainstream supposed "News" media,  since these sources are either horrendously  biased (BBC, Guardian, Independent, ITV,  Channel 4, most French TV stations etc). They  sycophantically support the elitist political  system, which itself is in thrall to  globalisation, slave labour and Big Capital,  represented by such as Goldman Sachs et al.

What, perhaps, amuses me most about the  Lefty-Liberal mindset,is their simultaneous  fervent support of feminism and Muslim women's  "right" to insist upon wearing Hibab and/or  Burqa. When in truth, there is no Hadith or  tenet of Quran which demands women are so  attired and the reality is they adopt this mode  of sartorial eccentricity purely and simply on  cultural grounds, since women are third class  citizens subjugated by men suffering from  extreme male chauvinism.

Yet, the Bleeding Heart Do Gooder Liberal  Luvvies insists proscription of such dress, is  "Religious persecution"! Furthermore, Islam is  not " A Race"; it's a religion, perhaps, if one  might honestly describe a cult which  brainwashes adherants as "Religion",

Wake up and have a "Smell The Coffee" moment,  before all you hold dear and have strived for  and the World you bequeath to your children and  grandchildren is a dystopian nightmare of  blood, war and subjugation.

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Three cheers.

Handclaps x 100

Bravo, bravo, bravo

At last;  someone with more intelligence than me, more erudition, more learning - but able to articulate exactly what I've tried to say - and been called 'rascist'.

Now I don't feel as though I've been whistling in the wind.  

Well done - excellent post.

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Welcome back Gluestick!

 

You have shown remarkable restraint keeping your peace all this time.

 

I came within a hairsbreadth of starting a serious Relationship with une Musulmane recently, my heart and body was shouting at me to go ahead but my sixth sense was telling me to be wary, I felt she wasn't being 100% honest with me and my gut feeling was correct as her so called "ex" didn't see himself that way and when he measured me for an orange boiler suit I knew it was time to implement an exit strategy.

 

But how to do so with someone that was coming on stronger and stronger? I used a technique that has never failed in the past, I lent her some money and have not seen or heard from her since [:D][:P] 

 

The way things are going I think that it was again someone on high looking out for me, as intelligent, modern, enlightened and independant that she is when push comes to shove she would have to do as you say for the sake of her children, a few décades ago someone like her could have left say Tehran to live a decent existence in the UK or another european country whilst still following her religion, she like many others only dresses in the way she is supposed to when returning to her country, it wont be very long before all muslim women in Europe will be indistinguishable from their peers in the extreme countrys.

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Gluestick, a very interesting post - do post more often.

I can always remember commenting to an Arab about the number of Arabs killed by Israelis and vice versa. Her comment was that the numbers were low compared to the number of Arabs killed by Arabs.

But have we not seen one faith killing another faith closer to home - Northern Ireland.

In the Arab world the ones that normally get quoted are the Shia and Sunni Muslims.

Always thought that religion was about tolerance and understanding, shows how wrong you can be :(
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Fantastic post Gluestick.

But, did we not (the British and the Americans) create Deash/ISIS ? I seem to remember that we disbanded Sadams Hussains vast Sunni national guard when we invaded Iraq thus allowing highly trained military personal to club together to create an army of death.

So to be fair, this is all our own fault. Ok most were against the war but nevertheless we created this situation. We are to blame.

So we either accept the consequences or do something radical.
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Always thought that religion was about tolerance and understanding, shows how wrong you can be :(

In most cases, it still is, or at least was.  But some religions have intolerance built into them, mainly caused by clerics own interpretation of the scriptures for their own ends ... cf the Spanish Inquisition, the Cathars, etc from history.  I make no mention of Islam, as I have not studied it like others on this forum, but that too has intolerance (ie the equivalent of the historical Christian approach "must convert the heathen",) built into I believe.

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Isn't the difference, though, that the Bible has been modified, revised and it's followers grown up;  moved on from the medieval times to a mature tolerance and understanding of other faiths.   The intolerance built into the Koran has not been changed, it has not had the Enlightenment, or anything;  it is stuck in the 6th century - and will not be changed, it cannot be changed - and there is the problem.

And reference to the 'troubles' in Ireland - that was surely more to do about 'uniting' Ireland - that the English should never have been in Northern Ireland, and the southern Irish wanted a reunited country.    Historically yes the Irish were Catholic, and the Northern Irish Protestant (because of English and Scottish settlers) - but the Irish wanted 'one country'....

As for Saddam - we should never have interfered;  but he wasn't going to be around for ever was he ?    Why try to blame the west for what's written in the Koran ?

