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Brexit and Article 50


mint
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At last, there is now an official timetable for Brexit.

May has said she will trigger Article 50 by the end of March.  So, that gives us till April 2019 to be out of Europe.

So, what do people on the forum think of that agenda and, more importantly, what if anything, they are doing about their own personal situation?

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I have renewed my titre de séjour so it now says 'permanent'.

Whether it will become invalid after Brexit is a moot point, but I have gambled on it applying more to me as an individual than to me as a EU citizen.

I have  abandoned my idea of taking French nationality, since I am too old for it to make any difference to me personally  for any anything other than voting rights, although they are important.[:(] 

I am more worried about the very real possibility of the FN winning the Presidential election in France next year.

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And I am more worried about what Putin is getting up to in the Middle East.  That, too, could potentially have a massive impact on us all.

But, leaving aside all that wider picture and concentrating on little old us, my thinking is like yours in that it's time to do something instead of just thinking about doing something.

Now here is a little anecdote that has nothing much to do with Brexit as such but the parallels to be drawn is that survivors tend to act sooner rather than later.  A preemptive strike, as it were, rather than a reaction that might be just a little bit too late.

Anyway, (for those with bated breath ..........yes, I know not many if at all) here is the story and it's a true one.  Don't depend on me for names as I can't remember them:

There is a new opera based on the life-story of a Belgian man of Jewish origin who is now aged 84.  This man was a child of 11 years old when his mother pushed (maybe not literally) him off the train to Auchtswiz.  His mother and sister, who were also on the train, were subsequently gassed.  The boy somehow managed to dodge the guards and even found help and shelter with a family.  This morning, he was interviewed about his life in conjunction with publicity for the opera.

So, Norman, I guess that sometimes it IS better to act sooner rather than later.

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Over the weekend there was a good article in The Guardian explaining the in's and out's of Article 50 but try as I may I can't find it this morning. One part of it is what happens to EU citizens in the country that activates it (UK) and their "expats" within the EU and that this is negotiated as part of Article 50.

Edit, I found it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/02/article-50-timescale-theresa-may-brexit

The there is this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/british-expats-challenge-eu-head-over-claim-he-banned-negotiations-with-uk-over-brexit

It does seem that these people are more interested in keeping any benefits (I take that to mean benefits claimed in the UK that can be paid to you if you live elsewhere in the EU).

I think the most important question would be what happens about healthcare rather than benefits as that will have an effect on a much larger group and is their biggest worry.

I would have thought the system for dealing with S1's is the most simplest think to keep because the system is already there and functioning. Knowing France and it's ability to employ a 100 functionaires when only one would do there must be at least four or five hundred functionaires involved in running this all of who could potentially lose their jobs if it goes. It would also probably cost them a fortune to "disconnect" the system as well.

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Fair deal for Expats indeed!

What an appalling group of people.

Apart from the silly name they are basing their opposition to Juncker on a translation rather than on the original text[:D]

As far as Health care is concerned the S1 system only concerns who pays.

Under PUMA (or the AME for the worst-off) people still  get treatment.

The S1 ensures that the UK pays for certain groups  but if that ceased to exist retired people would just continue to pay a % of their income to the PUMA as already happens to  Brits living here under  retirement age.

So it comes down to a demanding that UK residents continue to pay for the healthcare of those who have chosen to go and live in a country which has a system based on paying contributions.    Fair deal for whom?

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Of course the S1 issue affects expats all over Europe, not just in France. In France as you say they will be able to join the system so will not be left high and dry, albeit it may cost them a little more out of their own pockets. But is this the case in all EU countries, do you know? Will Brit retirees living in Spain, Portugal or wherever, also be able to join the national healthcare system?
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I was under the impression that prior to 2007 people who were under 65 but had retired to France paid a percentage of their income for healthcare. Then the rules changed and this agreement would cease but after a lot of fighting and some UK government intervention it was decided that those already paying could continue to do so but those that arrived after that date would either have to work and contribute or get private health insurance. I seem to remember there was quite a fuss about this. So those not getting a UK state pension will not be in the French system and there is, unless they arrived pre 2007/8, no mechanism for them to join it other than to work.

Certainly a worry for my dad who will get his UK pension in about 10 years but is currently paying into the French system via his business. You would like to think his contribution to the French system would not go unnoticed and rewarded but I doubt it. It will more likely be thanks a lot now go home. It's not knowing that's the killer. If you knew then you could plan ahead.

As somebody said it's not just expats in France, I suspect there are a lot in Spain in the same boat. I also wonder what with the collapse of the pound against just about every world currency (except the Zimbabwean dollar and Russian Ruble) that some that have their income created in the UK are wondering if they can actually afford to live in Europe (and elsewhere) anymore and what with the S1 will consider selling up and coming back to the UK.
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Please be careful of half-digested rumours spread on Anglophone Fora and Facebook pages.