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There are many interpretations of the Koran which we would call progressive but mainly I suspect because of fear of Western culture (eg Baywatch), there has been a growth in extreme interpretations, such as that women should be completely covered, etc.

Look at the Islam of Tunisia before the attempted takeover by the extremists; amongst the educated, women and men were on a very equal footing, most silly rules had fallen into abeyance or had been seen for what they were which is bullshit.
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[quote user="chessie"]Isn't the difference, though, that the Bible has been modified, revised and it's followers grown up;  moved on from the medieval times to a mature tolerance and understanding of other faiths.   The intolerance built into the Koran has not been changed, it has not had the Enlightenment, or anything;  it is stuck in the 6th century - and will not be changed, it cannot be changed - and there is the problem.

[/quote]

Well, Chessie, when I spoke to my OH about the beheadings, cutting off of hands, stoning to death, etc and how these actions are barbaric and from "the middle ages", he pointed out that yes, Islam was founded in the 7th century AD and so, if we deducted, 600 odd years from our time now, then indeed these folk ARE acting like us "Christians" would have done in the middle ages.  So he would be entirely in agreement with your point.

Incidentally, he HAS studied the koran in some depth and he tells me that everything being done now is indeed "all there", the establishment of a caliphate, the intolerance of everyone else's faith, etc.

Fundamentalist Christians are just as frightening but I don't think they have the same vast numbers of followers.

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Following complaints from several forum members I have removed the content from two posts in this thread because they used inappropriate language and appeared to be in breach of the Terms and Conditions which everyone agreed to when joining the forum. This action was taken after discussion with my fellow mods and the Forum Admin.

I have no wish to stifle free speech and I would hope this debate can be continued in a reasonable way without anyone resorting to personal abuse. I am aware that people are understandably disturbed by the recent violent incidents and that different people have different ideas on how to deal with this.

Please let's all of us continue this discussion in a civilised way.

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Yes - very good post Gluestick.

All I want to add is that there aren't many religions that are about tolerance and understanding. Most are about rules for living life.

But not many preach hate and killing nonconformists.

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In the cause of time, rather than revert to all  of your posts, people, I will do this in once,  if you don't mind.

Chessie: many thanks for your kind words; much  appreciated.

Chancer: I must remember that ploy!

Very trite. I like it!

I am friendly with a charming Iraqi lady for  whom I have acted, professionally.

She wears normal Western clothes and recently  even informed me she has stopped attending her  local Mosque as the Imam speaks nonsense.

Which, perhaps, tells us something.

PaulT: Thank you, I shall!

Interestingly, I spent considerable time in  Southern Ireland in the late 1970s and early 80s  working as a consultant on a major  agri-industry project. The CEO of the client  was a most charming man and deeply insightful  and self-educated. I learned much about "The  troubles" (Or, as they would say,"The  Thrubles!").

Whilst Julius Caesar tried, vainfully to  conquer Ireland he gave up and wrote something  along the lines "I would sooner try and tame  the waves of the sea, as conquer this strange  and warlike race!"

Ireland had a rich cultural heritage of language, literature and culture, despite their warlike propensity.

The English, acted despicably towards Ireland  and the Irish people. Absentee landlords  (invariably titled English aristocrats) treated  the Irish as serfs had been treated in medieval  times, keeping the peasants in total  subjugation and on the edge of starvation, by  charging extortionate rents for very poor land.

Traditionally, the Irish were Catholic and the  Protestants, imported to work in Belfast etc,  were mainly poor illiterates from the slums of  Glasgow etc. Catholics were excluded from  reasonable employment, purposively.

Perfidious Albion indeed.

To understand more of Ireland's troubled past,  an excellent work is the late Leon Uris's book  "Trinity". He visited Ireland with his wife, a  professional photographer and was outraged at  what he discovered which led to the book. A  novel but based on factual history.

The English factory, mill and shipyard owners,  created the internecine Catholic-Prod troubles,  purposely. In no way can the fight for freedom  by the Irish honestly be called a battle "in  the name of religion": in precisely the same  modality as Islam, the excuse of "religion"  clothes a more insidious selfish purpose.

The problem with religion, or faith, is men  interfere and warp these to their own narrow  self-interested purpose.

True faith is most assuredly about tolerance  and understanding.

alittlebitfrench: The root of most of the  instability and war in the Mid-Orient (to give  wat we popularly call the Middle East its  correct name) lies in World War One and  thereafter. One of my favourite research and  reference books on this is by Margaret  Macmillan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacemakers:_The_ Paris_Peace_Conference_of_1919_and_Its_Attempt_ to_End_War

To further complicate matters, from the late  1940s onwards Soviet Russia set out to cause  chaos and confusion as part of the geo-global  strategy of destabilisation. Remember, Egypt,  Syria and others were Soviet "Client States".

The USA further destabilised the region when  CIA fomented a rebellion and bloodless coup in  Iran, by toppling the moderate and  democratically elected PM, Mossadegh, and  foisting the pretender Shah onto the peacock  Throne in the early 1950s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Shah%27s_ Men

Americans love "Democracy", when it suits them! Dubya used to bang on about it all the time: all provided he had managed to boost his puppet into the hot seat...

The core problem has been OIL. In order to keep  the artificially constructed US economy  "growing", it just be remembered it is a  Banking-Industrial- Military Complex and this  needs vast quantities of oil and gas.

The US and UK invading a sovereign third party  state was an illegal act. Behind this was  Cheney's, Rumsfield and Papa Bush's (all oil  and gas industry men) determination to seize  Iraqi oil assets.

Indeed, the US Treasury and State Department  had calculated (Wrongly!) that the cost of the  war could be self-funded from crude oil  liftings. Would you believe Bush Jnr had  already let contracts to Haliburton and Bechtel  Corp (Largest civil engineers in the World)  PRIOR to seeking the permission of Congress and  the Senate to actually go to war?

An excellent analysis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Trillio n_Dollar_War

Joe Stiglitz is perhaps the smartest economist  alive today and one of my personal heroes.

Thus in short, there where and are many  disparate drivers to Fundamentalist Islam's  insanity. and I must agree with you, the West  is mainly to blame.

It was lovely when British, French, US, German  arms companies were coining zillions in fat  profits, arming lunatics who had lucked into  lakes of oil and gas under their desert sands.

It is not so much fun now...

Judith: Spot On.

The European medieval church was equally  culpable since it was intensely political and  venal.

chessie:
The bible hasn't actually been revised, the core text being, of course the King James authorised version, prepared over many diligent years by eminent leading scholars able to read fluently, Attic Greek, Aramaic, ancient Hebrew and Latin The New Testament and Christ's  ministry were a New Deal. Love and forgiveness  instead of the original Jewish law. Wildly  different.

Yes indeed: Islam is as you say" Stuck in the  sixth century". The words of The Prophet, are  considered absolute and inviolate.

Islam itself, has suffered more schisms even  than Christianity! The core problem today,  emanates from such as the Saudi Wahabism, sect.

Again the dichotomy: the West (US particularly)  are heavily dependant upon Saudi oil: yet it is  the Saudi Wahabists who are, covertly,  influencing global Islam by throwing their  massive largesse into funding mosques and  radicalism! Interesting tat just today, Manuel Valls, French PM has announced the French government are considering banning foreign funding of mosques..

Wooly- My Old Mate![:D]

Yes again. Afghanistan is an excellent  exemplar. The West, US particularly, funded the  Mujahadeen - the err, Freedom Fighters; who  became Taliban when Russia did a Vietnam and  left - arming them, funding them and training  them. To fight "Soviet imperialism". (When the  Soviets made the play, it was called  "Imperialism: when the US and UK et al made the  play it was called "Democracy!" Cynical Moi?  You bet!

Whereupon, the Taliban insisted women wore  Chador, foreswore makeup, couldn't drive, attend  school etc. Nice.

My wife and I spent a very pleasant day on a  large boat out of Corfu, years back, on a  lovely trip to the Greek mainland, in the  company of a charming Afghani couple. he and  his family had fled Afghanistan and bomb burst  into Canada, America and he himself, Germany.  he spoke fluent English and was a Dr of  Chemical Engineering. He explained all the  educated achievers had left, leaving simply the  illiterates who did precisely what the Imams  told them was Quranic fact. Only problem being  the Imams were illiterates, mainly.

Mint: main difference, surely, is  fundamentalist Christians tend to stick to  foaming at the mouth and preaching Hell and  Fire and Brimstone, rather than blowing people  up, shooting up nightclubs, beheading etc? OK; some might occasionally have fire-bombed abortion clinics.

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Gluestick,  thank you for your comprehensive, well reasoned, and infomative post.  Just what this discussion needs. 

And thank you for your compliment - the study of history is an ignored but vital part of knowing how we got to where we are today, and you ignore it at your peril.

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[quote user="Judith"]Gluestick,  thank you for your comprehensive, well reasoned, and infomative post.  Just what this discussion needs. 