Look at what the official French site says:

PUMA is for all residents:

Les bénéficiaires

A partir du 1er janvier 2016, toute personne qui travaille ou réside

en France de manière stable et régulière relève de la protection maladie

universelle et bénéficie à ce titre du droit à la prise en charge de

ses frais de santé :

 Les

personnes qui travaillent n’ont plus à justifier d’une activité

minimale, seul l’exercice d’une activité professionnelle est pris en

compte.

 Pour

les personnes sans activité professionnelle, elles bénéficient de la

prise en charge de leurs frais de santé au seul titre de leur résidence

stable et régulière en France, à savoir résider en France depuis au

moins 3 mois à l’ouverture des droits puis au moins 6 mois par an.

Quelles cotisations devront-ils payer ?

Les cotisations dépendent de la situation et des ressources.

 L’assuré a une activité professionnelle : rien ne change, les cotisations maladies sont calculées en fonction de son revenu

 L’assuré est sans activité avec un revenu du capital supérieur à 9 654 € en 2016 : il est redevable de la cotisation subsidiaire maladie

 L’assuré est une personne sans activité ou avec des ressources faibles : il n’a aucune cotisation subsidiaire maladie à régler

 L’assuré est retraité  : il n’a aucune cotisation subsidiaire maladie à régler

 Pour les personnes sans activité concernées :

la cotisation subsidiaire maladie est automatiquement calculée suite à

la déclaration de revenus grâce aux informations transmises à

l’administration fiscale : il n’y a aucune démarche à effectuer.

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Things have indeed changed, which is why Norman kindly reproduced that article for us. It was also mentioned in previous threads on the subject earlier this year.

I should also say that when I brought up the subject of acting sooner rather than later in this thread in May:

http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance-forums/cs/forums/3370760/ShowPost.aspx

I was haranged by one member of the forum as 'scaremongering'!! Doubt whether he's saying the same things now.
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Well it is all turning into a right cod's piece really. Clearly the ministers who are leading the teams sealing with Brexit don't even have a clue how the EU works and what is in Article 50 judging by newspaper articles and the TV news. I mean it's taking the pi** when EU commissioners suggest they come over and explain it to them face to face in English.

Hay's latest comment about getting rid of the European Act that makes us accept all EU legislation and law yet she will imbed all the current EU laws into UK which a) I thought they were anyway and b) I thought that's exactly what the "leavers" didn't want because they effect our "sovereignty" with these "stupid" laws.

Seems clear to me that the Tories are after the now defunct Ukip vote which if they get will keep them in power for the next 10 or 15 years with a massive majority which is not healthy in my opinion.

As to hunt pledging to get rid of overseas doctors, well welcome to world of 12 year hospital waits and DIY hip replacements on the kitchen table.
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I think you are failing to understand the enormity and complexity of the legal issues CT.

I see May's statement about repeal of the European Act as a simple and pragmatic solution whereby no new EU legislation need to enacted in the UK.

Similarly retaining current laws that are expressions of EU directives is also a pragmatic move. One lawyer before the vote suggested that there was 20 - 40 years work to go through all EU based or driven legislation and put in a UK version thereof. Even if that was a serious overstatement, to simply repeal the lot would leave vast areas with no effective legislation whatsoever. Think about labour legislation. So much of what exists today is based on EU rules that to a situation that most would find unacceptable:

working hours - no limits and employer could demand a 60 hour week if he wanted

Holiday pay - no requirements

maternity and paternity leave - no legislation

security of employment - no legislation

TUPE - ditto

etc..

And you cannot even go back to pre-1971 legislation since much of that was repealed as part of the enactment of the new laws.

and so it goes on
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[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Things have indeed changed, which is why Norman kindly reproduced that article for us. It was also mentioned in previous threads on the subject earlier this year.

I should also say that when I brought up the subject of acting sooner rather than later in this thread in May:

http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance-forums/cs/forums/3370760/ShowPost.aspx

I was haranged by one member of the forum as 'scaremongering'!! Doubt whether he's saying the same things now.[/quote]

DD, I revisited the thread that you mention here and it's rather a long and involved thread but my interest was certainly heightened as I read the various posts.

If "a week is a long time in politics", three months (the 3 since the referendum) is an eternity!

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On the contrary Andy and that's the point many who voted to leave and stand outside parliament with their "Leave Now" T shirts and banners don't seem to understand. The same can be said of Boris, Gove and Farage which is why I say I doubt they even understand Article 50 and what's involved.

Personally I don't think that two years will be enough because of the way the EU is woven into just about everything you touch in the UK now. It certainly won't please a certain section of those that voted to leave. It will be like trying to unravel a giant ball of wool the size of a house.

What is more alarming is Mays intention to leave the ECHR. Whilst I agree to the right of the UK to expel known terrorist supporters who emigrated to the UK and blocking the entry of known criminals, terrorists etc. I do fear that it will remove a higher level that protects us and our rights from our own government should they attempt to abuse us in any way.
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 It is all a pig's breakfast anyway, even if you exclude the brexit thingy from the equation.

I am fairly sure that France does not really abide by EU law with regards to health care anyway, and that was before the brexit vote.

And this idea is  broached,yet again, that those that voted for leaving the EU had not thought it through appals me. People do think, (not all, I grant you) but people do think and people also realised hat there may be an adjustment period whereby things get worse before they got better. And frankly why should the mass in the UK, be bothered about those that chose to live elsewhere, note, I say 'chose'. Non residents  should be way down the list of things to sort out, as it is all a  very very complicated divorce.

And I could be affected a lot by all this, I have no idea what is going to happen, french income living in the UK, who knows how it will play out, as we should be far down any 'to do' list too. Why get het up about it all.

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I listened to an interview with David Davies a while ago on the question of what to do about the fact that 40 years of legislation was entangled in EU law. He was asked why we couldn't just adopt the whole lot into Uk law and he replied something like 'well I thought that at first, but apparently it's a bit more complicated than that because of the way UK relates to EU law'.

Now this is the man who campaigned as a politician, for the UK to leave the EU and yet he didn't have the first clue about the implications of this..be they ideological or just plain practical.

Actually I think that those of us that chose to live elsewhere and have income in euros are in a lot safer place than those who are stuck in the UK.
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Cathar Tours

Certainly a worry for my dad who will get his UK pension in about 10

years but is currently paying into the French system via his business.

You would like to think his contribution to the French system would not

go unnoticed and rewarded but I doubt it. It will more likely be thanks a

lot now go home.

If he is paying into the French system by working he is presumably already covered by the côtisations he pays.

In turn when he retires he will get a French pension in addition to anything he gets from the UK, and if he continues to live in France it is France that will be responsible for paying for his health care.

He may well have to pay some contributions such as CSG as I do.

I have covered this before in other threads.

Where does the idea "

You would like to think his contribution to the French system would not

go unnoticed and rewarded but I doubt it. It will more likely be thanks a

lot now go home
." Come from?

In terms of official French textes I mean..

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Well Idun I don't have quite the same faith in people you do. I was reading the Sunderland Echo with regards to Nissan and their announcement to stop investment in the UK until they see the outcome of the Article 50. They have also said they would expect any EU import tariffs placed on their UK exports (about 80% of them) to the EU to be paid for by the UK government (that's the UK tax payer) . There was also a threat of closing the Sunderland plant although not a serious one at this stage. Anyway the comments were quite interesting ranging from "at least we will be free of the EU" probably from non Nissan workers to "Nobody told us this could happen" more likely from Nissan employees. Well excuse me they did because most of the Japanese car manufactures in the UK gave a hint prior to the referendum.

Nissan is in partnership with Renault, they already have manufacturing plants of their own in four locations in Spain and they have access to the Renault plants in Spain, Belgium and Slovenia. Nisan supports 80,000 workers in the UK both directly and indirectly.

Toyota and Honda have said nothing so far after the referendum but they also have partnerships with other EU manufactures and produce cars in other EU countries.

Just to finish on cars and the stupidity of some. "If the EU put tariffs on UK made cars the we will do the same, the Germans won't like that one bit as we import more from the EU than we export". Well as a percentage of imports to the UK we do but as far as exports from the EU is concerned only around 8% of their goods. Likewise the biggest German car imports to the UK are high end cars, the ones people like to pose with and they won't bat an eye if they have to pay 15% more for their Merc, Porsche or Audi because it is all about their "status" and the money comes in second. As for VW Golf's (if anyone still wants to buy one) the latest model is made in Buebla Mexico so no change in price there. So no it won't frighten the Germans a lot, just a little perhaps but not a deal breaker.
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It is unwise to take anything for granted. In 2008 we had been living in France for 5 years. When the problems with expat health cover via the CMU arose in 2008, a single fonctionnaire simply cancelled both Carte Vitales, sent a terse letter to say so and the cards just stopped working. A flick of the fonctionnaire's wrist is all it takes.
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That's the thing, it's down to local interpretation and why you see so many conflicts on the forum. The latest bit on Social Charges reclaims for 2015 is an example and also how people from different parts of France were treated concerning their previous years reclaims. My dad says that even if you print off the legislation etc. from the Legifrance website and wave that in front of them they will sometimes ignore it.
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