And thank you for your compliment [/quote]

My pleasure. [:)]

[quote]...the study of history is an ignored but vital part of knowing how we got to where we are today, and you ignore it at your peril.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more, Judith!

I forget who wrote this, it is a favourite profound aphorism of mine.

" In order to understand the present and predict the future, we must firstly understand and study the past!"

Perhaps, politicians are amongst the worst for this: with so-called journalists a close second.

Much of what I have been involved in, professionally for many years, has been  in identifying trends; and building analyses for forward strategy. In order to do this, of course, one firstly needs to examine and evaluate the past...

“When the situation was manageable it was neglected, and now that it

is thoroughly out of hand we apply too late the remedies which then

might have effected a cure. There is nothing new in the story. It is as

old as the sibylline books. It falls into that long, dismal catalogue of

the fruitlessness of experience and the confirmed unteachability of

mankind. Want of foresight, unwillingness to act when action would be

simple and effective, lack of clear thinking, confusion of counsel until

the emergency comes, until self-preservation strikes its jarring

gong–these are the features which constitute the endless repetition of

history.”

W.Spencer Churchill

(House of Commons, 2 May 1935, after the Stresa Conference, in which

Britain, France and Italy agreed—futilely—to maintain the independence

of Austria.)

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Would that any of us could do as Churchill so wisely said.

In my life I am too often confronted with situations that could be addressed and hopefully sorted out, OR left to sort themselves out.

I have tried both, and ended up with worse situations than I suspected I would see.

And back to Mr Churchill, because re all these modern day problems in the middle east............ he was more than a little involved in the mapping, nay, carving up of these countries in the 1920's. In fact he was involved one way or another, in some very very bad things throughout his life, and for my grandmother even the war never redeemed him in her eyes, she born in 1879 and he in 1874.

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[quote user="mint"]Gluey, you mean it's better to have fire prevention measures in place than to fight the fire after it becomes an inferno?[:)]

[/quote]

Indeed I do, mint!

One of the core reasons why Britain and France are in such a mess, is professional politicians, are meant - we hoped - to be managing their countries. I wish!

Trend Analysis simply means predicting the short-term and long term future from empirical evidence (what has already happened perhaps more than once) and the extrapolation of future probability.

Whereas most failed businesses are so poorly managed their supposed executives are far too busy firefighting the problems they themselves created yesterday!

What If? modelling (scenarios) provides management tools well before they are needed, on a contingency basis.

Similarly to these poor executives, since the mid-1950s, far too many career politicians, are mainly spending their time spouting endless words to try and justify their own incompetence and lack of core focus; and finding "solutions" for the problems they themselves created.

Whilst the World around them goes to Hell in a hand basket.

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Not quite correct, idun.

If you read Margaret MacMillan's epic work I recommended, earlier (Peacemakers: The Paris Peace Conference), then it is easy to understand how and why the utter shambolic mess post WWI came about and also how WWII was created and caused. Mainly by the French President Clemanceau's insane demand and obdurate insistence of hugely excessive (And unaffordable) reparations from Germany.

You can also lay blame at the doors of David Lloyd George and Lord Curzon: additionally, Woodrow Wilson was more interested in his ideological concept of the League of Nations and hardly ever participated in this critical conference.

n.b."Margaret Olwen MacMillan, CC (born 23 December 1943) is a Canadian historian and professor at the University of Oxford, where she is Warden of St Antony's College. She is former provost of Trinity College and professor of history at the University of Toronto and previously at Ryerson University. A leading expert on history and international relations, MacMillan is a commentator in the media. She is a great-granddaughter of former British Prime Minister David Lloyd George."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_MacMillan

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Gluestick, is one of the problems with most politicians is that as Robin Day put it to John Nott that he was 'an here today and gone tomorrow politician'. So they try to give away goodies that cannot be afforded so they are well thought of and leave it to the next lot to pick up the pieces whilst they take up well paid directorships and consultancies.
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For any democratic politician there is always the temptation to do what is popular rather than what is right. Politicians are only human and are likely to have at least one eye on the next election so this is understandable but does not lead to good government. It has been said we get the government we deserve and there is an element of truth in this.

This inevitably leads to politicians taking a very short term view and putting too much importance on the views expressed in the media. With an issue such as terrorism I feel that if we are going to solve the problem we need to tackle the reasons that drive people to become extremists. To take a lesson from a century ago in Ireland the British response to the Easter Rebellion was counter-productive. Lets not make the same mistakes again.

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